Page 1967 of 2007 FirstFirst ... 9671467186719171957196519661967196819691977 ... LastLast
Results 39,321 to 39,340 of 40137
Like Tree59638Likes

Bible Discussion Forum

Ask (or answer) Bible questions here. Join or start a Bible discussion now!

Thread: Not By Works

  1. #39321
    He_reigns
    Guest

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I see more people leave the church for legalism, than I do because of Grace,

    I have yet to see a person who believes in grace leave the church because they were confronted for a sin they are doing. They leave because they know they are sinning, and can not live up to the standard the church is trying to force them to live under.

    Thats why legalism is so dangerous, People are afraid to come confess to get healed. Afraid they will be judged. So they leave instead.
    I said this described someone that gives lip service to being a Christian. You are describing someone else.

  2. #39322
    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14th, 2011
    Age
    52
    Posts
    45,892
    Rep Power
    260

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by He_reigns View Post
    When did continued belief in what Jesus Christ did for us become legalism?
    anything you have to do to maintain salvation or keep from liosing it is legalism.

    Your trying to save yourself. And not depending opn God to save you.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

  3. #39323
    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14th, 2011
    Age
    52
    Posts
    45,892
    Rep Power
    260

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by He_reigns View Post
    My security of eternal life is in my continued belief in what Jesus and him alone did for me, what is yours?
    My security is in christ,
    '
    1. What he did
    2. What he promised
    3. What I have

    If that can be lost. Then I have no secuiry, if I have to rely on myself to continue to do something, I have no security. I am not trustworthy, Only God is.

    Your security is in yourself. Not God. If your security was in God you would know he said whoever believes in him will never perish, never hunger never thirst, Never die, Live forever, and be risen on the last day.

    He said he has Perfected me forever. As he continues the work of sanctifying me.,

    If those things can be lost for any reason. God is a liar.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

  4. #39324
    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 14th, 2011
    Age
    52
    Posts
    45,892
    Rep Power
    260

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by He_reigns View Post
    I said this described someone that gives lip service to being a Christian. You are describing someone else.
    I am describing what I have seen legalism do.

    I know people who give lip service stay for along time. I can not know who is saved and who is not. I am not God, he knows a persons heart. Not me, I can at best guess/. Thats it./
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

  5. #39325
    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
    Join Date
    August 25th, 2013
    Age
    35
    Posts
    8,853
    Blog Entries
    13
    Rep Power
    38

    Default Re: Not By Works

    John/Yahanan 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
    loveme1 and Redeemed2015 like this.
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


  6. #39326
    Senior Member PHart's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 18th, 2017
    Age
    31
    Posts
    1,142
    Rep Power
    25

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    anything you have to do to maintain salvation or keep from liosing it is legalism.

    Your trying to save yourself. And not depending opn God to save you.
    Anything?

    That is your erroneous and distorted understanding of Paul's 'works vs. faith' doctrine. Justification is not by 'nothing at all'. It is through believing, which he clearly contrasts with works. Believing is exactly what you 'do' to secure and keep salvation. You do not do nothing to be saved.
    He_reigns likes this.

  7. #39327
    Senior Member joefizz's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 23rd, 2017
    Age
    25
    Posts
    5,516
    Rep Power
    76

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    I agree that Grace came to all men through no action of their own as Paul was preaching. I was hoping to shed light on what the "works" were that he was speaking to in Romans 3. I find a great truth being ignored regarding Paul's statements that are used so many times in defense of church tradition. Paul was speaking to the specific "Works of the Law" for remission of sins as is contained in the Levitical Priesthood.

    I understand this is seldom discussed but seems very relevant to this thread. What are the "Works" Paul is speaking about. "Thou shall Love the Lord with all your might", "Thou shall love your neighbor as thyself"?

    I don't believe Paul was speaking to these "Works" at all. He was preaching to the Gentiles about the "Oracles" of God being a great benefit in every way. But they, and we, have all transgressed God's Laws.

    So now what?

    Well prior to Christ it would have been necessary to go find a Levite Priest and have him perform "deeds or Works of the Law" for the remission of sins. This included ceremonies and sacrificial "deeds" that were prescribed by God "until the seed should come" as Paul explains in Gal. 3.

    But now Jesus has shed His blood in fulfillment of this "Levitical Priesthood" and has become our High Priest.

    28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

    No more "Works of the LP Law" for justification of sins. Just faith as shown by Abraham.

    This would greatly affect Mainstream Christian tradition if this is true. And would explain so many of the seemingly contradictory statements Paul made.

    1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision(Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    If obedience isn't necessary for salvation, then why did God, Jesus, and Peter and Paul all teach to be obedient to God as Jesus was?

    It wouldn't be so important if Jesus and his Apostles hadn't warned so many times about deceivers "Who come in His Name".

