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Thread: Not By Works

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Think about what you said, Youy said you agree, faith is the BEGINNING of salvation. But if we do not work, we will lose it.

    That is a salvation by works, it is saying God gave you a downpayment (salvation) for all the work that you are about to do. If you live up to your part (works) Then you get to keep your wage/reward of eternal life. If you do not. God will take his payment back.
    that is works 101.
    I call that one, "type 2 works salvation." From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    No, actually it is true......Paul was clear...Outwardly as a Pharisee and concerning the law he was beyond reproach....can't you workers for get your facts straight? Obviously not!!
    Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

    Phil. 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews;as touching the law, a Pharisee;
    6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the (Pharisees) law, blameless.

    Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    Rom. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
    8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
    9
    But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

    Jer. 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

    Really Decon?

    You really still preach to the world, after all Jesus and Paul and the Prophets have said about the murderers of the Prophets and Jesus and Stephen, that they were following God's Laws "Blameless"?

    You are really willing to call all these people liars just to defend your religious franchise and their traditions? You are sticking to your preaching even after the Bible clearly shows it to be nothing but lies.

    You call people all manner of names and accuse them of all manner of wickedness for simply following and believing the Word's of the Bible. I can understand being deceived, it happens to everybody at some point. But what does it say when a person knows they are preaching lies, and still preach them?


    Fascinating to be sure.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    If one believes a false gospel with no power to save what can a man rightfully and biblically conclude?

    And

    If one is not saved by faith into the correct message....by default one is not Christian.....

    ☆Disclaimer☆ Not saying or implying anyone is not saved or a Christian....just stating the FACTS.....MANY will claim him, boast of works in his name as a right to enter and find out tragically that their gospel and belief were false. ..albeit too late!
    Finally you say something I can agree with. As Jesus warns.

    Matt. 24;4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    It is a deceit to preach that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by following God's Laws. Teaching lies about God's Word is really, really bad. But Jesus did warn about "Many" who would do just that.

    It's not too late to reconsider your preaching Decon. We have all been corrected, the humility, though uncomfortable, is very good to squish man's pride. It is my hope that no one is tricked into teaching lies about God. I hope you will see, and stop preaching the falsehood that the Pharisees were trying to please God by obeying Him.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Acts 16
    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    Salvation is all about believing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    Faith alone in the blood sacrifice of Jesus. What would you add? Did you make that phrase up? It's a new one to me.
    I think you have me confused with someone else. I have never used or even heard of the phrase, "faith alone in the blood of Jesus".

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    James says that without works there is no faith.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Metternich View Post
    James says that without works there is no faith.
    Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No works at all demonstrates there is no root.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Metternich View Post
    Does not Matt 25 indicate there is some role for the corporal works of mercy in determining whether we are in the end saved or not.
    Yes. Having mercy on others shows you have received God's mercy in salvation. The fruit of mercy is evidence that you have the Spirit of God in you.

    That passage of scripture, Matthew 25, shows us that it is by our works that Jesus will judge us as having the Spirit in us in salvation or not. He already knows, but we can see he is in fact going to use our lives as the evidence for his judgments for and against the nations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metternich View Post
    I agree that faith is the beginning of salvation but if you do not work you will not continue to be saved.
    And that's where the church divides on this issue. One side says if you stop working and do not endure to the end you were never saved to begin with. The other side says if you stop working and do not endure to the end you either were never saved to begin with, or you stopped believing. But which ever you think is true, the important fact is, both sides agree that the person who does not endure to the end will not be saved in the end-Hebrews 6:7-8.

    There's actually a new third belief rising up in the church but we are prohibited from discussing that doctrine.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    [/B][/COLOR]I call that one, "type 2 works salvation." From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.
    Yes, but which in no way negates the necessity to have a life that shows you were growing up into the works of the Spirit when Christ returns. Paul points out to the Galatians that this freedom from having to earn your salvation is not a ticket to now indulge sin

    "do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."-Galatians 5:13-14

    Salvation by grace, not by works, gives us the freedom to now fulfill God's law, not cast it away in some kind of 'get out jail free to now commit murder and mayhem' way. But that is what many in the church think it is.
    Last edited by Ralph-; 5 Days Ago at 11:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    What is being argued is works don't HAVE to follow salvation. It is being said that you do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back, or else that's a works gospel. But I'm correcting that and saying you have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back, or else you're not saved to begin with. The absence of works is the sign that you do not believe and are not saved.
    True. Those who are Truly Saved will have many good works. How could they not, if LOVE lives inside of them? If Love (Jesus) lives inside of a person, they will be so full of Love for others that they will be feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, giving to charities, helping people any chance they get.
    Those who do those things to GET SAVED, or REMAIN SAVED are in error. But those who do those things (works) Because they Love One Another, have Jesus living inside of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    Let's be clear. Works have nothing to do with earning salvation. But they have everything to do with showing you have salvation.
    Amen. This is something that i have been saying over and over again, to a generation that has ears but can't hear. Works has nothing to do with a person Getting Saved. But once a person IS SAVED by Grace and recieve the free Gift, they will be full of good works (NOT to get or remain Saved, but because they ARE SAVED)

    The problem is we live in the last days, among the last day generation. Which believe that believing in Jesus is enough (FAITH ONLY) and no works are needed or condoned. These people put down, belittle, or mock anyone who has many good works, saying to them "You are working for your Salvation" But the reason these people do not understand is because LOVE does not live in them, even though they claim with their mouths that Jesus does live in them. These claim to be Christian because they have given Jesus mouth service by accepting Him as their Savior and Lord, but altogether have no fruits that prove that He actually resides in them. You will know them by their fruits, or lack of them. These altogether do not, nor can understand Scriptures which teach things like:

    Tit_3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


    Tit_3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.


