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Thread: Not By Works

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PHart View Post
    You personally may not know that the intent was to literally change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, but that is exactly what the church decided to do. Google it.

    I can not count the number of times I have heard Christians refer to Sunday as the Sabbath. And I cringe every time I hear it.....I mean now that I know that the church's intent was to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

    NOT in ANY OF the Conservative Evangelical Churches, nor the Baptist Churches as far as I know. In fact Baptist have been known to call us Incognito Baptists, LOL.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    Because the SCRIPTURES SAY WE ARE ALL SINNERS DESPERATELY IN NEED OF A SAVIOR, and WE CANNOT SAVE OURSELVES. OUR OWN SINS, PERSONALLY PUT HIM ON THE CROSS.

    Romans 3:9-12 (HCSB)
    9 What then? Are we any better? Not at all! For we have previously charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin,
    10 as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one.
    11 There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
    12 All have turned away; all alike have become useless. There is no one who does what is good, not even one.


    Romans 12:3 (ESV)
    3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.





    Yes everyone one needs to be saved.. We that Believe are changed inwardly by the power of GOD.. cleansed of all sin by His Blood.. those that Believe are to walk as He walked in His Light.. and the knowledge that every sin we ever do put Him on the cross for our Salvation is what breaks us and GOD rebuilds us through our Faith in His Son's Testament. Reciprocated Love...

    GOD is able to Keep us if we Trust and Love Him...

    There are two type of people unbelievers and believers... indeed but the believers are no longer on the path to destruction but follow Christ's example keeping their heart Faithful to their First Love.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Jeremiah 17:10, “I, יהוה, search the heart, I try the kidneys, and give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”


    2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”
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    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    NOT in ANY OF the Conservative Evangelical Churches, nor the Baptist Churches as far as I know. In fact Baptist have been known to call us Incognito Baptists, LOL.
    I attend a non-denominational church that worships on Sunday because that's when Christ rose from the dead and they also understand that the weekly Sabbath day was always Saturday and keeping the Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations (Exodus 16:23; 31:12-18; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21; 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13), was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. (Colossians 2:16,17)
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    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I attend a non-denominational church that worships on Sunday because that's when Christ rose from the dead and they also understand that the weekly Sabbath day was always Saturday and keeping the Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations (Exodus 16:23; 31:12-18; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21; 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13), was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. (Colossians 2:16,17)

    You are entitled to believe as you wish but Loving GOD is part of the New Covenant.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    You are entitled to believe as you wish but Loving GOD is part of the New Covenant.
    you are also entitled to believe what you wish, but we are not saved by works or law or Sabbath keeping, but by grace only.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    You are entitled to believe as you wish but Loving GOD is part of the New Covenant.
    I never said it wasn't.

    1 John 4:7 - Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

    1 John 5:2 - This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.

    1 John 5:3 - In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I never said it wasn't.

    1 John 4:7 - Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

    1 John 5:2 - This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.

    1 John 5:3 - In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.

    Indeed.. knowing that He loved us First. For love is not burdensome.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    You are entitled to believe as you wish but Loving GOD is part of the New Covenant.
    Yes, when it comes to the Sabbath some people only see the OT rules and regulations using them for an excuse to negate them. They do not see YASHUA CONTINUING the same Commandments in LOVE and a changed performance....so they throw them all out together...how blind and ignorant they are !
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    Indeed.. knowing that He loved us First. For love is not burdensome.
    Yes, we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5).
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by beta View Post
    Yes, when it comes to the Sabbath some people only see the OT rules and regulations using them for an excuse to negate them. They do not see YASHUA CONTINUING the same Commandments in LOVE and a changed performance....so they throw them all out together...how blind and ignorant they are !
    Straw man argument. You are obviously obsessed with the Sabbath and are determined to turn keeping the Sabbath into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the New Covenant. I hear your same arguments from SDA's all the time.

    Which same Commandments in LOVE still apply to the Church?

