Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Really? You were once where I am now?

So you at one time did not believe "once saved always saved," yet had 100% full assurance of your salvation and had no fear of falling away from God?
I was once told my eternity is based on my performance, and always feared I could fall away from God. And I also saw many people walk away from God because they could not live up to the standard the church imposed on them, and instead of helping them, just judged them.

Legalism is dangerous. Dangerous to the one who believes in it, whether they think they do or not, and to those who are held prisoner by it.

 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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I was once told my eternity is based on my performance, and always feared I could fall away from God. And I also saw many people walk away from God because they could not live up to the standard the church imposed on them, and instead of helping them, just judged them.

Legalism is dangerous. Dangerous to the one who believes in it, whether they think they do or not, and to those who are held prisoner by it.

Got it! Agreed that Legalism is dangerous - and what you describe is where I have seen many people - not able to live up to the standard that the church imposes and they try and try on their own strength - and they keep failing - and eventually they give up . . .

And let me say it again - Legalism is dangerous and destructive - that is - the idea that I by my own self-effort and works can save myself - that will lead to fear and turmoil and big problems!


But that is not where I am - I have found the truth that "if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed" . . .

But not all who do not believe like you do are Legalists - even if you think they are . . . :)
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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If one believes their salvation can be lost, believes they have to do works in order to keep their salvation, does not believe in the power and the seal of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation, legalist is a very good word for description.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Got it! Agreed that Legalism is dangerous - and what you describe is where I have seen many people - not able to live up to the standard that the church imposes and they try and try on their own strength - and they keep failing - and eventually they give up . . .

And let me say it again - Legalism is dangerous and destructive - that is - the idea that I by my own self-effort and works can save myself - that will lead to fear and turmoil and big problems!


But that is not where I am - I have found the truth that "if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed" . . .

But not all who do not believe like you do are Legalists - even if you think they are . . . :)
This is what I think,


If you think or preach salvation can be lost. The you are who I think you are :)

Put it this way, If salvation can be lost. it must be earned.

It is exactly what Paul spoke of when he wrote to the galations. about beginning in the spirit (faith) and trying to perfect it in the flesh (works) many people preach this, or believe it, even when they think they do not. That makes it far worse than the legalist who thinks they are sinless or have already met Gods standard, and just judges everyone who has not attained their status,

If one think they have to maintain salvation. They are placing faith in self. Not God.

Either God saved us and we who he has perfected forever, start a process of being sanctified by him.

or he has not..

there is no inbeltween.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If one believes their salvation can be lost, believes they have to do works in order to keep their salvation, does not believe in the power and the seal of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation, legalist is a very good word for description.

Amen, Legalsim is a term which points to those who preach our eternal destiny is determined by a performance based system, You either live up to the standard, or you do not. If you fall below that standard at any time, salvation is forfeit, or lost.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Hi all...I just come across this picture on fb, what are your thoughts on it ?...
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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If one believes their salvation can be lost, believes they have to do works in order to keep their salvation, does not believe in the power and the seal of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation, legalist is a very good word for description.
Agreed!

But I dare you to find one person on CC who will say they agree with all three of your points.

That is: I do not think you will find one person on CC who will say they believe all three points:
(1)believes their salvation can be lost, (2) believes they have to do works in order to keep their salvation, and (3) does not believe in the power and the seal of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation

You can impose these beliefs on others - that is - say they believe them -- but then I would say you are becoming the "legalist"! LOL!
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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Certainly true. And the person who is unchanged and living his old life as a matter of lifestyle is showing that he is not bathed. Get it?
Didnt Jesus tell them first that they were clean through the Word?
 
Mar 7, 2016
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we are born saved and with purity we then get stages of unpurirty until we mature and beat the enemy..

we go through life being deceived and corrupted some need longer than others to be cleansed in spirit after life...

simples
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
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North Carolina
Agreed!

But I dare you to find one person on CC who will say they agree with all three of your points.