    Anyway, thanks for the reply. Food for thought. Great thread.
    Glad to see you are so well read in the bible,and you make a good point,yes indeed obedience is part of our walk with Jesus for he is our master and saviour and we his servants,I'm not seeing why though that you get the impression that obedience is not what is apart of serving Jesus concerning other posters,has someone told you here that disobedience is not apart of doing right by Jesus,not hoping for names just wondering what it is you feel is lacking,please explainI will pay attention no matter what is said,I have the patience and the time.
    We are all family in God's eyes,so please at least try to get along,sincerely, a child of God.

  8. #39328
    Senior Member PHart's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 18th, 2017
    Age
    31
    Posts
    1,142
    Rep Power
    25

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    Your trying to save yourself. And not depending opn God to save you.
    It's interesting how your 'depending on God to save you' is not works, but ours is. How is 'believing' not depending on God to save you, lol? What do you think believing is?

  9. #39329
    Senior Member PHart's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 18th, 2017
    Age
    31
    Posts
    1,142
    Rep Power
    25

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    So we should judge you as not yet a true believer?
    Brokenness over sin is the sign of the true believer. Any doctrine of rationalizing and excusing sin in the name of grace hardly represents a humble, broken attitude about sin. I certainly do not subscribe to the fake humility of those doctrines. It's impossible to judge me for an attitude about sin I do not have.
    VCO and He_reigns like this.

  10. #39330


    VCO
    VCO is offline
    Senior Member VCO's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 14th, 2013
    Age
    68
    Posts
    5,464
    Rep Power
    42

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
    What's funny about all this is the church has it's own 'rule' for keeping a day of rest and congregating. Yet they attack anyone who decides to have a rule for keeping a day of rest and congregating according to the old covenant.

    I cringe every time I hear someone say 'Sabbath' when referring to Sunday, lol. And then I cringe some more when they quote Hebrews 10:25* knowing they are sure it is wrong to keep a Mosaic Sabbath of rest and congregating while they keep their own. Let's face it folks.......we're idiots. Spiritual idiots, lol.


    *25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some...
    Sabbath has always ben Saturday and always will be. Christians Worshiping on Sunday ARE NOT TRYING TO KEEP THE SABBATH BY CHANGING THE DAY. WE ARE WORSHIPING CHRIST ON A SUNDAY BECAUSE HE IS OUR RISEN LORD AND HE ROSE ON A SUNDAY. TRUE WORSHIP IS WHAT IS GOING ON IN ONE'S HEART, NOT WHERE AND WHEN YOU SITTING IN A PARTICULAR BUILDING, THEREFORE I TRULY WORSHIP HIM SEVEN DAYS A WEEK.

    Romans 14:5-6 (ESV)
    5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
    6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

    My personal experience has been that the Sabbath Keepers get very exercised about our worshiping on Sunday, and falsely accuse us of Changing the Day of the Sabbath, almost ever time. We don't even think of Sunday as a form of keeping the Sabbath. That false idea is purely in the Suspicious Minds of Sabbath Keepers, in my opinion. It does not bother me if they want worship on Saturday, but when they say, and most do, insisting that I and all other Sunday Worshipers are not Right with God because we do not keep the Sabbath, I will refute that idea as False Teaching.
    mailmandan likes this.

    t t t
    Titus 2:13
    VCO

  11. #39331


    VCO
    VCO is offline
    Senior Member VCO's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 14th, 2013
    Age
    68
    Posts
    5,464
    Rep Power
    42

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
    Brokenness over sin is the sign of the true believer. Any doctrine of rationalizing and excusing sin in the name of grace hardly represents a humble, broken attitude about sin. I certainly do not subscribe to the fake humility of those doctrines. It's impossible to judge me for an attitude about sin I do not have.
    You sure can surprise me with a statement that I totally agree with once in awhile, but you sure have made numerous statements that sound like hard core works righteousnes false doctrines too.
    SovereignGrace likes this.

    t t t
    Titus 2:13
    VCO

  12. #39332
    Senior Member PHart's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 18th, 2017
    Age
    31
    Posts
    1,142
    Rep Power
    25

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    Christians Worshiping on Sunday ARE NOT TRYING TO KEEP THE SABBATH BY CHANGING THE DAY.
    You personally may not know that the intent was to literally change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, but that is exactly what the church decided to do. Google it.

    I can not count the number of times I have heard Christians refer to Sunday as the Sabbath. And I cringe every time I hear it.....I mean now that I know that the church's intent was to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.
    He_reigns likes this.

  13. #39333
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 12th, 2013
    Age
    50
    Posts
    24,595
    Blog Entries
    5
    Rep Power
    227

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
    This is the reemergence of Gnosticism in the church. It's gaining popularity under another name.

