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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #39261
    He_reigns
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
    Anybody can fake anything. Except the love of God. But a person won't believe that until they know what the love of God looks like. Nobody can fake God's sacrificial love. That's why it's the distinguishing mark of the true believer. Not former believer, but the present believer.
    Yes this is the result of Justification found in Romans 5:1-5, especially Vs 5. Some challenge the notion you cannot tell the difference because maybe the love of God has not been poured into them as much as they think it has.

    Love never fails. Simple statement but very much under appreciated by the church today and the super secret sauce to empowering grace
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by He_reigns View Post
    Hebrews 5:14

    People love to say they cannot know the heart of another, only God does, but that does not line up anywhere in the Bible. A solid and truly called Pastor of God will know the sheep he was sent to shepherd.

    The issue is the church today do not want true shepherds they want a milkman and a pat on the head and their ears tickled.

    Most today could probably not sit under a truly anointed and sent Shepherd, because he would love you from a distance and not be shy about speaking into your life and letting you know mano e mano what you need to change in your spiritual life.

    There is a difference between Godly sorrow and worldly sorrow as 2 Cor 7 see's it and a called, sent and anointed shepherd can spot the difference. The largest difference is seeing, discerning, and celebrating the small victories over sin and spiritual growth the true believers life. While no victory or spiritual growth is found in the one giving lip service.

    Many like you seem to think this is judgement, but confuse it with discernment and this is because we do not like teaching or preaching about spiritual growth, we like to take the easy road and suggest there is a passive work happening in us, which is just another lie. You do not grow spiritually by passive work. Certain doctrines love preaching passive work inside of you. It takes all the responsibility for spiritual growth off the saint and places it on Jesus. I cannot find that anywhere in my Bible.

    Timothy knew his sheep and Paul gave him very solid instructions for keeping the sheep in 1 and 2 Timothy. Most today are to think skinned and babe in Christ to receive from a true shepherd.
    "Most today' are to, "think skinned and babe in Christ" to receive from a true shepherd."

    Criticism after Criticism of God precious children who no doubt went through many trial's before God saved them, but not you. Their is no Grace in your words only a harsh judgment on Gods Children. And who has ever said, "you cannot know the heart of another person"; pure nonsense, your heart is very obvious by the words you speak.

    You say, The Church wants a 'Milk Man', a pat on the head and their ear's tickled." What rubbish are your words, you must have had a troubled childhood. And who are you to criticize the Church and God's Children.

    Quote: He_reigns

    "People love to say 'they cannot know the heart of another', only God does," (oh yes we can)

    Apparently 'we know your heart', by what you speak so that your statement has "no truth" in it.
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  3. #39263
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    God put on this earth to do good works, but just because we mess up God is not gonna send us to hell.
    For by grace we have been saved not by works lest any man should boast Ephesians2:8-9 New King James Version
    Romans6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord New King James Version
    I thank God for loving me and dying for me. If it wasn't for his grace and mercy we would all be in hell. God is a good God and we are so blessed because of his love for us. It's a good feeling to know that I'm forgiven.
    There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Who do not walk according to the flesh, but to the Spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
    To God be the Glory
    Preacha24-7(Evangelist to the Streets )

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    I might humbly suggest we all have works. To say otherwise seems foolish. Passover (Grace) has spiritually happened before the foundation of the world.

    Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    This "Grace" has come to all men no matter who they are or what they have done. Mankind's action had nothing to do with God's Grace.

    This was part of God's plan from the very beginning.

    Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
    4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

    Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    There was an Old Covenant that fore shadowed this truth called the "Levitical Priesthood". It was comprised of several ceremonies and sacrificial "deeds or works" performed by the Levite Priest's for the remission and justification of sins. Jesus is now our High Priest and has "fulfilled" these "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

    Paul is speaking to this in:

    Romans 3.1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
    2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. (Which also included the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for remission of sins.)

    But now we have Christ's Blood once and for all. No more need of the "Old Covenant" for remission of sins, we now have faith(obedience).

    Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law (Levitical Priesthood ceremonies and sacrificial observances) there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    The law shows us the definition of sin, it can't forgive us of our sin.