    1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
    2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
    3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
    4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
    5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
    6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
    7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
    9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
    10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by beta View Post
    Yes, when it comes to the Sabbath some people only see the OT rules and regulations using them for an excuse to negate them. They do not see YASHUA CONTINUING the same Commandments in LOVE and a changed performance....so they throw them all out together...how blind and ignorant they are !
    He taught us all Truth of Sabbath and all the Commandments which is Love.. each day through Christ I can love and forgive.. for when we consider how GOD saves us.. we can only pass on that Love and forgiveness to others by the Power of GOD. I love how Peter said Lord you know I love you.. we know He searches our hearts... and GOD keeps us as we live by Faith.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Straw man argument. You are obviously obsessed with the Sabbath and are determined to turn keeping the Sabbath into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the New Covenant. I hear your same arguments from SDA's all the time.

    Which same Commandments in LOVE still apply to the Church?

    1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
    2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
    3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
    4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
    5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
    6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
    7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
    9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
    10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

    Mailman.. If GOD tells us those that Love Him Keep His Commandments and the Messiah testified that we are to Keep even the least and the Greatest is to Love GOD then it is our decision to believe or not.. but to enforce it would go against Faith that worketh by Love... so I say no one should teach against the Sabbath based on scripture.. it is a choice to Keep or not.. but I would say do not teach against it.. for the command is to Keep and teach...
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    Quote Originally Posted by loveme1 View Post
    Mailman.. If GOD tells us those that Love Him Keep His Commandments and the Messiah testified that we are to Keep even the least and the Greatest is to Love GOD then it is our decision to believe or not.. but to enforce it would go against Faith that worketh by Love... so I say no one should teach against the Sabbath based on scripture.. it is a choice to Keep or not.. but I would say do not teach against it.. for the command is to Keep and teach...
    What I'm against is for people in such groups as the SDA church who turn keeping the Sabbath day into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the New Covenant. There is an elderly man on my mail route who has tried to convince me that I MUST (or else) keep the weekly Sabbath on Saturday and often brags that he does. He has encouraged me to tell my employer that I cannot work on Saturday in order to keep the Sabbath day holy and even implied that those who don't will not make it to heaven.

    I have never once heard this man share the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) but he sure likes to talk about keeping the Saturday Sabbath day and those who worship God on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast. He is constantly slamming the Roman Catholic church for changing the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday, but I understand the Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations was Saturday and was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

    You can read some of the bizarre claims of the SDA church here - Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Straw man argument. You are obviously obsessed with the Sabbath and are determined to turn keeping the Sabbath into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the New Covenant. I hear your same arguments from SDA's all the time.

    Which same Commandments in LOVE still apply to the Church?

    1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
    2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
    3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
    4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
    5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
    6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
    7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
    9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
    10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3
    First of all I am not SDA nor ever have been. We have the Word of GOD teaching the Sabbath, no need to listen to men....who have made a real mess of scripture.
    TODAy none of the Commandments are binding on the church....we are no longer under the 'letter of the law as in the OT....NOW we worship in LOVE and SPIRIT voluntarily ....as you also agree !!!
    so why the rejection of the 4th Commandment and changing it to another day ??? why not deal with it as Yashua/Jesus teaches us in the NT ? Did HE continue to keep the Sabbath ? you bet !
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Straw man argument. You are obviously obsessed with the Sabbath and are determined to turn keeping the Sabbath into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the New Covenant. I hear your same arguments from SDA's all the time.

    Which same Commandments in LOVE still apply to the Church?

    1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
    2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
    3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
    4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
    5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
    6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
    7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
    9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
    10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3
    Hi MMD,

    Great here is a good start. Let's talk scripture. Let's start by examining your post above and share scriptures together in the Spirit of love.

    I like what you have written above but I do have a problem with numbers.............

    Point 3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12 and
    Point 4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17

    Let's start with point 3..............

    The third commandments is "Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain" (Exodus 20:7)....................
    You quote it's New Testament counterpart as

    James 5:12
    But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

    This verse say nothing about taking the Lords name in vain it is about taking an oath and swearing by the things in heaven or earth but let your yes be yes and your no be no so that does not support what your saying above that all the commandments are listed in God's Word except the 4th commandment....