    These false Christians (Those who believe in Jesus but are devoid of any good works) will mock and condemn any person who maintains good works exactly as Scriptures teaches True Christians to do. These same people who profess to be Christians will mock, belittle, make fun of, or condemn anyone who teaches you should have many good works. These are goats and not sheep. The goats in the parable all believe Jesus is Lord, even calling Him "Lord" but even though they believe Jesus is Lord, they are devoid of any good works, and these will be rejected by Jesus Christ. Because even though they claim with their mouths they believe in Jesus, Jesus does not live inside of them, if He did, they would have evidence of His presence in them, but the Love they will have One for another, the compassion they will have to help people, the overflowing of good works done by that person because LOVE lives inside of them.

    But Lo, This generation of false Christians are of the "Faith ONLY" Tribe. Saying, Teaching, and Believing that Faith ONLY is enough. Demons believe in Jesus, and even obey Him, they are not Saved either. Believing in Jesus gets your name written in the Book of Life. Letting Him live in you, which changes your life for ever, keeps your name from being blotted out of the Book of Life. Letting Him live in you, you will not be able to help having many good works, because Love lives inside of you.

    ^i^

    ††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    Yes, but which in no way negates the necessity to have a life that shows you were growing up into the works of the Spirit when Christ returns. Paul points out to the Galatians that this freedom from having to earn your salvation is not a ticket to now indulge sin

    "do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."-Galatians 5:13-14

    Salvation by grace, not by works, gives us the freedom to now fulfill God's law, not cast it away in some kind of 'get out jail free to now commit murder and mayhem' way. But that is what many in the church think it is.
    “Get out of jail free card to now commit murder and mayhem” sounds extreme. I’m yet to hear someone who is truly born of God proclaim that and I certainly don’t teach that grace is a license to sin.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Metternich View Post
    James says that without works there is no faith.
    That is because they do not measure up to love,for it is our love that saves us,which we can love perfectly by the Spirit,and the reason the world cannot attain unto salvation for they do not love perfectly being motivated by selfishness,arrogance,and self exaltation,which the last generation will devour the poor from off the earth,and the needy from among men,and the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy.

    Charity is greater than faith.

    Faith works by love.

    Love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    Some people lack in love for they love money and material things for their lusts,and how much do we see that in the world as they believe God blesses that way,but Paul said withdraw yourselves from them.

    And it is a salvation issue for James said if a man does not have works,which is charity,love in action,can faith save him,then faith without works is dead.

    Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    They say it is to show other people their faith,but it is to have charity,works of love,to have faith active in their life.

    Paul said charity does not think an evil thought,and does not sin by the Spirit.

    And the Lord knows them that are His having this seal,for this is what seals the saints,that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

    But they still do not understand saying they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,and some say obedience to Christ does not have anything to do with salvation,but the Bible says to obey is better than sacrifice,and bring every thought to the obedience of Christ.

    These people interpret according to the flesh,which the Bible says they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,and think they are alright despite their sins,and going by their wants.

    How can people that say they are led of the Spirit,and are spiritual,say they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,and believe God blesses with money and material things.

    And then add that they believe God chose who would be saved,and not saved,in the beginning without their choice,but God said He wants all people to repent,come to the knowledge of the truth,and be saved,and the Spirit and bride say,anybody can have that salvation,and Jesus lights every person that is born in to this world so everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved,and the darkness does not comprehend it.

    God wants all to be saved,and they say not so.

    James says faith without works is dead,and they say it is not true,although Paul said the same thing for if a person lacks as James says they are nothing,and they have erred from the faith,but they do not want to hear that from Paul who is saying the same thing as James,and they do not know when Paul is speaking according to the flesh,and the Spirit,but want to drag when he speaks according to the flesh throughout their Christian confession.

    Paul says the saints are sealed that depart from iniquity by the Spirit,but they do not want to hear that by saying they cannot abstain from sin although the power is there by the Spirit.

    They want to believe they were chosen in the beginning,and cannot ever fall,but the Bible says many are called,but few are chosen.

    No person can say Jesus is Lord,but by the Holy Ghost,and no person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them,but the ones they argue with saying they are deceived confess Jesus as Lord and Savior,and the Son of the living God,so why is God working in their life if they have not been chosen,for they cannot confess those things unless they have been called,and the Spirit is working in their life.Why is God calling them if they were not chosen in the beginning.