    Passover (Grace) is not the end of God's Salvation for mankind, it is the beginning.

    This is why Jesus said to "Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness". And what do we do when we find HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS? Well I would say ignoring it is not the right answer. Paul explained what happened to the Mainstream, God of Abraham preaching" Church of his time.

    Rom. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    Everyone has works.
    The question is, are they from God or man?
    Last edited by Studyman; 1 Week Ago at 01:19 PM.

  5. #39265
    Senior Member BillG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueHebrew3 View Post
    Answer the question, what laws can't be followed?
    You asked the question for which you have he answer.

    Maybe you can give your answer to enlighten people who frankly have no idea what you are trying to say.
    Lord

    Help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueHebrew3 View Post
    You know why, because there is not one law or commandment that is too hard to keep, edomite.
    No, you don't keep them, nothing that I said was false because I used the words of TMH God, that's the difference between you and me I use scriptures you use your carnal mind. If you speak to me, speak with the oricales of TMH.
    You make no sense at all.

    It seems to me that you have no interest in dialogue but are only interested in pushing what your theology is.
    And to be honest it comes across as so extreme and controlling its that of a cult.

    You call someone an Edomite because they disagree with you, then accuse to not know the words of tmh god.
    That you use scripture and they use their carnal mind.
    Then you say if you speak to me then speak to me with th oricales of tmh.

    You do come across as agressive and oppressive with no regard for anyone else and what they think. You reject it out of hand.

    Your spiritual status states “Unsure” yet you come accross as if you are sure and others are wrong.

    So for the sake trying to get to know you with a view to a cordial discussion

    Why is your spiritual status unsure when it is clear that you know what you believe?
    How have you come to those beliefs, what church do you go to?
    Where does one get the tmh words of god?
    Why are the tmh words of god different from the words of God in the OT & the NT. The words that Jesus the Son of God which are in the NT.

    Why are you a true Hebrew. Are there other Hebrews or are not true Hebrews?

    Bill
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    Lord

    Help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

  7. #39267
    Senior Member joefizz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    You make no sense at all.

    It seems to me that you have no interest in dialogue but are only interested in pushing what your theology is.
    And to be honest it comes across as so extreme and controlling its that of a cult.

    You call someone an Edomite because they disagree with you, then accuse to not know the words of tmh god.
    That you use scripture and they use their carnal mind.
    Then you say if you speak to me then speak to me with th oricales of tmh.

    You do come across as agressive and oppressive with no regard for anyone else and what they think. You reject it out of hand.

    Your spiritual status states “Unsure” yet you come accross as if you are sure and others are wrong.

    So for the sake trying to get to know you with a view to a cordial discussion

    Why is your spiritual status unsure when it is clear that you know what you believe?
    How have you come to those beliefs, what church do you go to?
    Where does one get the tmh words of god?
    Why are the tmh words of god different from the words of God in the OT & the NT. The words that Jesus the Son of God which are in the NT.

    Why are you a true Hebrew. Are there other Hebrews or are not true Hebrews?

    Bill
    Out of curiosity,I looked up what TMH,stands for and it stands for The Most High,also found a very dull video of possibly stoned individuals taking forever to talk about God,and sounding so convicted and so sure that they were telling the truth,but considering there was no joy,I cannot believe their teachings to be true,God is someone that you are "Joyous"serve if one is going to be gloomy and dull then they have not known God in my opinion because,God's word is like a fire to one's self,to where you will be glad to tell of it,not sad and miserable,just an educated guess from me that this is just more "false doctrine".
    We are all family in God's eyes,so please at least try to get along,sincerely, a child of God.

  8. #39268
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Just landed in Dallas from a 15.5 hour flight from Sydney......feeling a little jet lag my migos.....good to see the stance for truth against the workers for and Christ deniers still going strong....!

  9. #39269
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    I agree with all you said here. But that does not mean we have to keep the Law now. The Christ kept it perfectly, and that has been imputed unto us, and now its as if we have kept the Law perfectly, being in the Christ.
    Amen....many miss this for sure...and go about to establish their own righteousness dia works and attempted law keeping

  10. #39270
    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Just landed in Dallas from a 15.5 hour flight from Sydney......feeling a little jet lag my migos.....good to see the stance for truth against the workers for and Christ deniers still going strong....!
    praiseYah you made it safe!