    Let's now look at point 4....................
    Seems you missed out on quoting Hebrews 4 which talk about God's Sabbath not to mention all the verses about what Jesus and the Apostle taught about the Sabbath but lets just focus on the scripture you quoted which is Colossians 2:16-17.

    Please let's talk Scripture.............

    Colossians 2:14-17,
    14, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15, And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath(s): 17, which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Colossians 2:14
    Let’s start with the context of Colossians 2:16-17. The context is verse 14 which is the blotting out (G1813; ἐξαλείφω; exaleiphō; ex-al-i'-fo; means to obliterate; erase; wipe away) the handwriting of ordinances which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way nailing it to the cross.

    The next question we need to consider is what is the handwriting of ordinances that are to be erased and nailed to the cross?

    The Greek words used here is handwriting G5498 χειρόγραφον; cheirographon; which means; hand written legal document which is combined with ordinance G1378 δόγμα dogma dog'-mah From the base of G1380; which means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law: - decree;

    The Greek meaning of handwriting of ordinances in V14 is a hand written legal document or book of civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws. These are the laws referred to in verse 14 that have been erased and are nailed to the cross.

    What is the legal written document or book (handwriting of ordinances) that includes the civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws referring to?

    There was two sets of laws that were given to God’s people in the Old Testament scriptures.

    (1) God’s Law (10 commandments) pointed out what sin was and the penalty of sin which is death. It was never a cure for sin in the Old Testament as well as in the New. It only gives a knowledge of what sin is and righteousness (right doing) (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Ps 119:172).

    (2) The laws of Moses was the second set of laws and included all the civil, ceremonial, and ecclesiastical laws. These laws could not tell you what sin was this was the job of God’s Law, however the laws of Moses were the prescriptive cure for sin in the Old Covenant. These laws included all the Levitical and ceremonial laws, sacrificial burnt offerings for sin, annual festivals and earthly sanctuary services for sin. These laws were the cure for sin so the sinner could be made right with God. These where all prophetic in nature, teaching the plan of salvation which pointing to Jesus as the true lamb of God and our great high priest and His Work on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary. (Leviticus 1; 3-12; 14-17; 22-23; Number 6-8; 15; 28-29; Deut 12; 33; Ex 25:8; John 1:29; 36; Rev 5:6; 1Cor 5:6-7; Heb 8:2-13; 9:1-28)

    From the above it can be seen that God’s Law was written on stone and the laws of Moses in a book. God’s Law is forever and only points out what sin is but was never a cure for sin (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23).

    The laws of Moses included all the ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws that were the cure for sin with all the sin offerings and earthly Sanctuary services, annual festivals and sin offerings which were prophetic in nature and temporary pointing to the life, death, resurrection of Jesus and his role as the true lamb of God and your great high priest to atone for our sins (John 1:29; 36; Rev 5:6; 1Cor 5:6-7; Heb 8:2-13; 9:1-28). The handwriting of ordinances (ceremonial laws and ordinances written in a book) is referring to the ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws of Moses which included the Jewish annual festivals and sin offerings that pointed to Jesus.

    Why were the ceremonial laws of Moses (handwriting of ordinances) nailed to the cross?

    Jesus was our true sacrifice for our sins and the saviour of the world that the ceremonial laws of Moses all pointed to. When Jesus came and died the old Covenant laws of Moses that pointed to Jesus and the plan of salvation was fulfilled (John 1:29; 36; Rev 5:6; 1Cor 5:6-7; Heb 8:2-13; 9:1-28). Jesus is our true Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and our sacrifice for our sins. It is our sins as well as the ceremonial laws of Moses that were nailed to the cross at the death of Jesus (Col 2:14; John 3:16).

    Colossians 2:14 is the context of Colossians 2:16-17. The context is that all the ceremonial laws of Moses pointing to the plan of salvation and Jesus have been fulfilled and nailed to the cross and along with our sins, if we accept Jesus as our true Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world (John 1:29). We are no longer under the Old Covenant laws of Moses. These do not include God’s Law which is forever (Ecc 3:14).

