Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I guess I've come back around to where I always end up, which is to process what's being said as: all you have to do is believe what He said about living forever. The rest of what He said is optional for this life. You only have to believe one thing He said, not all of it. You don't have to turn your back on the world, you don't have to live as He lived, you don't have to struggle to run the race of faith. It would be good if you did because then you will receive lots of unspecified prizes such as hats or crowns to wear, but if you don't, you're forgiven, even if you live as the world does, because the way to life is narrow and few find it. Though its a narrow road, after you believe you will live forever, you don't have to walk on that narrow road.

To use another posters word, I'm not being snarky. This is how I see and process what is being said. That the gospel is only: you will live forever, but everything else He said concerns "everyday life" and does not have to be believed.

Deep in my being, I hear this as a deal to cheat death. God help me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like a gospel of only one thing He said instead of all that He said. Deep in my being it sound's like putting your hand to the plow only long enough to get what you prize most - your life - and then turning back, wiping your mouth and saying, no one has caught me cheating.

When I hear the gospel being you will live forever and nothing else He said, I hear a voice echoing, I will cancel your deal to cheat death.

And I know these thoughts of mine make some people angry. But I can't help that. I have to follow my own conscience in it.

This is what I see from you post,

You must be perfect.

Thats what I see you say, yet I know you do not believe this.

If we HAVE turn your back, HAVE to live as he lived, We do not HAVE to struggle to run the race, Then we better be perfect. Because when you say you HAVE to do those things, you as much as say they are required to EARN salvation.

Can you live as Christ did? I have yet to find anyone who lived a sinless life. So no one lives as Christ did

Do you still sin? If you do. You have not turned your back completely to the world

Do you ever not complain about the struggles in this life? If you never do. Your better than anyone I ever met. If you have, then you have not lived up to the expectation of HAVING to do it or else

As you like to say,. That is what you see. this is what I see you demanding.

No. We do not HAVE to if we do. WE WILL FAIL and NO ONE WILL GET TO HEAVEN.

this strawman that we or those like us teach that a person can be saved and live in sin is for the birds. You know that’s is not true. So please stop trying to tell us we say this.

We say we can not obey according to what IS REQURIED (Perfection) that is why we need grace.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If you believe the above it proves in the very minimum that you have not listened to one word that has been said, or you have been dishonest with what has been said and or you willfully reject what has been said.....and I am not mad.....!

And to be honest.....that is tragic and makes a very profound statement about your character.....

I have listened to what has been said and I have said how I process it and hear it. I have not been dishonest, but completely open. I do however agree that I willfully reject it as not being a gospel of all Jesus said and commanded.

What my post says about my character I don't know. You seem to think my post throws my character into a tragic light. I can live with whatever you think about my character. It will not cause me to stop being open about what I hear in what someone says. After all, even after what you have alluded to about my character, I can say with certainty that you STILL think of my character as better than I myself do.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This is what I see from you post,

You must be perfect.

Thats what I see you say, yet I know you do not believe this.

If we HAVE turn your back, HAVE to live as he lived, We do not HAVE to struggle to run the race, Then we better be perfect. Because when you say you HAVE to do those things, you as much as say they are required to EARN salvation.

Can you live as Christ did? I have yet to find anyone who lived a sinless life. So no one lives as Christ did

Do you still sin? If you do. You have not turned your back completely to the world

Do you ever not complain about the struggles in this life? If you never do. Your better than anyone I ever met. If you have, then you have not lived up to the expectation of HAVING to do it or else

As you like to say,. That is what you see. this is what I see you demanding.

No. We do not HAVE to if we do. WE WILL FAIL and NO ONE WILL GET TO HEAVEN.

this strawman that we or those like us teach that a person can be saved and live in sin is for the birds. You know that’s is not true. So please stop trying to tell us we say this.

We say we can not obey according to what IS REQURIED (Perfection) that is why we need grace.

I am not trying to say that you say anything. I am saying how I process and hear what you are saying. So please do not say I am saying that you are saying anything. I am saying what I hear you are saying.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not trying to say that you say anything. I am saying how I process and hear what you are saying. So please do not say I am saying that you are saying anything. I am saying what I hear you are saying.

And I responded by showing you what I hear you saying.

And I showed it with your own words, and how I would have to interpret that you what you said so there is no misunderstanding why I see you saying those things.

Can you please show in myt words where I said any ot the things you say you hear me saying, or what could be construed as saying those things. Instead of just a blanket statement.