That is: I do not think you will find one person on CC who will say they believe all three points:
(1)believes their salvation can be lost, (2) believes they have to do works in order to keep their salvation, and (3) does not believe in the power and the seal of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation

You can impose these beliefs on others - that is - say they believe them -- but then I would say you are becoming the "legalist"! LOL!

I impose no belief on anyone. The scriptures tell us about salvation. The scriptures tell us about doing works/fruits after becoming saved. The scriptures tells us about the power of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation and after salvation.

There is nothing "legalistic" about those things. They are scriptural and God-spoken. One can either accept them or not.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Lord, open the eyes of the blind.

Why can't we simply, and purely understand that we MUST be born again?

Once we are born again, we are a new creation, inhabited by the Holy Spirit.

HE will transform us.
Why do some insist that THEY must transform themselves?
well said....
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
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North Carolina
Hi all...I just come across this picture on fb, what are your thoughts on it ?...

Very interesting. My thoughts are that one cannot "undo" what God Himself has sealed. Can one lose faith and hope in earthly gatherings, doctrines, etc? Yes. But I truly believe if one is born again that they will not depart from that.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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I was once told my eternity is based on my performance, and always feared I could fall away from God. And I also saw many people walk away from God because they could not live up to the standard the church imposed on them, and instead of helping them, just judged them.

Legalism is dangerous. Dangerous to the one who believes in it, whether they think they do or not, and to those who are held prisoner by it.


That's one of the reasons I stopped going to church for approx 15 years.
If that wasn't bad enough such people wrote me of as an unbeliever.

I remember when we wanted to dedicate my eldest daughter 17 years ago.


I got a call from the elder and it's was along the lines off "I see Katie is being dedicated on Sunday, can you honestly stand up in front of church that you no longer come to and dedicate your daughter to God?

I said "yes I can, in fact when she was born that's the first thing I did anyway in the delivery room.

I have seen people act in the right way at church yet I know they are broken and hurt. I was not going to be that person.
I left church not because I lost my faith in Jesus but lost my faith in the people of this church and you are one of them. So if you insist on me not standing in front of church and dedicating my daughter, go ahead because I've already done it anyway. I did it the first second she was in my arms, I lifted her up and gave her back to God"

No one and I mean no one came looking for me. It took 13 years before someone did, and that was the new leader who did not know me, but my wife was working in the church. He asked about me.

She explained what I was going through. Explained that any time I thought about going to church I could not sleep, I had nightmares, I couldn't eat and my anxiety and depression went through the roof. The worst nightmares were on Saturday nights.
Then I just couldn't go, then guilt overwhelmed me and added more weight on my shoulders.

Do you know what and this is shocking, when I dragged my sorry ass out of bed and made it to church I had people who knew me come up and say "Hello are you new here" thinking they were funny. On those few occasions is go home and cry.

Every day for those years I cried out to God and cried before God.

I thank God for the new elder. He came to see me. No agenda, just wanted to say hello. He didn't press church attendance at all.

For the next couple of years when I did go to church he sought me out, just to say hello. Talk about football, work. Ask how I was doing. When I didn't go he would say to my wife "Say hello to Bill from me"

It was he that eventually sought out, and it was he that walked me back into the church.
It was he that reassured me that I wasn't lost but understood why I had stopped coming to church. It was he that discipled me, walked in grace and revealed the grace of God.

It was he that agreed to restore me back to a ministry in church (yes it's true, before I stopped going to church I had a ministry) but it was a different one.

Legalism sucks the life out of someone, holds them prisoner, that was me.
Grace brings life and releases the prisoner, that's what I am now.

You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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Very interesting. My thoughts are that one cannot "undo" what God Himself has sealed. Can one lose faith and hope in earthly gatherings, doctrines, etc? Yes. But I truly believe if one is born again that they will not depart from that.
Hi star...[h=1]1 Timothy 4:1King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;...

