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Thread: Not By Works

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    I agree with all you said here. But that does not mean we have to keep the Law now. The Christ kept it perfectly, and that has been imputed unto us, and now its as if we have kept the Law perfectly, being in the Christ.
    That is where we differ.. I believe we Keep it because that is what Christ Teaches and instructs us to do.. and states those that Love Him Keep His Commands.. they obey Him. That is Faith that worketh by Love because we are Loved and forgiven.. I don't feel condemned now GOD Imputed Righteousness through Faith in Christ unto me.. I feel Blessed and new inwardly and free to Love and obey the Messiah's Testament forever grateful that the Lord saved me.

    The New incorruptible seed is Christ within... all a gift of GOD that I treasure, because I know I did nothing to deserve.. I Repented and believed and continue to believe by the Power and Love of GOD.
    Last edited by loveme1; 1 Week Ago at 05:16 AM.

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    I think what my inner really feels and desires to articulate here...yet it is written for us all to agree:

    Romans 8


    12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    That is where we differ.. I believe we Keep it because that is what Christ Teaches and instructs us to do.. and states those that Love Him Keep His Commands.. they obey Him.
    1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    I already discussed the Greek word for "keep" with you which is "tereo," which does not imply sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to all of Christ's commands, yet it does emphasize that those who truly know God display the habit of obedience. This obedience does not bring about salvation, but obedience as a pattern of life gives evidence that one has been born again.

    That is Faith that worketh by Love because we are Loved and forgiven.. I don't feel condemned now GOD Imputed Righteousness through Faith in Christ unto me.. I feel Blessed and new inwardly and free to Love and obey the Messiah's Testament forever grateful that the Lord saved me.
    The righteousness of God is imputed through faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) and not by commandment keeping. Authentic faith is manifested by works produced as a result of the transforming, regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Those works are expressions of the love of God that has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5).

    The New incorruptible seed is Christ within... all a gift of GOD that I treasure, because I know I did nothing to deserve.. I Repented and believed and continue to believe by the Power and Love of GOD.
    I like the way you said, "by the Power and Love of GOD." We have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God (1 Peter 1:23). Believers have nothing to boast about (Ephesians 2:8,9) but so much to be thankful for!
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    I already discussed the Greek word for "keep" with you which is "tereo," which does not imply sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to all of Christ's commands, yet it does emphasize that those who truly know God display the habit of obedience. This obedience does not bring about salvation, but obedience as a pattern of life gives evidence that one has been born again.

    The righteousness of God is imputed through faith (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) and not by commandment keeping. Authentic faith is manifested by works produced as a result of the transforming, regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Those works are expressions of the love of God that has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5).

    I like the way you said, "by the Power and Love of GOD." We have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God (1 Peter 1:23). Believers have nothing to boast about (Ephesians 2:8,9) but so much to be thankful for!
    Salvation brings obedience... Saved unto good works ordained by GOD through His Son's Testament.. GOD requires obedience to His Law.. and provides us with a New Holy Spirit that is subject to His Law.

    When we are taught to Keep the Commandments and be perfect and righteous.. know you not that you are to Believe.. that is the Faith of Abraham...

    Abraham believed GOD and it was Imputed unto him for Righteousness.

    Do you see then that if the Lord states we are to be perfect we are to believe Him?

    Likewise when He states those that Love Him Keep His Commands we are to believe.

    Our belief means we are to be doers of the Royal Law.. but it is through belief that GOD works through us...

    The Just shall live by Faith.. is to hear, believe and do..


    Faith is perfected by works.. not our own works but the work the Lord requires of us through His Testament.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    Salvation brings obedience...
    Yes, obedience is the fruit of salvation.

    Saved unto good works ordained by GOD through His Son's Testament..
    Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    GOD requires obedience to His Law.. and provides us with a New Holy Spirit that is subject to His Law.
    What Law is that? How much obedience does God require and to what purpose?

    When we are taught to Keep the Commandments and be perfect and righteous.. know you not that you are to Believe.. that is the Faith of Abraham...
    Did Abraham keep the Commandments? God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses and Abraham was before Moses. Perfect as in "absolute" perfection (sinless) or as in "relative" perfection/mature? Faith is accounted to believers for righteousness (Romans 4:5-6). Apart from faith and imputed righteousness, we are not righteous.

