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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #50421
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”
    This is done for us. He is the Word that we guard.
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  2. #50422
    Senior Member Ralph-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    Paul taught faith alone
    No, he taught justification by faith 'apart from works'.

    James taught salvation is not by 'faith alone'.

    In context you can see these are two different arguments. But the church has melded them into one doctrine.........one enormously contradictory doctrine.

    The 'faith alone' argument is James' point not Paul's and means what it says he says it means. 'Apart from works' is Paul's argument and is addressing a different point about salvation. In context, 'faith alone' and 'apart from works' are not one and the same argument. You have to be careful to use 'faith alone' when talking about James' particular point, and use 'apart from works' when talking about the different point that Paul is making so we'll know which point about works and salvation your're addressing.
    Last edited by Ralph-; 4 Days Ago at 01:52 PM.
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  3. #50423


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Not really

    the only confusion is caused BY people trying to use james to prove we must earn our salvation by works.

    Paul taught faith alone, but faith will never be alone, And james taught faith will never be alone, and that just because one claims to have faith does not mean they had any faith at all.

    James said if one CLAIMS to have faiht, but has ZERO works, their faiht is dead. Another confusion, by saying one could have many works at a time in their life, yet still be lost, because of taking james out of context.

    If some one believes they are commanded to be baptized so that their sins will be forgiven, does that make them a faith plus believer?

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    That's right, eternal torment is for the wicked unsaved. That's why if we see ourselves in passages that describe the wicked who will not inherit the kingdom of God we have to examine ourselves. Once saved always saved doesn't change it so you and I can live in wickedness and we WILL inherit the kingdom of God. Understand?

    Whether you believe once saved always saved or not, if you are living in wickedness you aren't saved for it to even matter. Prove that you (and me) are not the wicked Paul and John say will not inherit the kingdom-DO SOMETHING so you'll know. If you can't bear spiritual fruit (kindness, peace, patience, long suffering, etc.) then you'll know that you need to fall on God's mercy and be saved. That's the gospel, and yet it's being rejected here as being judgmental.
    Looking unto Jesus, the author, and finisher of our faith. Looking away from self. Ralph, Ralph, when shall ye awaken?
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    If some one believes they are commanded to be baptized so that their sins will be forgiven, does that make them a faith plus believer?
    Why would you put your faith in the work of baptism and not God?

    What makes adding baptism any different than adding circumcision?

    Are we saved by faith, or works?
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?


    Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Yeknow not what manner of spirit ye are of.




    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    believest thou?





    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  7. #50427
    Senior Member Ralph-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    Looking unto Jesus, the author, and finisher of our faith. Looking away from self. Ralph, Ralph, when shall ye awaken?
    What does it matter if once saved always saved is true or not if you have no works when Jesus comes back?

    Answer...

    Calvinist: You are not saved and you never were to begin with.

    Arminian: You are not saved and you either never were to begin with, or you lost it along the way.

    Freegrace: You are saved just as long as you believed. Grace is a license for you to remain living in sin and you still be saved. (just informational, not trying to start a discussion about it).


    See? Only the last group believes you do not have to have works to be saved. But we will not discuss that group. We will discuss the fact that there is zero difference between Calvinist once saved always saved doctrine and Arminian not once saved always saved doctrine when it comes to the matter of whether or not works are required to be saved when Jesus comes back, works being the evidence of salvation. This is not a point of contention, except for the last group, but for some reason this thread has to go on and on and on about what we agree on.
    Last edited by Ralph-; 4 Days Ago at 02:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    JOHN 8; 36; If the Son sets you free,you will be free indeed. Do being set free mean being saved. I think the problem is that some believers don't know if they are saved or not. To be free is to be exempt from being lost. like everyone has to pay taxes, but some are exempt from paying them. Only Jesus can hold to that claim of setting you free,because only he can. ,and if he says so, then we are free if we believe. No one can tell you that you are not saved but Jesus,and only by faith do we believe him.., and nobody else.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Wrong

    What we knbow is Abraham had true faith, Using your mode of reasoning, Abraham would not have had much faith, He commited many sins AFTER he was declaired righteous. That should have disqualified him, and the righteousness he was given before he did works should have been revoked.

    We are still saved by FAITH NOT WORKS. That proved it.
    Yes, Abraham learned by his mistakes as did all those God considered Righteous. That's what children do, they learn by their mistakes, they learn from falling. It's part of life. But you ignore God's Words regarding Abraham.

    Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Abraham was considered righteous "BECAUSE" he followed God's Instructions, not because he rejected them as Uzzah did. You accuse Abraham of "many" sins after he turned to God in obedience. God, however, does not condemn him. But Cain God did condemn, Ham, God did condemn, Uzzah God did condemn. Like DJ said, it was because Abraham and Rehab trusted God enough to listen and follow His instructions that they were considered different than Uzzah and Ham who did not. Like Jesus said:

    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    No one is saying they can forgive their own sins EG. I don't know why you keep implying this. But there is a difference between the "works" of Abraham and Rehab, and the "works" of Ham and Uzzah. And the difference is discerned by their choices, their "works". One trusted God enough to listen and follow His instructions, and one didn't. How can you deny this?

  10. #50430
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”
    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    This is done for us. He is the Word that we guard.
    So His words are not the "my words" He is talking about?

