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Thread: Not By Works

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Abraham did not just believe God, He trusted him, If he just believed him, we would never know who abraham was.

    please do not tell me you do not know the difference between believe, and faith.
    As Scripture stated, righteous was imputed to Abraham the moment he believed what God said. Zero obedience needed. But, Abraham had faith as shown we he obeyed God to offer up Isaac. Faith requires obedience. Faith requires evidence.

    We are saved through believing the gospel. Nothing is required for us to be saved other than believing the gospel. Once we are saved, faith is obeying God at His word that He has commanded believers to walk in.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    vipers...whitewashed tombs...they were wicked 1.
    Amen sister, I agree...

    This is just how I see it, I think they believed that God was real, but they didn't really want any part of his ways. They wanted to do it their way. So even though they knew he was real, they put their selves and their ways above him. They did not want to truly surrender unto HIM.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Righteous was imputed to Abraham the moment he believed what God said. Zero obedience needed. But, Abraham had faith as shown we he obeyed God to offer up Isaac. Faith requires obedience. Faith requires evidence.

    We are saved through believing the gospel. Nothing is required for us to be saved other than believing the gospel. Once we are saved, faith is obeying God at His word that He has commanded believers to walk in.
    Faith does not require anything, Faith will always be followed by works, period.

    Please stop. Your buying into the legalistic view.

    The best way I heard is explained was like this.

    A man ran a tight rope across niagra falls. He took a wheelbarrow. Loaded it with enough stones to add the same weight of a normal man, And he asked how many people believed he could take a man which was represented by the weight of the stones, and make it across. No one raised their hand because no one believed he could

    He then took it across the line from one side to the other multiple times.

    The crowd roared with applause, and the man asked again, Who believes I can take a man across the falls in this wheelbarrow. Everyone raised their hand

    Then the man asked for Volonteers, and he would give 1000 dollars to who ever went with him. No one raised thier hand or came forward. (Fall would mean certain death)

    Why?

    They believed he could, because he proved he could, but no one trusted he could, they were not going to put their life in his hands no matter how much they would gain.

    Again, as I have told you multiple times, the problem is with the English language, Yet you keep trying to push the issue.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    this isnt the only place in scripture that speaks of our inheritance.

    We just skim over words at times, and then comes the aha moment. I do it all the time, then want to kick myself for not seeing it before.

    and thank you for the kind words.

    Also, my husband is a Levite. He will gladly receive your tithes.
    And if Jesus were not my High Priest, I would give them to Him.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    As Scripture stated, righteous was imputed to Abraham the moment he believed what God said. Zero obedience needed. But, Abraham had faith as shown we he obeyed God to offer up Isaac. Faith requires obedience. Faith requires evidence.

    We are saved through believing the gospel. Nothing is required for us to be saved other than believing the gospel. Once we are saved, faith is obeying God at His word that He has commanded believers to walk in.

    Your not saved by mere belief, James said even demons believe and tremble. You believe you do well. But what will it get you, will it save you? NO!
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    It is fascinating to you. Yet your The only one who thinks as you do.

    So keep being fascinated. I will keep believeing reality. (Paul said so himself. Yet you ignore what Paul said so.)
    Studyman is by no means "the only one who thinks" this way. Count me in also as a believer that Abraham was blessed because of his obedience. Was Abraham perfect, of course not. But when commanded to act he did. It was because of his action that he was blessed not his belief in the command.

    It is people like you who are neck deep into faith alone regeneration theology who are blind to the very flow and form of the scriptures. You are butchering the word "faith" into a meaningless expression of belief. In other words, faith without action is simply mental assent. Jesus exposed this nonsense of faith without action in the parable of the 2 sons, Matthew 21: 28-32.

    Question: Which son did the will of the father? Answer: Obviously the one that did the will of the father.

    There is no reality in faith alone regeneration theology. It may help some to sleep at night but the spirit filled believer knows better.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Your not saved by mere belief, James said even demons believe and tremble. You believe you do well. But what will it get you, will it save you? NO!
    Demons don't believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Demons believe there is one God.

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Scripture states that all it takes is belief.

    Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    Holy Spirit is given once accompanied with giftings according to His will. And I didn't say at anytime to not do His instructions,

    My idea of the works we are called to do is not just good things done to people. Though they can be. Jesus spelled out what works are to be done before He left.