    It's really just a rationalization for continuing in the bondage of sin. But there is no reason to rationalize sin this way in the genuine believer since the blood of Christ cleanses us of wrong doing when we seek that cleansing. My observation has been that this doctrine is attractive to people not looking for Christ's cleansing but who want an excuse to continue in their old ways and still be saved. And it's not necessarily that they love sin and want to live in it for that reason. Some are just the helpless victims of a church that does not believe that believers can be victorious over sin and has taught them to accept that (supposed) fact.



    Here's what Paul says about the spirit of a man not sinning as dcon's doctrine claims:

    "1Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1 NASB)

    So we can see that what the scriptures are clear about is that the spirit of a man can be defiled and must be cleansed. Sin does not reside solely in the flesh as Gnosticism teaches.
    The fact that you compare the sealing of the Spirit with a bowl of lasagna and then state that you must keep yourself saved while disregarding the words and promises of Jesus = no value with any view you post.....and your last line reeks of ignorance to the max......We are born of incorruptible seed....and that which is born of God does not sin..

    Your view blasphemes the Holy Spirit, states that the seed can be corrupted and denies the inspired words of JOHN....and I see your working for buddies like your falsehoods and anti-God cake taking heresies
    SovereignGrace and TruthTalk like this.

  14. #39334


    VCO
    VCO is offline
    Senior Member VCO's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 14th, 2013
    Age
    68
    Posts
    5,464
    Rep Power
    42

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    We are given so much insight and instruction.. it is to provoke us to Love and do good to not sin... why are you condemning everyone.. we need to Love and encourage for there is Victory and Hope through our Saviour..

    2 Peter 1

    3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Because the SCRIPTURES SAY WE ARE ALL SINNERS DESPERATELY IN NEED OF A SAVIOR, and WE CANNOT SAVE OURSELVES. OUR OWN SINS, PERSONALLY PUT HIM ON THE CROSS.

    Romans 3:9-12 (HCSB)
    9 What then? Are we any better? Not at all! For we have previously charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin,
    10 as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one.
    11 There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
    12 All have turned away; all alike have become useless. There is no one who does what is good, not even one.


    Romans 12:3 (ESV)
    3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.




    Last edited by VCO; 4 Days Ago at 11:04 PM.
    mailmandan likes this.

    t t t
    Titus 2:13
    VCO

  15. #39335


    VCO
    VCO is offline
    Senior Member VCO's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 14th, 2013
    Age
    68
    Posts
    5,464
    Rep Power
    42

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    Because the SCRIPTURES SAY WE ARE ALL SINNERS DESPERATELY IN NEED OF A SAVIOR, and WE CANNOT SAVE OURSELVES. OUR OWN SINS, PERSONALLY PUT HIM ON THE CROSS.

    Romans 3:9-12 (HCSB)
    9 What then? Are we any better? Not at all! For we have previously charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin,
    10 as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one.
    11 There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
    12 All have turned away; all alike have become useless. There is no one who does what is good, not even one.


    Romans 12:3 (ESV)
    3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.


    One more point. This world is Populated ONLY with two types of Sinners.

    Saved Sinners and Unsaved Sinners.
    dcontroversal likes this.

    t t t
    Titus 2:13
    VCO

  16. #39336
    Senior Member PHart's Avatar
    Join Date
    March 18th, 2017
    Age
    31
    Posts
    1,142
    Rep Power
    25

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    You sure can surprise me with a statement that I totally agree with once in awhile, but you sure have made numerous statements that sound like hard core works righteousnes false doctrines too.
    And I understand perfectly that they sound like works righteousness arguments to you. But I assure you, they are not. The forgiveness of sin is the ONLY way to be made righteous before God. You can't work your way out of your sin debt.

    The only way to erase the record of unrighteousness that we have in heaven is to believe that God will forgive it. You can't stop believing in the forgiveness of God and still be righteous before God. If you stop believing in the blood that makes you righteous in God's sight you won't have any sacrifice remaining to cover the sins you commit. That's hardly a works gospel.

    Paul said nothing about believing being the vain attempt to earn you a declaration of right standing with God. Quite the opposite. He said believing is the very thing that you 'do' that makes you righteous before God. But the church has now decided that since it's something you 'do' it is you trying to save yourself. That's absurd.

    This has nothing to do with works other than a return to unbelief will be signified by a willful return to a lifestyle of sin, just as a continued belief in Christ will be signified by an ever-increasing lifestyle of righteousness.
    Last edited by PHart; 4 Days Ago at 11:15 PM.

  17. #39337
    Senior Member joefizz's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 23rd, 2017
    Age
    25
    Posts
    5,516
    Rep Power
    76

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
    Anything?