    SO I have to ask, is everyone that believes following the Commandments a "worker"?
    dcontroversal likes this.
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


  11. #39271
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    Even if you wanted to. You could not. And even if you did, you would still fall short.

    The law says do not commit adultry, I can never sleep with another woman, thus by the letter. I have obeyed that law. Yet Jesus said if I look at another woman in lust, I have commited adultry. So in obeying the letter. I have broken the spirit.

    The. Law is not given to show you how to be righteous, that was never its purpose, its purpose was to lead us to christ.

    You want to know how to be morally upright? It is not by the law of moses, it is by the law of Love (love God and your neighbor, which includes your enemy) and follow or seek after the things of the spirit.

    Amen....given to prove our guilt....and that which proves guilt will never save or make clean.....

  12. #39272
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizikyah View Post
    praiseYah you made it safe!

    SO I have to ask, is everyone that believes following the Commandments a "worker"?
    If one embellishes faith with it to gain, keep or facillitate salvation........

  13. #39273
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    If one embellishes faith with it to gain, keep or facillitate salvation........
    OK, so 2 questions arise if you don't mind.

    1. What if someone seeks to keep the Instructions/Commandments (whatever onw wants to call them) because it is the right thing to do and the right way to live before Yah?

    2. Can the saved believer live a life of sin (transgression of the Law 1 John 3:4) and still enter the kingdom?
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    I might humbly suggest we all have works. To say otherwise seems foolish. Passover (Grace) has spiritually happened before the foundation of the world.

    Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    This "Grace" has come to all men no matter who they are or what they have done. Mankind's action had nothing to do with God's Grace.

    This was part of God's plan from the very beginning.

    Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
    4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

    Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    There was an Old Covenant that fore shadowed this truth called the "Levitical Priesthood". It was comprised of several ceremonies and sacrificial "deeds or works" performed by the Levite Priest's for the remission and justification of sins. Jesus is now our High Priest and has "fulfilled" these "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

    Paul is speaking to this in:

    Romans 3.1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
    2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. (Which also included the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for remission of sins.)

    But now we have Christ's Blood once and for all. No more need of the "Old Covenant" for remission of sins, we now have faith(obedience).

    Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law (Levitical Priesthood ceremonies and sacrificial observances) there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    The law shows us the definition of sin, it can't forgive us of our sin.

    Passover (Grace) is not the end of God's Salvation for mankind, it is the beginning.

    This is why Jesus said to "Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness". And what do we do when we find HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS? Well I would say ignoring it is not the right answer. Paul explained what happened to the Mainstream, God of Abraham preaching" Church of his time.

    Rom. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    Everyone has works.
    The question is, are they from God or man?
    Well since you are new here I'll inform you of the original reason Dcontroversal,made this thread,it was to discuss of that,we are saved "not by works" but by grace through Jesus,Yes of course we "have works" but they don't bring us to salvation,only accepting Jesus as saviour and asking God to save one's soul can one receive the gift of salvation.
    We are all family in God's eyes,so please at least try to get along,sincerely, a child of God.

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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizikyah View Post
    OK, so 2 questions arise if you don't mind.

    1. What if someone seeks to keep the Instructions/Commandments (whatever onw wants to call them) because it is the right thing to do and the right way to live before Yah?

    2. Can the saved believer live a life of sin (transgression of the Law 1 John 3:4) and still enter the kingdom?
    The scriptures are clear...the spirit born of incorruptable seed does not sin and is currently housed in a fallen dead body of sin that is not subject unto the law of God and neither indeed can be....no man, saved or lost can fully keep the law of God and not fail at some point!

