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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #50501
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    You've corrected your stance after I called you on it. That doesn't change what I was referring to in that response. Changing your position after the fact and responses is a bit disingenuous. I was speaking of where you actually stated it means loss of salvation. You're conflating the two conversations bro to make it appear I misspoke I suppose. Anyhow no biggie so let's move forward.

    Furthermore you said I admitted there are no texts that support faith alone. This is simply not true either because I have claimed there are and you must have missed this. James 2:14 is one that can be used to support this. Romans 4 would be another passage.

    It is true faith alone my brother. Also thanks for seeing the faulty view of John 3:36 and correcting that. It is really good to see a man of God do this bro.
    I said (post 50402): "You have admitted there is no Scripture that says that we are saved by "faith alone" -

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Demons don't believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Demons believe there is one God.

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    Scripture states that all it takes is belief.

    Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Why do people even bother?

    Demons believe in God.
    end of story. I am not arguing this crap with you. Because you will not listen
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Chester View Post
    I said (post 50402): "You have admitted there is no Scripture that says that we are saved by "faith alone" -
    There are tons of Scripture as i have posted stating we are saved by belief alone.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Regardless of if faith will always be followed by works, if a work is commanded for salvation to be granted the work is still required. Can you not see this?
    itis not required for salvation, if it is,we are saved by works not grace,

    end of story.


    Your example of the tight rope walker is offbase. The ability of the tight rope walker to cross back and forth does not warrant the crowd to not see the possibility of a fall at some point. After seeing the crossings I too would believe he could do it again but I would also still believe he could still fall. Hence I would not get in the wheelbarrow.

    A better example is Peter walking on the water.
    thanks you just my point, you believed, but you did not have faith.

    Now why do you not have faith God will take you to eternal life?
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Why do people even bother?

    Demons believe in God.
    end of story. I am not arguing this crap with you. Because you will not listen
    i'm with you. if people are going to insist to twist and refuse to accept clear Scripture, then God speed to them, but like you I am tired of all the willful blindness.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    Well EG, to be honest you did say:



    You left the door open to anyone who disagrees with this statement you posted. DJ isn't sticking his nose where it doesn't belong, you invited him and others when you made this statement that apparently isn't true.

    There are a few who know the Pharisees were not obeying God as you preach, but their own Laws they created. They also know it was Abraham's "Faithfulness" and honor towards God that prompted God to bless him with Salvation and "faithlessness and dishonor that caused Him to destroy Sodom.

    Should a brother help another brother when they he has fallen?

    I said no one else believes the Pharisees did not think they were righteous by the law.
    He did not disagree with that. So end of story.
    Keep it up you will find your self on ignore.
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”
    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    I said no one else believes the Pharisees did not think they were righteous by the law.
    He did not disagree with that. So end of story.
    Keep it up you will find your self on ignore.
    the pharisees thought they were righteous bt their own law, they did not even say they were followingthe Law of YHWH but they themselves said "tradition of the elders":

    Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."
    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by gb9 View Post
    i'm with you. if people are going to insist to twist and refuse to accept clear Scripture, then God speed to them, but like you I am tired of all the willful blindness.
    Are you ignoring all the Scripture stating believe, believe, believe? Devils believe there is one God. So what? That's not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. That's the belief that counts. What's your point?

  10. #50510


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Are you ignoring all the Scripture stating believe, believe, believe? Devils believe there is one God. So what? That's not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. That's the belief that counts. What's your point?
    I don't have a point. neither do you.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    You've corrected your stance after I called you on it. That doesn't change what I was referring to in that response. Changing your position after the fact and responses is a bit disingenuous. I was speaking of where you actually stated it means loss of salvation. You're conflating the two conversations bro to make it appear I misspoke I suppose. Anyhow no biggie so let's move forward.

    Furthermore you said I admitted there are no texts that support faith alone. This is simply not true either because I have claimed there are and you must have missed this. James 2:14 is one that can be used to support this. Romans 4 would be another passage.

    It is true faith alone my brother. Also thanks for seeing the faulty view of John 3:36 and correcting that. It is really good to see a man of God do this bro.
    You are to be commended for accepting my half-twisted confession which allows me to keep a little whiff of CC dignity! LOL! I think too we need to leave that behind and move on . . .

    On the "faith-only" issue:

    I said earlier (direct quote): "You have admitted there is no Scripture that says that we are saved by "faith alone"

    I may have been too quick with that statement and maybe I got mixed up with someone else: not sure and I don't have the time to check it out thoroughly now: If you didn't say that, I apologize.

    Here is what I am meaning: There is no Scripture that states word-for-word that "we are saved by faith alone". (Word-for-word! Exactly!) You won't find a Scripture verse that says it. (This is what I thought you admitted, but I may be wrong . . .?)

    You will find Scriptures that support the doctrine of "Sola Fide" (faith alone): including James 2:14 and Romans 4 as you point out. No problem with that. I am in full support of a correct understanding of this doctrine.

    I have just personally decided that in my cultural and church situation I will be misunderstood if I speak of "faith alone". I have decided there are clearer ways for me to present the doctrine of "faith alone": that is: I will speak of the grace of God working in the heart that produces a saving faith - then this faith will allow God to work through the believer to produce works to honor and glorify Him.

    I am OK with being a "versologist" - not quite sure what that word was! And I will admit there are dangers to an over-amplification of this approach.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    As Scripture stated, righteous was imputed to Abraham the moment he believed what God said. Zero obedience needed. But, Abraham had faith as shown we he obeyed God to offer up Isaac. Faith requires obedience. Faith requires evidence.
    If you don't mind can I proffer the following.