    Abraham believed GOD and it was Imputed unto him for Righteousness.
    Amen! (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

    Do you see then that if the Lord states we are to be perfect we are to believe Him?
    Is that how you define "BELIEVES IN HIM" in such verses as John 3:15,16,18? Be perfect, as in sinless, 100% of the time and such people shall not perish but have eternal life? You seem to re-define terms which leads to much confusion.

    Likewise when He states those that Love Him Keep His Commands we are to believe.
    So are you suggesting that "Keep His Commands" means sinless/absolute perfect obedience to ALL of His Commands 100% of the time? That's what we are to believe?

    Our belief means we are to be doers of the Royal Law.. but it is through belief that GOD works through us...
    Believers fulfill the Royal Law by loving our neighbor as ourself, which is a manifestation of our belief, yet belief is not defined as being doers of the Royal Law. Faith is believing and obedience which follows is WORKS.

    The Just shall live by Faith.. is to hear, believe and do..
    Faith is not defined as do. To do is the fruit of faith, not the essence of faith. Believers live by Faith and good works are produced "out of" faith, but are not the essence of faith.

    Faith is perfected by works.. not our own works but the work the Lord requires of us through His Testament.
    Faith perfected by works does not mean that we are saved by faith AND works. Faith perfected by works (James 2:22) means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his work of offering up Isaac in Genesis 22. (*See Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). When Abraham performed the work of offering up Isaac in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizikyah View Post
    Do we want to follow them?

    and

    Is wanting to follow them a sign that one is apart of the new/renewed covenant ratified in the blood of Yahshua/Jesus?

    Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

    Even if you wanted to. You could not. And even if you did, you would still fall short.

    The law says do not commit adultry, I can never sleep with another woman, thus by the letter. I have obeyed that law. Yet Jesus said if I look at another woman in lust, I have commited adultry. So in obeying the letter. I have broken the spirit.

    The. Law is not given to show you how to be righteous, that was never its purpose, its purpose was to lead us to christ.

    You want to know how to be morally upright? It is not by the law of moses, it is by the law of Love (love God and your neighbor, which includes your enemy) and follow or seek after the things of the spirit.

    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    Paul is teaching the New in place of the Old.. it appears many were being bewitched to Keep the Old Covenant and be circumcised.. and once you circumcise your flesh you make void the Law of Faith which is the New Covenant.

    GOD's Law is written on our heart and put in our mind .. that is the New Covenant through His Son's Testament.
    You forgot a very important point Paul made.

    Gal 5: 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

    it is not just circumcision, That was just the part Paul had to argue against, It could be any part of the law. If you add it to grace, your indebted to keep the whole law.

    And as James said also. If we break even the smallest part of the law. We are guilty of the whole law. So james agrees


    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Yes, obedience is the fruit of salvation.

    Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    What Law is that? How much obedience does God require and to what purpose?

    Did Abraham keep the Commandments? God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses and Abraham was before Moses. Perfect as in "absolute" perfection (sinless) or as in "relative" perfection/mature? Faith is accounted to believers for righteousness (Romans 4:5-6). Apart from faith and imputed righteousness, we are not righteous.

    Amen! (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

    Is that how you define "BELIEVES IN HIM" in such verses as John 3:15,16,18? Be perfect, as in sinless, 100% of the time and such people shall not perish but have eternal life? You seem to re-define terms which leads to much confusion.

    So are you suggesting that "Keep His Commands" means sinless/absolute perfect obedience to ALL of His Commands 100% of the time? That's what we are to believe?

    Believers fulfill the Royal Law by loving our neighbor as ourself, which is a manifestation of our belief, yet belief is not defined as being doers of the Royal Law. Faith is believing and obedience which follows is WORKS.

    Faith is not defined as do. To do is the fruit of faith, not the essence of faith. Believers live by Faith and good works are produced "out of" faith, but are not the essence of faith.