    Now we have looked at the context of Colossians 2:16-17 by looking at verse 14 above and we know what it actually is that it is the ceremonial laws and sin offerings that are nailed to the cross along with our sins, let’s look at Colossians 2:16-17.

    Colossians 2:16-17
    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath day(s): 17, which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Here is the actual Greek to English translation of Col 2:16-17 verses from the interlinear:

    16 Not therefore anyone you let judge in regards to food or in regards to drink or in regards to a feast (or festival) or a new moon or Sabbath(s). 17 which are a shadow of things coming but body

    In Col 2:16 the word rendered "holy-day" - ἑορτὴ heortē - in the Greek means a "feast" or "festival;"
    Now, notice the key context within Col 2:16-17; No one is to judge you in regards to meat or drink, a feast or festival, or of the New Moon or of sabbath(s).

    The Greek word for sabbath used in Col 2:16 G4521; σάββατο; is sabbaton which means to cease from secular labor, stop work, rest. It does not necessarily need to refer to the 7th Day Sabbath commandment. In Leviticus Chapter 23, there is special days within the Jewish annual festivals which are called a Holy convocation. There are special days that can fall on any day of the week. They are not a regular weekly 7th day Sabbath according to God’s Law (Ex 20:8-11) but are a sabbaton (Greek) in that no secular work was allowed and work was to cease and these Holy convocations were days of rest although not a Sabbath from God’s Law (10 commandments) they were a sabbath (sabbaton) as used in the Greek.

    Scripture point summary:

    1. Blotting out or nailing the handwriting of ordinances to the cross is referring to the ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws of Moses which includes all the sin offerings and laws relating to sin offering that pointed to the plan of salvation and Jesus (v14)
    2. Jesus at the cross triumphing over principalities and powers (v 15)
    3. No one to Judge you in meat and drink, festivals, new moon of the sabbath(s) (v16). Holy-day in the Greek means a festival and sabbath(s) in the Greek in this verse means sabbaton which simply means to cease from secular work and rest. It does not have to mean a 7th Day Sabbath (Ex 20:8-11)
    4. The meat and drink, festivals, new moons or of the sabbath(s) are a shadow of things to come (v17)

    Context within Col 2:16-17:
    (1) meat or drink
    (2) feast or festival
    (3) new moons
    (4) sabbath(s)
    (5) Above were shadows of things to come

    So the overall context of Col 2:16-17 is in not judging in regards to meat and drink, festivals (feast days), new moons and sabbath(s) that are a part of the civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws of Moses (v 14)

    Col 2 is talking about the ceremonial laws from Moses which also included the annual festivals of Lev 23; Deut 10; Numb 27 and 28. Now let’s have a look at the Old Testament scriptures to see what Col 2 is talking about. Remember the overall context is in regards to meat and drink, feast days (festivals), new moons and sabbath(s) that are a part of the civil, ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws of Moses that were completed and nailed to the cross. If we can find references to the above context of Col 2:16 it will help us to understand what Col 2:14-17 is talking about because these are all shadows that pointed to Jesus.

    Old Testament references to Col 2:16-17; with the same scripture context:

    Col 2:16-17,
    Let no man therefore judge you in (1) meat, or in drink, or in respect of an (2) feastival, or of the (3) new moon, or of the (4) sabbath(s): Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Eze 45:17-21,
    It shall be the prince’s duty to furnish the (1) burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the (2) feasts, the (3) new moons, and the (4) Sabbaths, at all the appointed (2) feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. Thus says the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary: And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court. And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erred, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house. In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the Passover, a Feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

    1Ch 23:31
    and whenever (1) burnt offerings were presented to the LORD on the (4) Sabbaths, at the (3) New Moon (2) feasts and at the appointed festivals. They were to serve before the LORD regularly in the proper number and in the way prescribed for them.