That is what gets us in trouble. And causes so many of these fights.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This is what I see from you post,

You must be perfect.

Thats what I see you say, yet I know you do not believe this.

If we HAVE turn your back, HAVE to live as he lived, We do not HAVE to struggle to run the race, Then we better be perfect. Because when you say you HAVE to do those things, you as much as say they are required to EARN salvation.

Can you live as Christ did? I have yet to find anyone who lived a sinless life. So no one lives as Christ did

Do you still sin? If you do. You have not turned your back completely to the world

Do you ever not complain about the struggles in this life? If you never do. Your better than anyone I ever met. If you have, then you have not lived up to the expectation of HAVING to do it or else

As you like to say,. That is what you see. this is what I see you demanding.

No. We do not HAVE to if we do. WE WILL FAIL and NO ONE WILL GET TO HEAVEN.

this strawman that we or those like us teach that a person can be saved and live in sin is for the birds. You know that’s is not true. So please stop trying to tell us we say this.

We say we can not obey according to what IS REQURIED (Perfection) that is why we need grace.

Okay, this is a very good way to talk. You are saying how you process and hear that I am saying I must be perfect. And further, that you do not believe I really think this.

I understand. And you are right, I do not think I have to be perfect. I think I only have to walk by the light/truth He is currently giving me to walk by and when I am able to bear more light/truth, He will see to it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, this is a very good way to talk. You are saying how you process and hear that I am saying I must be perfect. And further, that you do not believe I really think this.

I understand. And you are right, I do not think I have to be perfect. I think I only have to walk by the light/truth He is currently giving me to walk by and when I am able to bear more light/truth, He will see to it.

1. Then you do not think we MUST do those things, You think we SHOULD do those things as God leads us, And I would add, as our faith in him grows and we learn to trust him more.

2. Is your salvation dependent on this? What if you do not grow enough? And remains stagnant in a certain area?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

this strawman that we or those like us teach that a person can be saved and live in sin is for the birds. You know that’s is not true. So please stop trying to tell us we say this.

Per your request, here is where you said that I was saying you were saying something you were not saying and asking me to stop doing it.

But I didn't do that. I said how I processed and heard what you were saying.

So you are the one who has done what you said I was doing.

I was very careful in how I worded what I said because I knew you would ask me to stop saying that you were saying something because you do it all the time. But it is how conversation occurs that we process what we are hearing. Even if we do not specifically say: "here is what I process and hear you to be saying" it is still what we are doing nevertheless.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

1. Then you do not think we MUST do those things, You think we SHOULD do those things as God leads us, And I would add, as our faith in him grows and we learn to trust him more.

2. Is your salvation dependent on this? What if you do not grow enough? And remains stagnant in a certain area?

No. I do not think I SHOULD walk by whatever light/truth He is giving me to walk by, I think I MUST. The alternative would be to refuse the truth and walk in darkness...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not trying to say that you say anything. I am saying how I process and hear what you are saying. So please do not say I am saying that you are saying anything. I am saying what I hear you are saying.

And there is a difference?

if you hear me say that, that is the same as saying you believe I think that..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Per your request, here is where you said that I was saying you were saying something you were not saying and asking me to stop doing it.

But I didn't do that. I said how I processed and heard what you were saying.

So you are the one who has done what you said I was doing.

I was very careful in how I worded what I said because I knew you would ask me to stop saying that you were saying something because you do it all the time. But it is how conversation occurs that we process what we are hearing. Even if we do not specifically say: "here is what I process and hear you to be saying" it is still what we are doing nevertheless.

If I tell you I hear you say this, That is no different than me telling you you do believe this.. I am talking you what you believe I said, Just like your telling me what you believe I say.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And there is a difference?

if you hear me say that, that is the same as saying you believe I think that..

No it isn't the same thing. In fact, you proved that it isn't when you said you heard me to be saying I must be perfect but saying you didn't think I believed that.

So its how you processed and heard my words

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No. I do not think I SHOULD walk by whatever light/truth He is giving me to walk by, I think I MUST. The alternative would be to refuse the truth and walk in darkness...

if we must do it, We better do it up to Gods standard.

If not. We are lost..

You must obey every word, and ever jot and tittle. Or you are under a curse. TYhgis is what scripture says,,

You are under gravve, not law. Because you can not do what’s you claim we MUST do according to Gods standard.