    Faith perfected by works does not mean that we are saved by faith AND works. Faith perfected by works (James 2:22) means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his work of offering up Isaac in Genesis 22. (*See Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). When Abraham performed the work of offering up Isaac in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
    I won't address all for my beliefs and your beliefs can stand like that.. all is well.

    But I will address the Royal Law and that you share the second like it and not the Great.. which is to Love GOD.

    Now i would not make an image or bow myself to a statue.. or worship any creation for my First Love is GOD and I will neither use GOD's name in vain.. for this is not pleasing to Him.. and all this I know through the 10 Commandments and likewise I know that if I commit adultery I love not my husband.. and so on.. the base is the 10 of the Royal law.. which is actually taught that to even look on another with lust is sin.. No surprise we are taught to Love.. and love is a verb..

    The Sabbath day rest is really the 1 that we view either as Christ gives us rest so that is the New Sabbath for Christians or we Love GOD and Keep the Sabbath holy which means separate. Which when one is under Grace at liberty without condemnation is a delight and not a burden.

    And if we all serve GOD with a clear conscience through Christ then we certainly can't say to one another.. if you keep it your are destined to be told to depart or if you don't keep it you will die...

    The Lord gave His Testament and we build our house upon..

    We either Believe or we don't but the day of stoning each other ended and we should seek peace not condemnation.. for GOD sets us apart from the world through Christ our Lord.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    I won't address all for my beliefs and your beliefs can stand like that.. all is well.

    But I will address the Royal Law and that you share the second like it and not the Great.. which is to Love GOD.

    Now i would not make an image or bow myself to a statue.. or worship any creation for my First Love is GOD and I will neither use GOD's name in vain.. for this is not pleasing to Him.. and all this I know through the 10 Commandments and likewise I know that if I commit adultery I love not my husband.. and so on.. the base is the 10 of the Royal law.. which is actually taught that to even look on another with lust is sin.. No surprise we are taught to Love.. and love is a verb..

    The Sabbath day rest is really the 1 that we view either as Christ gives us rest so that is the New Sabbath for Christians or we Love GOD and Keep the Sabbath holy which means separate. Which when one is under Grace at liberty without condemnation is a delight and not a burden.

    And if we all serve GOD with a clear conscience through Christ then we certainly can't say to one another.. if you keep it your are destined to be told to depart or if you don't keep it you will die...

    The Lord gave His Testament and we build our house upon..

    We either Believe or we don't but the day of stoning each other ended and we should seek peace not condemnation.. for GOD sets us apart from the world through Christ our Lord.
    You are quoting the "two Great Commands" from Jesus in Matthew 22:37-39. I was quoting the Royal Law, which is found in James 2:8 - If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. You never did answer my question from a previous post, in which I asked you exactly how you "keep the Sabbath day?"
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    You forgot a very important point Paul made.

    Gal 5: 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.

    it is not just circumcision, That was just the part Paul had to argue against, It could be any part of the law. If you add it to grace, your indebted to keep the whole law.

    And as James said also. If we break even the smallest part of the law. We are guilty of the whole law. So james agrees



    James states if we break one we are guilty of all.. yet He also states we should be doers of the Royal law and to say and act as those to be judged by the law of Liberty... was He not affirming the Royal law and that if we have respect of the rich person and treat the poor differently we are not fulfilling the Royal law.. for who can behave this way if they Love GOD? None like John states do not say you love GOD if you hate your brother.. likewise if we respect the rich man and neglect the poor judging him less worthy to have a seat than the rich man we are commiting sin.. the Royal Law really is of Love indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    You are quoting the "two Great Commands" from Jesus in Matthew 22:37-39. I was quoting the Royal Law, which is found in James 2:8 - If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. You never did answer my question from a previous post, in which I asked you exactly how you "keep the Sabbath day?"
    The Royal Law is given through the Messiah's Testament.

    It is a day that I will not work for self gain.. but it is lawful to do good and I delight that it was made for me and can rest like GOD intended it for... and think not it is one day where I think I should do good and not the other six.. Christ's work is a way of life but the Sabbath was given to be a Blessing and He is the Lord of.


