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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #50581
    Senior Member Shamah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    No, actually it is true......Paul was clear...Outwardly as a Pharisee and concerning the law he was beyond reproach....can't you workers for get your facts straight? Obviously not!!
    in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    Philippians 3:5
    New International Version
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    English Standard Version
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;

    Berean Study Bible
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

    Berean Literal Bible
    circumcision on the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; according to the Law, a Pharisee;

    New American Standard Bible
    circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

    in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    this meant he honored the tradtion of the elders...


    Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."


    Studyman and ElAmor like this.
    Hiz Temp acct.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    I've been falsely accused by Chester on here concerning his usage (misusage) of John 3:36, when I stated he tried to turn it into a verse proving loss of salvation.

    He denied he said this, and then told me I misrepresented him.

    Well, sorry, as I stated, that is not true, I did not misrepresent him at all.

    Here is his quote stating it himself to which I referred:



    ...not sure why there is so much dishonesty among Christians on here.
    If one believes a false gospel with no power to save what can a man rightfully and biblically conclude?

    And

    If one is not saved by faith into the correct message....by default one is not Christian.....

    ☆Disclaimer☆ Not saying or implying anyone is not saved or a Christian....just stating the FACTS.....MANY will claim him, boast of works in his name as a right to enter and find out tragically that their gospel and belief were false. ..albeit too late!

  3. #50583
    Senior Member Shamah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."


    John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”




    John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
    Hiz Temp acct.

  4. #50584
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    Philippians 3:5
    New International Version
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    English Standard Version
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;

    Berean Study Bible
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

    Berean Literal Bible
    circumcision on the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; according to the Law, a Pharisee;

    New American Standard Bible
    circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

    in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    this meant he honored the tradtion of the elders...


    Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

    The verbiage is clear....go push your working for, law keeping drivel on someone else....

    as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

  5. #50585
    Senior Member Shamah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    Philippians 3:5
    New International Version
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    English Standard Version
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;

    Berean Study Bible
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

    Berean Literal Bible
    circumcision on the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; according to the Law, a Pharisee;

    New American Standard Bible
    circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

    in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    this meant he honored the tradtion of the elders...


    Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    The verbiage is clear....go push your working for, law keeping drivel on someone else....

    as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
    Rude as ever I see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    Philippians 3:5
    New International Version
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    So the pharisees kept the Law of YHWH blameles to you? Odd seems Yahshua sys different.
    Hiz Temp acct.

  6. #50586
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Even as Abraham believed God, and it(his belief) was accounted to him for righteousness.

    So what do you think the difference is between belief and faith?
    My view is context determines the way the word is viewed...

    It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    Therefore we conclude a man is justified (rendered innocent before God) by faith.

    For by grace are you saved by faith..........

    He that BELIEVES on the Son is having everlasting life.

    Both = the same thing biblically when applied unto the work and blood of Christ.....James is using believe (as applied to the demons) in a generic sense toward God.....they know and believe that God is real but have no faith in the work of Christ as fallen eternally lost angels which left their first estate and fell. A man may claim to have faith....without the proof in the pudding perse his claim is no different than the fallen angels which believe that God is real......this in no way, shape or form = a works based salvation, but rather addresses the ability of men to see physically that inward faith or belief that does the 4 listed above......I will remind you...creation speaks volumes concerning fruit being produced and the complete gambit of production.....some little, some much, some haphazardly and even an apple tree is an apple tree from the moment it sprouts skme 2 to 4 years before it produces 1 piece of fruit (work) and may go 30 years without production after the initial apple......

  7. #50587
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    Rude as ever I see.




    So the pharisees kept the Law of YHWH blameles to you? Odd seems Yahshua sys different.
    Paul was inspired by Jesus...my quote proves your rebuttal wrong...swallow your pride and admit your error....or...be like the Pharisee of old and ride your pride to judgment!

  8. #50588
    Senior Member Shamah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Paul was inspired by Jesus...my quote proves your rebuttal wrong...swallow your pride and admit your error....or...be like the Pharisee of old and ride your pride to judgment!
    Cool story.

    So he was "blamess" to YHWH when he was killing followers of Yahshua/Jesus? or was he blameless to the Pharisees when he was killing followers of Yahshua/Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    Philippians 3:5
    New International Version
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    English Standard Version
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;

    Berean Study Bible
    circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

    Berean Literal Bible
    circumcision on the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin; a Hebrew of Hebrews; according to the Law, a Pharisee;

    New American Standard Bible
    circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

    in regard to the law, a Pharisee;

    this meant he honored the tradtion of the elders...


    Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."



    John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
    Hiz Temp acct.

  9. #50589
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Lol. NO ONE COULD BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW. Thats the point, He was condemning their WORKS BASED GOSPEL.(Not to mention Circumcision was given LONG before the law!!

    Baptismal regeneration is JUST AS EVIL AS WHAT THEY WERE TEACHING.


    Can;t you speak English dude? Your Hebrew stuff is really getting on my nerves. Do you not realise how offensive that is??
    It makes him more righteous.......it helps with the working for law abiding lottery salvation

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    Cool story.