  16. #39276
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by joefizz View Post
    Well since you are new here I'll inform you of the original reason Dcontroversal,made this thread,it was to discuss of that,we are saved "not by works" but by grace through Jesus,Yes of course we "have works" but they don't bring us to salvation,only accepting Jesus as saviour and asking God to save one's soul can one receive the gift of salvation.
    I agree that Grace came to all men through no action of their own as Paul was preaching. I was hoping to shed light on what the "works" were that he was speaking to in Romans 3. I find a great truth being ignored regarding Paul's statements that are used so many times in defense of church tradition. Paul was speaking to the specific "Works of the Law" for remission of sins as is contained in the Levitical Priesthood.

    I understand this is seldom discussed but seems very relevant to this thread. What are the "Works" Paul is speaking about. "Thou shall Love the Lord with all your might", "Thou shall love your neighbor as thyself"?

    I don't believe Paul was speaking to these "Works" at all. He was preaching to the Gentiles about the "Oracles" of God being a great benefit in every way. But they, and we, have all transgressed God's Laws.

    So now what?

    Well prior to Christ it would have been necessary to go find a Levite Priest and have him perform "deeds or Works of the Law" for the remission of sins. This included ceremonies and sacrificial "deeds" that were prescribed by God "until the seed should come" as Paul explains in Gal. 3.

    But now Jesus has shed His blood in fulfillment of this "Levitical Priesthood" and has become our High Priest.

    28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

    No more "Works of the LP Law" for justification of sins. Just faith as shown by Abraham.

    This would greatly affect Mainstream Christian tradition if this is true. And would explain so many of the seemingly contradictory statements Paul made.

    1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision(Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    If obedience isn't necessary for salvation, then why did God, Jesus, and Peter and Paul all teach to be obedient to God as Jesus was?

    It wouldn't be so important if Jesus and his Apostles hadn't warned so many times about deceivers "Who come in His Name".

    Anyway, thanks for the reply. Food for thought. Great thread.
    Last edited by Studyman; 1 Week Ago at 04:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    The scriptures are clear...the spirit born of incorruptable seed does not sin and is currently housed in a fallen dead body of sin that is not subject unto the law of God and neither indeed can be....no man, saved or lost can fully keep the law of God and not fail at some point!
    Yes none are perfect yet Scripture says the carnal minded man is not subject to the Law of YHWH, the spiritually minded man can be and is;

    Romans 7 -
    16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the Law is righteous.
    17 As it was, it was no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me.
    22 For I delight in the Law of YHWH according to the inward man;
    23 But I saw another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Law in my mind, and bringing me into captivity of the law of sin, which is in my members.
    25 Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.

    Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it his not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."

    Also whats all this about Him giving us a heart to love and follow His Laws;

    Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

    Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    The scriptures are clear...the spirit born of incorruptable seed does not sin and is currently housed in a fallen dead body of sin that is not subject unto the law of God and neither indeed can be....no man, saved or lost can fully keep the law of God and not fail at some point!
    Luke 1:6
    Now let all the bible experts say it aint saying what it says. "no one can keep the law" -> bible says they kept the law blamelessly. Which one is right?
    PHart likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Issachar92 View Post
    Luke 1:6
    Now let all the bible experts say it aint saying what it says. "no one can keep the law" -> bible says they kept the law blamelessly. Which one is right?
    Luke 1:5-6, "1:5, "There was in the days of Herodes, the sovereign of Yehuḏah, a certain priest named Zeḵaryah, of the division of Aḇiyah. And his wife was of the daughters of Aharon, and her name was Elisheḇa."1:6, "And they were both righteous before Elohim, blamelessly walking in all the commands and righteousnesses of יהוה."
    oldethennew likes this.
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


  20. #39280
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    That is where we differ.. I believe we Keep it because that is what Christ Teaches and instructs us to do.. and states those that Love Him Keep His Commands.. they obey Him. That is Faith that worketh by Love because we are Loved and forgiven.. I don't feel condemned now GOD Imputed Righteousness through Faith in Christ unto me.. I feel Blessed and new inwardly and free to Love and obey the Messiah's Testament forever grateful that the Lord saved me.

    The New incorruptible seed is Christ within... all a gift of GOD that I treasure, because I know I did nothing to deserve.. I Repented and believed and continue to believe by the Power and Love of GOD.
    If we have to keep the Law, then the Christ keeping it for us was useless.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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