    You are overspiritualizing...and ignoring what is CLERALY written.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    Of course I accept this as truth. Is this accomplished by commands or by the grace of God already given and received?
    I had a longer reply typed ddos attack erased it.

    None could ever be reconciled to YHWH if it were not from Yahshua's work as the Passover Sacrifice, after we have recieved and accepted that we are to do His will;

    1 John/Yahanan 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”


    John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”

    when you said is my "news good news" were you implyingf that saying obebience to Him is not "good" and only claiming Him is "good"?
    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    What does it matter if once saved always saved is true or not if you have no works when Jesus comes back?

    Answer...

    Calvinist: You are not saved and you never were to begin with.

    Arminian: You are not saved and you either never were to begin with, or you lost it along the way.

    Freegrace: You are saved just as long as you believed. Grace is a license for you to remain living in sin and you still be saved. (just informational, not trying to start a discussion about it).


    See? Only the last group believes you do not have to have works to be saved. But we will not discuss that group. We will discuss the fact that there is zero difference between Calvinist once saved always saved doctrine and Arminian not once saved always saved doctrine when it comes to the matter of whether or not works are required to be saved when Jesus comes back, works being the evidence of salvation. This is not a point of contention, except for the last group, but for some reason this thread has to go on and on and on about what we agree on.
    Am none of those. Just born of God through His offering of His Son. Member on earth of His body. Throw away mans labels. Pick up the Word.

    Believing what He says. Accepting the revelation given to Paul.
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    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    John/Yahanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."


    Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"


    Mat 4:17, “From that time יהושע began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”


    John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
    Hiz Temp acct.

  13. #50433
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    So His words are not the "my words" He is talking about?

    You are overspiritualizing...and ignoring what is CLERALY written.



    I had a longer reply typed ddos attack erased it.

    None could ever be reconciled to YHWH if it were not from Yahshua's work as the Passover Sacrifice, after we have recieved and accepted that we are to do His will;

    1 John/Yahanan 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”


    John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”

    when you said is my "news good news" were you implyingf that saying obebience to Him is not "good" and only claiming Him is "good"?
    It's never good to trust in horses, chariots or anything of earth. The Name who is above all names.

    And did not Jesus say only God is good?
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    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  14. #50434


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Why would you put your faith in the work of baptism and not God?

    What makes adding baptism any different than adding circumcision?

    Are we saved by faith, or works?
    Why would you put your faith in the work of baptism and not God?
    I don't and never said I did.

    What makes adding baptism any different than adding circumcision?
    Two different subjects but circumcision was required and not an option. Would you tell Moses not to circumcise his sons?

    Are we saved by faith, or works?
    We are saved by faith but not faith alone.

    Okay, I now answered three of your questions how about answering my simple question.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    It's never good to trust in horses, chariots or anything of earth. The Name who is above all names.

    And did not Jesus say only God is good?
    How does this have ANYTHING to do with saying He should or should not be obeyed? Also how is it by relying and trusting His words are true, including those that say to obey Him "not trusting Him"?

    Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”
    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    John/Yahanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."


    Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"


    Mat 4:17, “From that time יהושע began to proclaim and to say, “Repent, for the reign of the heavens has drawn near.”


    John/Yahanan 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
    Be born again. I obeyed. Be filled with His Spirit. I obeyed. Abide in Him. Thank God for the greater revelation of what abiding means. Am sticking to Him like glue.

    When He speaks, step out and do. Over spiritualizing? Be led of His Spirit. Sheep, which we really are no longer though I will not argue this now, hear His Voice. His body does more than just follow. We are one with Him. How else can we be except by Spirit?

    The written Word is good. Coupled with His Spirit is better.
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    How does this have ANYTHING to do with saying He should or should not be obeyed? Also how is it by relying and trusting His words are true, including those that say to obey Him "not trusting Him"?

    Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”
    I asked you what is He is telling you to do?
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  18. #50438
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    How does this have ANYTHING to do with saying He should or should not be obeyed? Also how is it by relying and trusting His words are true, including those that say to obey Him "not trusting Him"?

    Mat 7:24-27, “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”
    It has to do with relying on self for anything.
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  19. #50439
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    Be born again. I obeyed. Be filled with His Spirit. I obeyed. Abide in Him. Thank God for the greater revelation of what abiding means. Am sticking to Him like glue.

    When He speaks, step out and do. Over spiritualizing? Be led of His Spirit. Sheep, which we really are no longer though I will not argue this now, hear His Voice. His body does more than just follow. We are one with Him. How else can we be except by Spirit?

    The written Word is good. Coupled with His Spirit is better.
    His Spirit does not do or teach anything against what He spoke and is written:

    John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”


    John/Yahanan 6:63, “It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting.”

    IF the "spirit" is saying something other than what is written, it is not His Spirit.
    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    I don't and never said I did.
    So you do not believe that baptism is required for salvation? Since when?

    Two different subjects but circumcision was required and not an option. Would you tell Moses not to circumcise his sons?[/quote]
    So why did paul say if your gonna be circumcised your indebted to the whole law? Why did paul sayif you add circumcision, your teaching a different gospel?

    No. they are not different subjects, they are both commands of God.


    We are saved by faith but not faith alone.
    Then we are not saved by grace, but by works.

    Okay, I now answered three of your questions how about answering my simple question.
    I already did, you could not figure out by what I said?

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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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