    2Ch 2:4,
    Now I am about to build a temple for the Name of the LORD my God and to dedicate it to him for burning fragrant incense before him, for setting out the consecrated bread regularly, and for making (1) burnt offerings every morning and evening and on the (4) Sabbaths, at the (3) New Moons and at the appointed (2) festivals of the LORD our God. This is a lasting ordinance for Israel.

    Hos 2:11,
    I will stop all her celebrations: her (2) yearly festivals, her (3) New Moons, her (4) Sabbaths and all her (2) appointed festivals.

    It is interesting to note in the Old Testament the word Sabbath (shabbath 7676 from shabath 7673 meaning “rest”) is not only used for the weekly Sabbath but is also applied to the first and last days of the annual Jewish Festivals. The Greek Word used in Col 2:16 is Sabbaton simply means to cease from secular work; rest.

    The monthly New Moon Sabbaths in relation to these festivals as well as the Holy convocations (Sabbaton to cease from work and rest) could fall on any day of the week depending on the year the festival was starting. The Holy convocations were to start the beginning of the annual Jewish feasts. They were to be rest (Sabbath) days (not to be confused with God’s commandment) and restricted or no work was to be done. (Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29)

    A High Sabbath day however was when I Holy convocation annual feast day falls on the same day as God’s weekly Sabbath commandment (Ex 20:8-11). This is an extension of the term "high day" found in the King James Version at John 19:31-42. The seven festivals do not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). Three of them occur in spring: the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover), and Shavuot (Pentecost) which occurs in summer. Three occur in fall, in the seventh month, and are also called shabbaton: Rosh Hashanah (Trumpets); Yom Kippur, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths" (Atonement); and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Tabernacles). Sometimes the word shabbaton is extended to mean all seven festivals. The Gospel of John says of the night immediately following Christ's burial that "that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31-42). That night was Nisan 15, just after the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies. The King James Version may thus be the origin of naming the annual rest days "High Sabbaths" in English (source: wiki).

    All of the above have their origin from the ceremonial laws of Moses found in Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29. All these references are in connection to; (1) Food and Drink offerings, (2) Feast days, (3) New Moons and (4) annual feast Sabbath(s)

    So in summary, it should be very clear that Col 2:14-17 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses along with the annual Jewish feast days that all pointed to the coming of Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross the Jewish feasts along with the burnt offerings, food and drink offerings, festivals and New Moon festival Sabbath(s) which all pointed to Jesus where a shadow of things to come. Many of the feast days (holy convocations) in Lev 23 where no work days in the Greek Col 2:16 were Sabbaton cease from secular work and rest.

    Col 2:14-17 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses in the annual ceremonial Feast days of Lev 23; Deut and Numbers that all pointed to Jesus and were nailed to the Cross including the annual new moon feast Sabbaths that could fall on any day of the week.

    Line upon line and Precept upon precept.....

    To be continued......................

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    Senior Member LoveGodForever's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    What is the difference between God's 7th Day weekly Sabbath commandment (Ex 20:8-11) and the annual ceremonial Sabbaths for feast days of Col 2:16?

    As mentioned earlier to help understand the difference between these days you need to understand the purposes of the two laws, 1. God’s Law and 2. The ceremonial laws of Moses. As mentioned shown above

    (1) God’s Law reveals what sin and righteousness (right doing) is and the describes the penalty for sin (Rom 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Rom 6:23). It was never a cure for sin. But it was the work of God which is forever and the foundation of the Old Covenant, the New Covenant and the Judgement to come.

    Scripture proof:
    Ex 32:16; Ex 31:18; 31:18; Ex 20:1-22; Deut 10:5; Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Heb 7:19; Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31; Ps 111:7-8; Rev 12:17; 14:12; 22:14; 1 John 3:5-8; 1 John 2:3-4; Ecc 3:14

    (2) The laws of Moses was the prescriptive cure for sin with all the Levitical and ceremonial laws, burnt offerings for sin, annual feast days foretelling the plan of salvation which were connected to Feast days with New Moon sabbaths, food and drink offerings and other Holy days. These where all types pointing to Jesus and the plan of salvation and provided a cure for sin through animal sacrifice and food and drink offerings and yearly sin atonements for God’s people.