    Why butt out?
    I was poking a little fun, no malice intended.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    I want to agree with and add to Abraham was found right and righteous because his faith and his works:

    FAITH:


    Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”


    Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of יהוה came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."


    WORKS:


    Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”


    FAITH + WORKS:


    James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”


    FAITH + WORKS:


    Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”


    By belief, Aḇraham obeyed


    Hebrews 11
    11:8, "By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
    11:9, "By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"
    11:10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.
    11:17, "By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son,
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    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Studyman is by no means "the only one who thinks" this way. Count me in also as a believer that Abraham was blessed because of his obedience.
    we are not talking about being blessed. of course he was blessed because he obeyed, We are not talking about blessed though we ate etalking about salvation.

    Also. This is not my beef against Study man, so you just put your foot in your mouth. And stuck your nose in something which was not there

    It is people like you who are neck deep into faith alone regeneration theology who are blind to the very flow and form of the scriptures. You are butchering the word "faith" into a meaningless expression of belief. In other words, faith without action is simply mental assent. Jesus exposed this nonsense of faith without action in the parable of the 2 sons, Matthew 21: 28-32.
    yet it is me who states true faith WILL ALWAYS PRODUCE WORKS.

    so again, you just amber tased yourself again.


    Question: Which son did the will of the father? Answer: Obviously the one that did the will of the father.
    All Gods children do the will of the father, I have never denied this,

    There is no reality in faith alone regeneration theology. It may help some to sleep at night but the spirit filled believer knows better.
    Keep talking and keep embarrassing yourself.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    I want to agree with and add to Abraham was found right and righteous because his faith and his works:

    FAITH:

    Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”

    Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of יהוה came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."


    WORKS:

    Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”

    By belief, Aḇraham obeyed

    Hebrews 11
    11:8, "By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
    11:9, "By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"
    11:10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.
    11:17, "By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son,

    FAITH + WORKS:

    James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

    FAITH + WORKS:

    Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    As Scripture stated, righteous was imputed to Abraham the moment he believed what God said. Zero obedience needed. But, Abraham had faith as shown we he obeyed God to offer up Isaac. Faith requires obedience. Faith requires evidence.

    We are saved through believing the gospel. Nothing is required for us to be saved other than believing the gospel. Once we are saved, faith is obeying God at His word that He has commanded believers to walk in.
    We are saved through believing the gospel. Nothing is required for us to be saved other than believing the gospel.
    If this statement is true then verses such as Luke 13:5, Romans 10:9, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 etc. should not even exist. The verbiage that connects them to salvation has no place in scripture yet they exist.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Count me in also as a believer that Abraham was blessed because of his obedience
    Romans 4
    4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    _______________

    Galatians Chapter 3

    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”


    Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Faith does not require anything, Faith will always be followed by works, period.

    Please stop. Your buying into the legalistic view.

    The best way I heard is explained was like this.

    A man ran a tight rope across niagra falls. He took a wheelbarrow. Loaded it with enough stones to add the same weight of a normal man, And he asked how many people believed he could take a man which was represented by the weight of the stones, and make it across. No one raised their hand because no one believed he could

    He then took it across the line from one side to the other multiple times.

    The crowd roared with applause, and the man asked again, Who believes I can take a man across the falls in this wheelbarrow. Everyone raised their hand

    Then the man asked for Volonteers, and he would give 1000 dollars to who ever went with him. No one raised thier hand or came forward. (Fall would mean certain death)

    Why?

    They believed he could, because he proved he could, but no one trusted he could, they were not going to put their life in his hands no matter how much they would gain.

    Again, as I have told you multiple times, the problem is with the English language, Yet you keep trying to push the issue.
    Faith does not require anything, Faith will always be followed by works, period
    Regardless of if faith will always be followed by works, if a work is commanded for salvation to be granted the work is still required. Can you not see this?

    Your example of the tight rope walker is offbase. The ability of the tight rope walker to cross back and forth does not warrant the crowd to not see the possibility of a fall at some point. After seeing the crossings I too would believe he could do it again but I would also still believe he could still fall. Hence I would not get in the wheelbarrow.

    A better example is Peter walking on the water.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    Sorry, but this isn't true. You misused it (John 3:36) to prove loss of salvation.

    I won't have dialog with someone being dishonest about things stated. Sorry if that offends you.
    Here was my entire response of which you quoted only the first part (which I put here in bold print) (post 50456)

    "You are misrepresenting my presentation of John 3:36
    , though I agree with you that it does not mean "loss of salvation". I did misread it and I will admit that. You helped me understand the text better."