    Those that work the Sabbath shift work etc that is between you and GOD may no legalist try to impose, we each use our liberty to Love and serve. I have shared this only because I was asked by mailman.. and take it not as a do as I do.. GOD forbid!

    My dearest friend and I both Keep Sabbath but neither us have ever asked how or what..




    before anyone one wants to tell me I break it and remind me of the man stoned for collecting sticks.. please be reminded that I'm under Grace at liberty.. so try not to condemn and tell me I'm guilty of breaking it.. not for my sake but for your own..

    Please don't picture me laying down too scared to move lest I die... and remember that Faith that worketh by love means whatever you do is to GOD..

    If the burden is not a delight then ask for understanding and comfort. May GOD cast out the fear.

    Faith, Justice and Mercy... as taught by the Lord.

    Yes you can not keep the Sabbath to the letter.. would we even know the exact time or day? But the Spirit that believes can.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    James states if we break one we are guilty of all.. yet He also states we should be doers of the Royal law and to say and act as those to be judged by the law of Liberty... was He not affirming the Royal law and that if we have respect of the rich person and treat the poor differently we are not fulfilling the Royal law.. for who can behave this way if they Love GOD? None like John states do not say you love GOD if you hate your brother.. likewise if we respect the rich man and neglect the poor judging him less worthy to have a seat than the rich man we are commiting sin.. the Royal Law really is of Love indeed.
    Jesus called love a new commandment, It was not the old.

    James said we should be like christ. And people who are Gods children have this desire. Yet they must grow. A believer does not become a super Christian once they are saved, they become a babe, which has to rely on God to grow them, much as we had to rely on our parents.

    Once again, The law will not make you righteous, It was never intended for that.

    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Just to add the more I do on Friday the less I have to do on Sabbath.. example clean and buy provisions.. the more rest I have.. or more time to to good whatever GOD brings my way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Jesus called love a new commandment, It was not the old.

    James said we should be like christ. And people who are Gods children have this desire. Yet they must grow. A believer does not become a super Christian once they are saved, they become a babe, which has to rely on God to grow them, much as we had to rely on our parents.

    Once again, The law will not make you righteous, It was never intended for that.


    John 13:34King James Version (KJV)

    34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.





    Indeed because this Love for each other takes on a new meaning with the: as I have loved you.

    Now this affirms what I have shared..

    Yes.. it is an ongoing growing in Grace and knowledge of Christ.. all by the power of GOD.

    Now have i said the law makes me righteous?

    Because if that was the case then the Jews would be righteous.. we both know what the difference is.. and that is the Messiah... the Old condemned us all and through the New the Messiah saves those that believe.



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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    I think what my inner really feels and desires to articulate here...yet it is written for us all to agree:

    Romans 8


    12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Now THERE is where the emphasis belongs, good point.
    loveme1 likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthTalk View Post
    You were the lucky one, "rude and insulting" the reason she was banned
    Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
    Just curious, how do you know this?
    Did you ever answer this? Last time I checked you had not. Save me the trouble of wading through more pages of posts to see if you answered and point me to your answer, if you don't mind. I want to know how you know the reason Fran got banned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    Now THERE is where the emphasis belongs, good point.
    The sons of GOD?

    For my Spirit cries Abba Though it is housed in a female vessel .. Matthew 22:30 comes to mind

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    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    How much obedience does God require...?
    Let's turn the tables on your theology: How much disobedience will He not allow?

    Of course, you have to say 'all', because you are OSAS. Yet it is claimed that OSAS is not a license to sin. But if you want to draw a line for us somewhere--just as we are often asked to do so in regard to obedience--then do so.
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    We have had a peaceful time today.. refreshing for this thread.
    Rosemaryx likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
    Let's turn the tables on your theology: How much disobedience will He not allow?

    Of course, you have to say 'all', because you are OSAS. Yet it is claimed that OSAS is not a license to sin. But if you want to draw a line for us somewhere--just as we are often asked to do so in regard to obedience--then do so.
    Jesus drew the line in the sand on receiving eternal life in John 3:18 and John drew the line in the sand on obedience in 1 John 3:7-10.
    eternally-gratefull and PHart like this.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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