    Scripture proof:
    Lev 1:1-13; Lev 23:1-44; Num 28:1-31; 29:1-40; Deut 24:10-11; Ex 24:3; Deut 31:24-26; Col 2:16-16; Heb 10:1; Eph 2:14-15; Lev 4; 5; 6; Heb 4:14; 9;10; John 1:29; not exhaustive there are many more.

    Every Old Testament scripture reference in connection to Col 2:16 is in relation to (1) burnt offerings; (2) Sabbaths held at the New Moon feasts and at the appointed festivals and (3) food and drink offerings. The context is referring to the annual ceremonial feast days described in Leviticus Chapter 23; Numbers chapters 28 and 29. As mentioned earlier these were all done away at the cross because they were Shadows of an unfinished work that was completed at the death of Jesus (Col 2:14-17).

    Let’s now look at what the 4th commandment from God’s Law in the 10 commandments and look at what it actually says?

    Exo 20:8-11,
    Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.

    Now please notice some key points;

    Where does it say in the 4th commandment of God’s Law that we need to do (1) burnt offerings (2) keep the annual Sabbaths at the New Moons at the appointed festivals and (3) offer food and drink offerings? It does not because it is God’s Law and it only points out sin and righteousness. It is the same Law that we have today and is forever because it was made by God himself and represents the character of God and is the knowledge of good and evil. It shows us what sin is (Rom 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Rom 6:23).

    Now notice the last part of the commandment in Ex 20:11 this is the reason the commandment was given. (v11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day.

    This is a reference back to Gen 2:1-3. What does Genesis 2:1-3 teach us about God’s 4th commandment the 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the 10 commandments?

    GEN 2
    1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    Scripture context points:
    * God finished all the work of creation on the 7th Day of the week (v1)
    * God ended His Work on the 7th Day of the creation week and rested from all His work of creation, it was completed no more work required (v2)
    * God blessed the 7th Day and set it apart as a holy day as a memorial of creation

    Critical questions and answers:

    When was God’s 7th Day Sabbath made, before the fall of mankind or after the fall of mankind?
    It was made BEFORE the fall of mankind at the end of the creation week on the 7th Day and was the result of a FINISHED work!

    Was God’s work of creation a FINISHED WORK or an UNFUNISHED WORK?
    The 7th Day Sabbath was the result of the FINISHED AND COMPLETED WORK of creation!

    When were God’s Laws and the laws of Moses given, before the fall of mankind or after the fall of mankind? Obviously AFTER the fall of mankind (Ex 20:1-17, Lev 23:1-44, etc) they were part of God’s plan of salvation.

    So in summary the 7th Day Sabbath is a memorial of the FINISHED work of creation and if it is a FINISHED work and a memorial of God’s creation that was given BEFORE the FALL of mankind before SIN had entered the world and before the plan of salvation was given to FALLEN man. If it was a part of a FINISHED work then it cannot be a Shadow of salvation because a Shadow was part of an UNFINISHED work given in the laws of Moses and was given AFTER the fall of mankind where the Sabbath was made before the fall.

    Overall summary:
    * Col 2:14-17 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses (v 14)

    * The ceremonial laws of Moses included all the (1) food and drink offering, (2) feast days and festivals, (3) New Moons and (4) annual feast sabbaths (v 16)

    * These were all Shadows pointing to Jesus and were completed at His death (v14; 17)

    * The in text context of Col 2:16 is referring to the Old Testament scriptures word for word in relation to the laws of Moses (Col 2:16-17; Eze 45:17-21; 1Ch 23:31; 2Ch 2:4; Hos 2:11; Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29)

    * God’s Law (10 commandments) was the work of God himself and separate from every other law given to Israel. Its role was to point out sin

    * The laws of Moses were to teach Israel the plan of salvation pointing to Jesus which was completed at the death of Jesus. It could not identify sin but its provided a cure for sin in animal sacrificed and burnt offerings and food and drink offerings which all pointed to Jesus (Col 2:14-17)

    * Col 2:16 is referring to the annual New Moon ceremonial sabbaths connected to feast days and food and drink offerings and not the 4th commandment of God’s Law.