    So he was "blamess" to YHWH when he was killing followers of Yahshua/Jesus? or was he blameless to the Pharisees when he was killing followers of Yahshua/Jesus?





    John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
    SWALLOW your camel while choking on a gnat...pay attention to the inspired word of God....and the last 11 words..

    as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    SWALLOW your camel while choking on a gnat...pay attention to the inspired word of God....and the last 11 words..

    as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless
    you are too much......
    Hiz Temp acct.

  12. #50592
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    SWALLOW your camel while choking on a gnat...pay attention to the inspired word of God....and the last 11 words..

    as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless
    Pay attention to the words in bold just before the camel and gnat reference you cite

    Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24“You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!-Matthew 23:23-24

    The Pharisees did not keep the law. So how can people say that if you DO keep the law you are being a self righteous Pharisee? Pharisees did not keep the law.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    who place such emphasis upon works for, works to keep, or works to maintain salvation (all three false) fail to acknowledge that by belieiving into Jesus by faith = the works of the Heavenly Father
    Works don't maintain salvation. They show you have it.

    My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.-John 15:8

    Notice how he said 'much' fruit. Not one piece of fruit sometime back in 1985.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    A man may claim to have faith....without the proof in the pudding perse his claim is no different than the fallen angels which believe that God is real......this in no way, shape or form = a works based salvation
    Except when someone else says it. Then it's a works gospel.



    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    I will remind you...creation speaks volumes concerning fruit being produced and the complete gambit of production.....some little, some much, some haphazardly and even an apple tree is an apple tree from the moment it sprouts skme 2 to 4 years before it produces 1 piece of fruit (work) and may go 30 years without production after the initial apple......
    And I will remind you that Jesus said branches in him produce much fruit.

    "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit"-John 15:5

    And will produce more and more because he prunes the fruit bearing branch back.

    "every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit."-John 15:2


    To rely on something you did one time back in 1985 as proof you have a genuine confession of faith is not Biblical. Jesus said his disciples GROW in fruit bearing. The proof in the pudding, as you say, is in the growing up.
    Last edited by Ralph-; 5 Days Ago at 06:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Psalm 1:1-3

    How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,

    Nor stand in the path of sinners,
    Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
    2But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
    And in His law he meditates day and night.
    3He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
    Which yields its fruit in its season
    And its leaf does not wither


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Jeremiah 17:7-8

    Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD

    And whose trust is the LORD.
    8“For he will be like a tree planted by the water,
    That extends its roots by a stream
    And will not fear when the heat comes;
    But its leaves will be green,
    And it will not be anxious in a year of drought
    Nor cease to yield fruit.


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Does not Matt 25 indicate there is some role for the corporal works of mercy in determining whether we are in the end saved or not. I agree that faith is the beginning of salvation but if you do not work you will not continue to be saved.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    No, he taught justification by faith 'apart from works'.
    Amen!

    James taught salvation is not by 'faith alone'.
    Salvation is not by and empty profession of faith that demonstrates by the fact it remains alone - "barren of works" that it's a dead faith and not living faith.

    In context you can see these are two different arguments. But the church has melded them into one doctrine.........one enormously contradictory doctrine.
    In harmonizing these scriptures (Romans 4:2-3; James 2:24), we should observe what both James and Paul do not say, as compared to exactly what they do say. Notice that James does not say that good works can save a person, nor does he say that justification results from some kind of mixture of faith and works--like 50% faith and 50% works. What he does say is that faith without works is dead. And he does indicate that good works are associated with authentic faith.

    Notice that Paul does not say that any kind of faith saves a person, nor does he say that saving faith doesn't result in good works. What he does say is that a person is justified by faith and not by works. And he does indicate that works are not the basis of salvation. So we can see that the writings of James and Paul are not on a collision course.

    Works-salvationists fail to understand that James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

    The 'faith alone' argument is James' point not Paul's and means what it says he says it means. 'Apart from works' is Paul's argument and is addressing a different point about salvation. In context, 'faith alone' and 'apart from works' are not one and the same argument. You have to be careful to use 'faith alone' when talking about James' particular point, and use 'apart from works' when talking about the different point that Paul is making so we'll know which point about works and salvation your're addressing.
    Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

    *Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

    It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is "never alone" (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamah View Post
    James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”
    What kind of belief is "this?" Empty profession of belief. In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims -- *key word* he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Metternich View Post
    Does not Matt 25 indicate there is some role for the corporal works of mercy in determining whether we are in the end saved or not. I agree that faith is the beginning of salvation but if you do not work you will not continue to be saved.
    Think about what you said, Youy said you agree, faith is the BEGINNING of salvation. But if we do not work, we will lose it.

    That is a salvation by works, it is saying God gave you a downpayment (salvation) for all the work that you are about to do. If you live up to your part (works) Then you get to keep your wage/reward of eternal life. If you do not. God will take his payment back.

    that is works 101.

    In fact paul has a name for it, when he asked a question and called out that name for people who believe we are first saved by the spirit. But maintain (perfect) that salvation by the flesh (works) In galations.

    Be careful my friend.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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