You push a gas pedal on a car that is running, the engine will rev, if it is in gear, it will move the car.

This is our life. Our power is God, If we are saved, and the HS is in us, We will move, We may not all move the same, but we will move

Saying we must is legalism,

Saying we will, because God who said he has perfected forever as we are being sanctified, is reality, It is God who changes us, And it will happen. There is no must about it.

God puts the gas in our fuel tanks, God built created us in order to do what he wants, God pushes that gas pedal. It is God who is at work IN US He sanctity’s us, We do not sanctif ourselves, Saying we MUST is saying we have the power to do it ourselves. And to me, lacks faith in the power of God to do what he promised he would do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No it isn't the same thing. In fact, you proved that it isn't when you said you heard me to be saying I must be perfect but saying you didn't think I believed that.

So its how you processed and heard my words

The difference is I said I did not believe you said that. You did not say you do not think I am saying we can live in sin..

 

[MichaelOwen]

I just want to throw my hat in this ring for a second. First and foremost, to clear the air, we are not perfect, we're human, born into sin and faced with the temptation of it every single second the Lord allows us to breathe. That being said, God does not tempt man of evil, that comes from the prince of darkness, Satan and his angels. As to faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. As believers, we have faith in the author and finisher of our faith which is Christ Jesus, the ONLY perfect sacrifice to redeem us from the sin we were born into, so that when we came to know Him, we would have life eternal. There are two roads you can follow in this life, the road of darkness and rebellion, or the straight and narrow road that leads to Christ Jesus, there is no sitting on the fence, and you're deceived if you think you can do this. Paul clearly said faith without works is dead. If you're a follower of Jesus, you are going to have to work, and you're going to show works through your faith. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. A good tree can't give bad fruit, and a bad tree can't give good fruit. Ephesians 5: 22-23 clearly explains what fruits a true Christian should be displaying. One big word that pops up in those two verses is, again, FAITH. Without faith, you can't have works, and works without faith will not be enough.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

if we must do it, We better do it up to Gods standard.

If not. We are lost..

You must obey every word, and ever jot and tittle. Or you are under a curse. TYhgis is what scripture says,,

You are under gravve, not law. Because you can not do what’s you claim we MUST do according to Gods standard.

You push a gas pedal on a car that is running, the engine will rev, if it is in gear, it will move the car.

This is our life. Our power is God, If we are saved, and the HS is in us, We will move, We may not all move the same, but we will move

Saying we must is legalism,

Saying we will, because God who said he has perfected forever as we are being sanctified, is reality, It is God who changes us, And it will happen. There is no must about it.

God puts the gas in our fuel tanks, God built created us in order to do what he wants, God pushes that gas pedal. It is God who is at work IN US He sanctity’s us, We do not sanctif ourselves, Saying we MUST is saying we have the power to do it ourselves. And to me, lacks faith in the power of God to do what he promised he would do.

I don't think that saying I must walk in whatever light/truth He is currently giving me to walk in is legalism. It doesn't sit in my mind that walking in truth rather than deceit has anything to do with legalism but rather with honesty rather than deceits.

I don't know why my mind does not go to the place yours does, where you think if you MUST walk in truth rather than deceit(light rather than darkness) then you have to walk perfectly, but my mind just doesn't go there.

I just look at the light He is currently giving me, I pray, trust Him and I walk in it. The alternative for me would be to refuse the truth and walk in darkness.

How I process and hear what is being said is that continued and growing trust can't be a must and now walking in truth rather than deceits can't be a must. They have to be optional or I am being a legalist.

But this IS the way to me. To continue and grow in trust and to walk in truth rather than deceits, which are the useless way I learned from my parents and the world. If the way has now become should rather than must, then there IS no way to walk any more. If continued and growing faith and walking in truth are shoulds, there IS no way.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think that saying I must walk in whatever light/truth He is currently giving me to walk in is legalism. It doesn't sit in my mind that walking in truth rather than deceit has anything to do with legalism but rather with honesty rather than deceits.

I don't know why my mind does not go to the place yours does, where you think if you MUST walk in truth rather than deceit(light rather than darkness) then you have to walk perfectly, but my mind just doesn't go there.

I just look at the light He is currently giving me, I pray, trust Him and I walk in it. The alternative for me would be to refuse the truth and walk in darkness.

How I process and hear what is being said is that continued and growing trust can't be a must and now walking in truth rather than deceits can't be a must. They have to be optional or I am being a legalist.