It says here that some will depart from the faith, so depart must mean they were once in the faith...As I am walking with our LORD, I know the road gets narrower, and in some respects the walk becomes harder because we must pick up our cross daily and follow Jesus, and this means denying ourselves...So maybe this means that some were in the faith but found the cross to hard to bare so they gave up :confused:...I am learning as I walk, just seeking answers, but like I said, they had faith which means they believed, have these people stopped believing, or have they lost their faith :confused:...xox...[/FONT]
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
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I impose no belief on anyone. The scriptures tell us about salvation. The scriptures tell us about doing works/fruits after becoming saved. The scriptures tells us about the power of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation and after salvation.

There is nothing "legalistic" about those things. They are scriptural and God-spoken. One can either accept them or not.
Great! Well then here is what I believe:

(1) Salvation can be lost if one ceases to believe in Jesus
(2) We do not have to do works in order to keep our salvation
(3) I believe in the power and the seal of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hi star...1 Timothy 4:1King James Version (KJV)

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;...

It says here that some will depart from the faith, so depart must mean they were once in the faith...As I am walking with our LORD, I know the road gets narrower, and in some respects the walk becomes harder because we must pick up our cross daily and follow Jesus, and this means denying ourselves...So maybe this means that some were in the faith but found the cross to hard to bare so they gave up :confused:...I am learning as I walk, just seeking answers, but like I said, they had faith which means they believed, have these people stopped believing, or have they lost their faith :confused:...xox...
What is “the faith” here?

I think this is talking about in the last days, the gospel churches will lose people to false churches, or churches they make up. Orleave altogether. “The Faith” being the gospel/ not actual faith in God.

They depart from the faith (gospel) because they never really had faith in the gospel to begin with, Thats why people depart. Thy may act like a new creature, but as a dog you teach a new trick, he will always return to his vomit (what he really has faith in)

Thge people in Pauls day who left. Left because their true faith. Was in the law. They tried this new christian faith, but it was not what they expected. And went back to their vomit (the law)

 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
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Great! Well then here is what I believe:

(1) Salvation can be lost if one ceases to believe in Jesus
(2) We do not have to do works in order to keep our salvation
(3) I believe in the power and the seal of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation
Hi Chester.

I'm a little confused with the above

Salvation can be lost, we don't have to do works to keep salvation and salvation is when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation.

So when does someone receive salvation?
If one can lose it as you feel then were they not saved in the first place?

Not being obtuse but points 1&3 I can't reconcile.
I agree with point 2 but struggle also how that ties in with 1&3.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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What is “the faith” here?

I think this is talking about in the last days, the gospel churches will lose people to false churches, or churches they make up. Orleave altogether. “The Faith” being the gospel/ not actual faith in God.

They depart from the faith (gospel) because they never really had faith in the gospel to begin with, Thats why people depart. Thy may act like a new creature, but as a dog you teach a new trick, he will always return to his vomit (what he really has faith in)

Thge people in Pauls day who left. Left because their true faith. Was in the law. They tried this new christian faith, but it was not what they expected. And went back to their vomit (the law)

Thanks for that EG...I have so much to learn...I am reading the OT at the moment, so I am learning how people lived under the law, but we live under grace...I have read the NT but without reading the OT, I will never understand the NT...The puzzle is coming together, slowly but surely :)...xox...
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Thanks for that EG...I have so much to learn...I am reading the OT at the moment, so I am learning how people lived under the law, but we live under grace...I have read the NT but without reading the OT, I will never understand the NT...The puzzle is coming together, slowly but surely :)...xox...
you will be amazed when you see how they come together. And are so united. Only not in a way many think.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,708
4,073
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Thanks for that EG...I have so much to learn...I am reading the OT at the moment, so I am learning how people lived under the law, but we live under grace...I have read the NT but without reading the OT, I will never understand the NT...The puzzle is coming together, slowly but surely :)...xox...
Just want to add...From what you said above reminds me that they were so set in the laws that they now also had to have their mind renewed, must of been really hard, harder for them then it is for us :rolleyes:...And I also know I have to understand through the Holy Spirit leading who Jesus was addressing at the time, I have just started to understand what context means :D...WOW can we take things out of context...xox...