    Genesis 12:1-4
    Chapter 12
    Promises to Abram
    1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
    “Get out of your country,
    From your family
    And from your father's house,
    To a land that I will show you.
    2 I will make you a great nation;
    I will bless you
    And make your name great;
    And you shall be a blessing.
    3 I will bless those who bless you,
    And I will curse him who curses you;
    And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
    4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

    God says "Get up and leave your country and I will do this, this I promise to you"

    Abram believed had faith. God said Abram did.
    His faith led to obedience.


    Last edited by BillG; 6 Days Ago at 06:23 PM.
    Lord

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    There are tons of Scripture as i have posted stating we are saved by belief alone.
    Ah, post 50501 was a complete mistake: I was putting together another post and must have accidently pushed a wrong button.

    See post 50511

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by gb9 View Post
    I don't have a point. neither do you.
    If you've been tuning in, my point is Scripture is very clear about salvation. Salvation comes through believing the gospel of Jesus Christ as the tons of Scripture I posted. And those were just a few of many more.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    If you've been tuning in, my point is Scripture is very clear about salvation. Salvation comes through believing the gospel of Jesus Christ as the tons of Scripture I posted. And those were just a few of many more.
    o.k. I agree with this. well, except when you say " Scripture ", you mean the 1611 version only . there are many more modern translations that are fine.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Why do many ignore the fact that Abraham had faith and works before YHWH:


    FAITH:


    Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”


    Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of יהוה came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."


    WORKS:


    Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”


    FAITH + WORKS:


    James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”


    FAITH + WORKS:


    Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”


    By belief, Aḇraham obeyed


    Hebrews 11
    8, “By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
    9, By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"
    10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.
    17, By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son.”


    Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”


    Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    Why do many ignore the fact that Abraham had faith and works before YHWH:


    FAITH:


    Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness.”


    Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of יהוה came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."


    WORKS:


    Genesis 26:5, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws.”


    FAITH + WORKS:


    James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”


    FAITH + WORKS:


    Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”


    By belief, Aḇraham obeyed


    Hebrews 11
    8, “By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
    9, By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"
    10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.
    17, By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son.”


    Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”


    Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”
    I posted Gen 12 above

    And said the following

    "God says "Get up and leave your country and I will do this, this I promise you"

    Abram believed, had faith. God said Abram did.
    His faith led to obedience"
    And you quote Hebrews 11 which I think ties in with my thoughts.

    You then quote Gen15,26 then Rev 14.

    What commandments did Abram have in Gen 26?

    You then say FAITH + WORKS aka obedience.

    I say FAITH is FAITH full stop.
    Genuine FAITH in Jesus leads to obedience with produces works.

    Abram had not even offered up his son, he left behind he knew and was as a result of his faith.
    He heard, believed and did.
    Lord

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by 1ofthem View Post
    Amen sister, I agree...

    This is just how I see it, I think they believed that God was real, but they didn't really want any part of his ways. They wanted to do it their way. So even though they knew he was real, they put their selves and their ways above him. They did not want to truly surrender unto HIM.
    Yes because they were children of the devil...

    John 8:44-45 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not...xox...
    PSALM 107:20 He sends His word and heals me and rescues me from the pit and destruction.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    I posted Gen 12 above

    And said the following

    "God says "Get up and leave your country and I will do this, this I promise you"

    Abram believed, had faith. God said Abram did.
    His faith led to obedience"
    And you quote Hebrews 11 which I think ties in with my thoughts.

    You then quote Gen15,26 then Rev 14.

    What commandments did Abram have in Gen 26?

    You then say FAITH + WORKS aka obedience.

    I say FAITH is FAITH full stop.
    Genuine FAITH in Jesus leads to obedience with produces works.

    Abram had not even offered up his son, he left behind he knew and was as a result of his faith.
    He heard, believed and did.
    As to what Laws Abraham had in Gen 26, It would seem to be Sabbath because was done at creation, food laws because Noah knew them, some kind of offering/sacrifical system because cain and Abel knew them, having no mighty ones before the face of YHWH because "leave Ur", not make name of YHWH empty as Abraham himself prayed with the name of YHWH, and others buit those are off the top of my head, if I want to make a study out of it, which I have it seems Abraham had all of YHWH's Laws. But to get to the rest of the point:

    well I think it would be better described as belief + works = faith, sometyhin I have known but it really just clicked in that I need to word it like that, because faith is:

    Habakkuk 2:4, "Behold the proud, his soul is not right in him; but the just will live by faith."


    faith” is word #H530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah (em-oo-naw') n-f., אֱמֻנָה 'emunah (em-oo-naw') [shortened], 1. (literally) firmness., 2. (figuratively) security., 3. (morally) fidelity.
    [feminine of H529], KJV: faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. , Root(s): H529

    faith” is word #H530 Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness

    faith” #H530 Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
    Feminine of H0529; literally firmness; figuratively security; moral fidelity:—faith (-ful, -ly, -ness, [man]), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily.


    Overall Im not saying you are "wrong", im a general view I think we agree but speciffically but I think we shoul look more directly at what is written:

    Genesis 15:4-6, "And see, the word of יהוה came to him, saying, “This one is not your heir, but he who comes from your own body is your heir. And He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward the heavens, and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So are your seed. And he believed in יהוה, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness."





    Genesis 26:4-5, “And I shall increase your seed like the stars of the heavens, and I shall give all these lands to your seed. And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because Aḇraham obeyed My voice and guarded My Charge: My commands, My laws, and My Torah.”



    I think James understands it more than you or I:



    James 2:21-22, “Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the altar? Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?”

    belief and works is why Abraham was right before Yah.
    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosemaryx View Post
    Yes because they were children of the devil...

    John 8:44-45 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not...xox...
    Amen...thanks for the post sister...God bless you...

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