But this IS the way to me. To continue and grow in trust and to walk in truth rather than deceits, which are the useless way I learned from my parents and the world. If the way has now become should rather than must, then there IS no way to walk any more. If continued and growing faith and walking in truth are shoulds, there IS no way.

Why because i have lived it, I have seen the damage it causes, i have seen many good fine people walk away from God because of it. And I have seen many religious leaders fall because of it.

I have seen people not in church tell us how much hypocrites christians are, because they dream and we MUST do this, when they can not live up to that standard at all.

Not to mention, EVERYONE I I know who teaches this also teaches salvation can be lost. So the root of the situation, I’ve if it is denied, is a lack of faith in God to grow is, and a insistence that we have to grow ourselves. Which is exactly what the word “must” determines.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Why because i have lived it, I have seen the damage it causes, i have seen many good fine people walk away from God because of it. And I have seen many religious leaders fall because of it.

I have seen people not in church tell us how much hypocrites christians are, because they dream and we MUST do this, when they can not live up to that standard at all.

Not to mention, EVERYONE I I know who teaches this also teaches salvation can be lost. So the root of the situation, I’ve if it is denied, is a lack of faith in God to grow is, and a insistence that we have to grow ourselves. Which is exactly what the word “must” determines.

I disagree that stressing continued and growing faith and walking in truth rather than deceit damages men.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree that stressing continued and growing faith and walking in truth rather than deceit damages men.

You act as if I do not stress continued and growing faith.

Stressing these things is not demanding people do it. It is encouraging people to do it in love mercy and grace. Which is exactly what jesus and the apostles did..

It is not decieptful to encouraged people and show them how to grow through grace and mercy and knowing our position in Christ, and seeking on the things of the spirit is what motivates us, Not demands which one must do or else.

They never worked for anyone.

 

[VCO]

I stand amazed at those who think they can embellish the message of Christ with works and still believe it is a gospel that saves or has power to save....the bible totally contradicts this line of thought.......there is but one correct message that can save and if one goes into that message ADDING or SUBTRACTING from it they void the message of power.....

Here is there Problem, they changed to a Different Gospel than the forefathers of the CHURCH TAUGHT:

2 Corinthians 11:2-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, because I have promised you in marriage to one husband—to present a pure virgin to Christ.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But I fear that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your minds may be seduced from a complete and pure devotion to Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For if a person comes and preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or you receive a different spirit, which you had not received, or a different gospel, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly!

Galatians 1:6-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from Him who called you by the grace of Christ ⌊and are turning⌋ to a different gospel—
[SUP]7 [/SUP] not that there is another ⌊gospel⌋, but there are some who are troubling you and want to change the good news about the Messiah.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him !
[SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, I now say again: If anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!


☝t<><

Polycarp’s Letter to the Philippians - composed around AD 110 to 140:

". . . knowing that “by grace you are saved, not of works,” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
but by the will of God through Jesus Christ . . ."


Clement of Rome between 88 AD to his death in 99:

"We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith"


Justin Martyr - born 100 AD, died 165:

"God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...


Athanasius - died 373:

"Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."


Origen born 184/185, died 253/254: "Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."


Jerome - born 347, died 420:

"When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone,
not on account of good works which he possessed not."



Chrysostom - born 349, died 14 September 407 :

"Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed."

 

[TruthTalk]

If you believe the above it proves in the very minimum that you have not listened to one word that has been said, or you have been dishonest with what has been said and or you willfully reject what has been said.....and I am not mad.....!

And to be honest.....that is tragic and makes a very profound statement about your character.....

Buying "fire insurance" is the best way to describe Stunnedbygrace's view of salvation. Our dedication to following Jesus mean's counting the cost of discipleship and that would mean some people here today will gladly lay down their earthly life for the Name of Jesus. Some people want the,
"Crown without the Cross."

The Great Commission - Matthew 28:18-20
“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

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Definition: Disciple: a learner, student or pupil.
Secular: Someone who accepts and helps spread the teachings of a famous person. Merriam-Webster
Biblical: Disciple; Gk. transliteration; mathetes, phonetically 'math-ay-tes', (noun/m). a learner, disciple, pupil.

Greek: mathētḗs; from math - "The mental effort needed to think something through." - properly, a learner,
a disciple, a follower of Christ who learns the doctrines of scripture and the lifestyle they require; someone
catechized with proper instruction from the bible with its necessary follow-through, life applications. (Strongs)