    When I said you "misrepresented" my presentation I simply meant that you weren't getting what I was trying to say. But you did find and clearly point out my wrong use of John 3:36: No argument about that.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Chester View Post
    Here was my entire response of which you quoted only the first part (which I put here in bold print) (post 50456)

    "You are misrepresenting my presentation of John 3:36
    , though I agree with you that it does not mean "loss of salvation". I did misread it and I will admit that. You helped me understand the text better."

    When I said you "misrepresented" my presentation I simply meant that you weren't getting what I was trying to say. But you did find and clearly point out my wrong use of John 3:36: No argument about that.
    You've corrected your stance after I called you on it. That doesn't change what I was referring to in that response. Changing your position after the fact and responses is a bit disingenuous. I was speaking of where you actually stated it means loss of salvation. You're conflating the two conversations bro to make it appear I misspoke I suppose. Anyhow no biggie so let's move forward.

    Furthermore you said I admitted there are no texts that support faith alone. This is simply not true either because I have claimed there are and you must have missed this. James 2:14 is one that can be used to support this. Romans 4 would be another passage.

    It is true faith alone my brother. Also thanks for seeing the faulty view of John 3:36 and correcting that. It is really good to see a man of God do this bro.
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    Open Theism and Molinism, two inept theological camps, do err in this sense; God doesn't have an R&D department, He does all things perfectly.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    we are not talking about being blessed. of course he was blessed because he obeyed, We are not talking about blessed though we ate etalking about salvation.

    Also. This is not my beef against Study man, so you just put your foot in your mouth. And stuck your nose in something which was not there



    yet it is me who states true faith WILL ALWAYS PRODUCE WORKS.

    so again, you just amber tased yourself again.




    All Gods children do the will of the father, I have never denied this,



    Keep talking and keep embarrassing yourself.
    Well EG, to be honest you did say:

    It is fascinating to you. Yet your The only one who thinks as you do.
    You left the door open to anyone who disagrees with this statement you posted. DJ isn't sticking his nose where it doesn't belong, you invited him and others when you made this statement that apparently isn't true.

    There are a few who know the Pharisees were not obeying God as you preach, but their own Laws they created. They also know it was Abraham's "Faithfulness" and honor towards God that prompted God to bless him with Salvation and "faithlessness and dishonor that caused Him to destroy Sodom.

    Should a brother help another brother when they he has fallen?

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Anything that requires effort is work.
    Yes, that is correct.
    So God himself through Son the two as one in unison did the work for us, Since no one could ever do it perfectly

    In this done work we get to do it too, not by us by Son's done work for us. This is a gift given and to remain a gift, it can not have any work of self ever to remain a gift.

    So Father does not tell you to do it, he just simply gave it

    Colossians 1:21-23Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

    22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

    23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    So see it as it is, God did for you, you, you and all the world to turn to him in belief to this great mystery hidden from the foundation of this world we are in.

    Rest, not the definition of 5this world, God definition

    Hebrews 4:9-11Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    So if anyone is listening and takes all this to Father in prayer will hear from the source directly and have the truth over the error of first-born flesh and blood

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    =NoNameMcgee;3416624]Romans 4
    4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
    Paul is speaking about "Justification". God created a "Levitical Priesthood" with sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins. Abraham had God's Laws except he didn't have this Levitical Priesthood, it was added 430 years later. (Gal. 3 is also speaking of this same law) Abraham was forgiven his sins by faith in God, not by Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

    He set this up in;

    Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    _______________
    Galatians Chapter 3

    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Lets see the promise.

    Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    But Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood, Levi wasn't even born yet. That Law was "ADDED" 430 years later.

    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

    18 For if the inheritance be of the (Added Law 430 years later) law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. And we know why, because Abraham trusted God enough to follow His instructions.

    19 Wherefore then serveth the law?(That was Added 430 years later) It was added because of transgressions,(of the Law Abraham was blessed for keeping) till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    Now the Seed has come, and Paul is telling the Galatians that they are no longer justified by "works of the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial Law" for justification.

    But the promises and the reason for the promise to Abraham still stand.

    Rom. 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    This is the "Law of Faith" Abraham obeyed.

    13 (For not the hearers of the law(Sodom, Cain, Ham, Pharisees) are just before God, but the doers of the law (Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Daniel, Stephen)shall be justified.

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