    That is your erroneous and distorted understanding of Paul's 'works vs. faith' doctrine. Justification is not by 'nothing at all'. It is through believing, which he clearly contrasts with works. Believing is exactly what you 'do' to secure and keep salvation. You do not do nothing to be saved.
    "Believing is exactly what you do to secure and keep salvation".
    "You do not do nothing to be saved"...........
    So Jesus did nothing for us nor for you,through his deeds in life,being crucified,obtaining the keys of hell,resurrecting,and then ascending,so you don't serve Jesus,you still seek to serve God under only his law,that Jesus fulfilled and protected us from through his being crucified,so you are in a very problamatic situation for you seem to acknowledge Jesus but you don't accept his "good works"(Yes I said good works for him because as paul said "there is none that doeth good no not one" where as Jesus was God in the flesh so his works were good)
    God did not come in flesh for people to claim that he did nothing for us as Jesus,such rebellion is to love the world and not God,for though I understand ye mean also that noone is to be idle when saved through Jesus alone,but how can ye be saved when you choose to "be alone",for how can one accept Jesus yet not be saved?
    how can one work and declare unto God that they have done well when they have not accepted his son?
    How can one make claims that one's works are good if only God has not sin?
    How can one keep God's commandments when he hath knowledge beyond our comprehension,is it easy to do what orders God gives when he hath wise reasons for such commands?
    How can one save thine self from hell and the lake of fire,seeing as that ye are not God?
    Did it not repent God for making man for his generations were rebellious?
    Whom is like unto God that they can be makers of their own salvation?
    how long must one toil to have salvation seeing as that it is not of man but of God?
    How can one be born again in Christ Jesus and no longer believe his promise of salvation?
    What is belief in Jesus the only begotten son of God that one muses that it can be cast away from himself,is not he a new creature once he accepts him being baptized of the holy spirit?
    Is it a mere manmade gift the holy spirit that it can be thrust from oneself?
    Who hath not done wrong against the lord thine God that he has perfection let him stand before God that he may know that one is his equal though he be almighty and unequivocally knowledgeable.
    Trust in Jesus the only begotten son of God for remember God's way is perfect and that way is Jesus.
    dcontroversal likes this.
    We are all family in God's eyes,so please at least try to get along,sincerely, a child of God.

  18. #39338
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 28th, 2016
    Age
    46
    Posts
    2,393
    Rep Power
    52

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    So we should judge you as not yet a true believer?

    Be careful what you say. I know many humble non believers, and many arrogant believers.
    Phart still stinking...
    dcontroversal and TruthTalk like this.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

  19. #39339


    VCO
    VCO is offline
    Senior Member VCO's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 14th, 2013
    Age
    68
    Posts
    5,464
    Rep Power
    42

    Default Re: Not By Works

    I am Class of 1967, and now I am on Page 1967

    t t t
    Titus 2:13
    VCO

  20. #39340


    VCO
    VCO is offline
    Senior Member VCO's Avatar
    Join Date
    October 14th, 2013
    Age
    68
    Posts
    5,464
    Rep Power
    42

    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
    And I understand perfectly that they sound like works righteousness arguments to you. But I assure you, they are not. The forgiveness of sin is the ONLY way to be made righteous before God. You can't work your way out of your sin debt.

    The only way to erase the record of unrighteousness that we have in heaven is to believe that God will forgive it. You can't stop believing in the forgiveness of God and still be righteous before God. If you stop believing in the blood that makes you righteous in God's sight you won't have any sacrifice remaining to cover the sins you commit. That's hardly a works gospel.

    Paul said nothing about believing being the vain attempt to earn you a declaration of right standing with God. Quite the opposite. He said believing is the very thing that you 'do' that makes you righteous before God. But the church has now decided that since it's something you 'do' it is you trying to save yourself. That's absurd.

    This has nothing to do with works other than a return to unbelief will be signified by a willful return to a lifestyle of sin, just as a continued belief in Christ will be signified by an ever-increasing lifestyle of righteousness.

    Then you sure have a strange way of Phrasing things.
    dcontroversal likes this.

    t t t
    Titus 2:13
    VCO

Similar Threads

  1. Salvation is Definitely By Works -- God's Works, not Man's
    By Atwood in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: January 8th, 2015, 07:37 PM
  2. The Christian Has Good Works; Jonathan Edwards on Works
    By Atwood in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: October 11th, 2014, 03:51 AM
  3. Works Not Possible Without Salvation (Good Works, that is)
    By Atwood in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: May 10th, 2014, 12:48 AM
  4. Replies: 598
    Last Post: August 10th, 2013, 06:54 PM
  5. works of the flesh contrasted with works of the Spirit
    By 1still_waters in forum Christian Singles Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: February 22nd, 2011, 08:02 PM