    * God’s 4th commandment is a reference to Gen 2:1-3 which is the 7th day of the creation week which was part of the FINISHED work creation given BEFORE the fall of mankind so cannot be a part of any Shadow plan of Salvation because its origin is in the FINISHED creation week BEFORE the fall.

    Closing remarks:

    Jesus says the Sabbath was made for man. He is the God of creation that made it for mankind. God commands us to keep the 7th Day Sabbath as a Holy day because he rested on this day. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. If we love him we must follow Him (Mark 2:27-28; John 14:15)

    Please by all means, tell me the above is not true if you do not believe it from God's Word. If you cannot why do you not believe God? We must follow the Word of God over the traditions and teachings of man or we are not following Him who loves all....

    Hope this helps the faithful Bereans.

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    Senior Member Prov910's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    What I'm against is for people in such groups as the SDA church who turn keeping the Sabbath day into a legalistic prescription for Christians under the New Covenant. There is an elderly man on my mail route who has tried to convince me that I MUST (or else) keep the weekly Sabbath on Saturday and often brags that he does. He has encouraged me to tell my employer that I cannot work on Saturday in order to keep the Sabbath day holy and even implied that those who don't will not make it to heaven.

    I have never once heard this man share the Gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) but he sure likes to talk about keeping the Saturday Sabbath day and those who worship God on Sunday will receive the mark of the beast. He is constantly slamming the Roman Catholic church for changing the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday, but I understand the Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations was Saturday and was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

    You can read some of the bizarre claims of the SDA church here - Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast
    Ha ha! I listen to an SDA radio station quite often during the day. They are zealous about studying the bible, and I like that. The main issue I have with SDA views is that they seem to grasp onto a belief and then go to great lengths to justify it--and judge others based on it. Then again, I guess almost every particular denomination, and even every individual, does this to some extent. Shoot, even though it's a pet peeve of mine I'm probably guilty of it too. :shrug:
    ================================================== ===========
    10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. Prov. 9:10

  19. #39359
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by beta View Post
    First of all I am not SDA nor ever have been.
    Glad to hear that, but still...

    We have the Word of GOD teaching the Sabbath, no need to listen to men....who have made a real mess of scripture.
    Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel that is not applicable to Christians under the New Covenant. Even when someone today sets out to keep the Sabbath day, they aren’t truly keeping the Sabbath. To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament would involve compliance with certain regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced. If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). These were commanded by God to Israel. If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person say he keeps a certain law when he keeps only part of it?

    If the Sabbath-day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh-day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under the Mosaic regulations.

    TODAy none of the Commandments are binding on the church....we are no longer under the 'letter of the law as in the OT....NOW we worship in LOVE and SPIRIT voluntarily ....as you also agree !!!
    Amen!

    so why the rejection of the 4th Commandment and changing it to another day ??? why not deal with it as Yashua/Jesus teaches us in the NT? Did HE continue to keep the Sabbath? you bet !
    I did not change the Sabbath day to another day. It has always been on Saturday. I have already explained why the Sabbath day with all it's rules and regulations was for Israel and not for Christians under the New Covenant. Jesus was under the law, which explains why He not only kept the Sabbath, but the entire law. Who was Jesus teaching the Sabbath to in the NT "prior to the New Covenant being fully established?" Where under the New Covenant is the Church commanded to keep the Sabbath?
    crossnote likes this.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  20. #39360
    Senior Member beta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Yes, we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5).
    1Joh 2v4 - He that says 'I know him and keeps not his Commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
    Are you going to argue with scripture as you do with me ?

    I hope the Holy Spirit you claim to have in you will lead you into obedience to the one who is author of salvation Heb5v9. God bless you Dan, God wants us all to be ONE with Him.
    LoveGodForever likes this.

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