    Because we have a choice in our salvation,and many are called but few are chosen,and the ones not chosen could not understand that they have to depart from sin,and help people with their needs of possible,and help them anyway they can.

    God gets the glory for us being saved,for when He calls a person He will work in their life to guide them to the truth,but they have to walk through the door of truth,and that is to abstain from sin by the Spirit,which is why we repent of our sins,and God chose us we did not choose Him for we would not get to the door of truth unless God intervened in our life,but not everyone walks through the door of truth,which is why few are chosen.

    A person is justified by works,and not faith alone,for we are justified by love.Lack works,lack love,lack faith,and we see the lack of love among them in the world,as they enjoy sin,and money,so what can they say.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    [/B][/COLOR]I call that one, "type 2 works salvation."
    Thankfully there's a cure for that Type 2 virus. Faith in Christ alone....I mean....apart from works.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    Thankfully there's a cure for that Type 2 virus. Faith in Christ alone....I mean....apart from works.
    Salvation is through faith in Christ (rightly understood alone) — “apart from the merit of works” yet authentic faith in Christ does not remain alone — “apart from the presence of works.”
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    “Get out of jail free card to now commit murder and mayhem” sounds extreme. I’m yet to hear someone who is truly born of God proclaim that and I certainly don’t teach that grace is a license to sin.
    I was being extreme to make my point.

    This teaching has been represented right here in this thread. It's becoming a very common belief in the church. And most Christians seem unawares that it's creeping in. But that is how it comes into the church

    "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."-Jude 1:4

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    I was being extreme to make my point.

    This teaching has been represented right here in this thread. It's becoming a very common belief in the church. And most Christians seem unawares that it's creeping in. But that is how it comes into the church

    "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."-Jude 1:4
    As we continue to read a description of such people from verses 4-19 in Jude, including they are “void of the Spirit” we see that such people are not born of God.
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    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Hi Ralph, I'm not trying to start another big argument, I just want to ask something. I notice you use the term "when Jesus comes back". You say it a lot. He is coming back, I'm not denying that.

    But is there a difference in your opinion, between what happens to believers who are alive when Jesus comes back and what happens to believers who die before his return?
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Originally Posted by Gracie_14
    oh for goodness sake, we all sin no matter how hard we try not to.


    Scriptures please?

    1Co_10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    So then God does not allow us to be tempted above that which we are able to handle.
    So then God allows a path out of every temptation that comes upon us.
    Are you suggesting it is impossible to handle a particular temptation and that we will sin?

    There are many versus that plainly and clearly teach to "Stop sinning" are you saying it is not possible to do that which Scriptures instructs us to do?

    Awake to Righteousness and Sin not.
    Go and Sin no more.
    Shall we continue to sin? God forbid.
    Those who sin are of the devil.
    If you abide in Christ you do not sin.
    Make sure to maintain good works.
    Good Tree does not produce any bad fruits

    Are but a few verses out of many that teach against sinning.

    Tell me, and answer True. What sin do you do that you can't cease from?

    If you can cease from every sin, the question is, WHY are you not ceasing from them?

    What is practiced sin? But a sin that you do over and over again.

    What does Scriptures call those who can't cease from sin? Cursed Children.

    Those who have ceased from sin, have died to this life.

    1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.
    (Woe to this generation indeed, for their will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth on that Day of His Return)

    ^i^

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    Senior Member Ralph-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    As we continue to read a description of such people from verses 4-19 in Jude, including they are “void of the Spirit” we see that such people are not born of God.
    I know this. I've been bashed and beaten in this thread for saying the person who lives in sin is not born again.

    I've never considered a person who pushes the forbidden doctrine to be saved. At least at first. There is always the chance they are just misguided and a little education will bring them around to the truth of their salvation. It's when they fight being corrected about the forbidden doctrine. That's when I know who I'm dealing with.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    It is just like Ralphie to be waiting of for the Little Orphan Annie secret decoder pen, aka ....am I saved or not..how many works do I need or which sin will sink my ship?

    Ralphie was pretty disappointed when he read the secret message.

    "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine"

    Thankfully, God doesn't keep us guessing or keep it a secret from us.
    Many claim with their mouths that they are Saved, does not make it TRUE. Those who are Truly Saved will have evidence that Jesus is living inside of them, they will full of good works, not to be Saved or remain Saved, but they will be full of good works because they ARE Saved. Woe to this generation who claim with their mouths that they are Saved, and yet they are unfruitful, no works. Many claim and believe they are Saved, but that does not make it so.
    Anyone can freely accept that Jesus Christ is "Lord" but accepting Him to live in you is an entirely different animal.
    You will know who has Jesus in them or NOT, by the Love they have One for Another.
    Many claim to be a Good Tree, but it is their Works that determine if they Truly are or not.
    Woe to this generation of couch sitters, professing that Jesus lives in them, but they feed no hungry, they help no needy, they do not give to anyone, full of dead works even though they profess with their mouths "I am Saved"

    ^i^

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