Not By Works

[Ralph-]

You bought it into the discussion

I have been saying over and over to leave it out of the discussion because it is a distraction to the truth about the necessity to have a living faith or else you are not born again. People keep bringing it up as if it makes it so you can have no changed life and you are still saved. I keep reminding everyone that it doesn't matter. Dead faith can not save. Once saved always saved doesn't make it so dead faith saves. Dead faith means you are not born again. It doesn't matter if you were never born again or lost it. The point is you are not born again.

 

[dcontroversal]

Let's assume on his deathbed or in his bunker he fell on his knees and cried out to God for forgiveness and was truly sorry for what he had done.

What would God say?

Your sins which are many are forgiven....the problem is to quantify and categorize sins into nice neat little boxes....break the least = guilty of the whole.....a little white liar is as guilty the murderer as guilty as the fornicator is as guilty as the adulterer is as guilty as the man who is covetous etc.......the only sin which makes all sin unforgivable is unbelief into the work of Christ....

 

[mj007]

That makes God far too human with their flaws. God is flawless.

We don't know.

We don't know if he had rejected the gospel over and over and over and over again until God gave him over to his unbelief. God does not contend with unbelievers forever. There comes a time when you reject him one time too many.

 

[VCO]

He is Holy. So Holy.
It is about him. His Holiness. His Holiness.

[video=youtube;hQ5J0zppfaI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ5J0zppfaI[/video]

YES, AMEN! So Please post that on my Music Thread: http://christianchat.com/christian-...nd-christian-music-blesses-your-heart-31.html

 

[mj007]

I thought it was those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit? I assume that is your interpretation of it, which is just your interpretation.

Your sins which are many are forgiven....the problem is to quantify and categorize sins into nice neat little boxes....break the least = guilty of the whole.....a little white liar is as guilty the murderer as guilty as the fornicator is as guilty as the adulterer is as guilty as the man who is covetous etc.......the only sin which makes all sin unforgivable is unbelief into the work of Christ....

 

[dcontroversal]

I thought it was those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit? I assume that is your interpretation of it, which is just your interpretation.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to equate the work of Christ to the power of the devil <=---a state of unbelief.. one will not believe cannot be forgiven....

 

[mj007]

Ok can you provide the scriptures that say that, because you are better with scriptures than me.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to equate the work of Christ to the power of the devil <=---a state of unbelief.. one will not believe cannot be forgiven....

 

[mj007]

Ralph, what is your opinion on how people who have dead faith might speak to others, or act in their life? Would you say dead faith is like a soul that has turned to stone?

I have been saying over and over to leave it out of the discussion because it is a distraction to the truth about the necessity to have a living faith or else you are not born again. People keep bringing it up as if it makes it so you can have no changed life and you are still saved. I keep reminding everyone that it doesn't matter. Dead faith can not save. Once saved always saved doesn't make it so dead faith saves. Dead faith means you are not born again. It doesn't matter if you were never born again or lost it. The point is you are not born again.

 

[BillG]

We don't know.

We don't know if he had rejected the gospel over and over and over and over again until God gave him over to his unbelief. God does not contend with unbelievers forever. There comes a time when you reject him one time too many.

And maybe that is the point.
We do not know.

 

[mj007]

We do know that God is infinite. We humans are finite, every process has a tolerance point - that is our flaw.

And maybe that is the point.
We do not know.

 

[BillG]

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to equate the work of Christ to the power of the devil <=---a state of unbelief.. one will not believe cannot be forgiven....

I thought it was a total rejection of Jesus.

I have to bed honest here.
The first time I heard tongues spoken in church (I used to go to an Anglican church but eventually ended up in a Baptist church)
I thought it was evil, I went away saying I would not go back again, I did go back for a few years.

 

[dcontroversal]

Ok can you provide the scriptures that say that, because you are better with scriptures than me.

At the end of the day they did not

a. Believe JESUS was of GOD
b. Did not believe that the work Jesus was did was from God
c. Equated his work to the power of the devil

This equates to unbelief in JESUS and if one will not believe in JESUS, they cannot be forgiven...to me it is all boiled down to that simple truth. If one genuinely believes that JESUS was working through the power of the devil they will not believe he is the Messiah sent from God = a state of denial and unbelief = no ability to be forgiven....that is how I view it

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[Ralph-]

Ralph, what is your opinion on how people who have dead faith might speak to others, or act in their life?

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing"-Galatians 5:19-21

People who are not born again are characterized by these traits. They live in and practice them.

And it does not matter if you used to be born again or never were to begin with. If you are characterized by these traits you are not born again. You have no new life inside of you.

Would you say dead faith is like a soul that has turned to stone?

Yes. The Bible speaks of the unregenerate heart as one of stone.

"I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."-Ezekiel 36:26-27

 

[dcontroversal]

I thought it was a total rejection of Jesus.

I have to bed honest here.
The first time I heard tongues spoken in church (I used to go to an Anglican church but eventually ended up in a Baptist church)
I thought it was evil, I went away saying I would not go back again, I did go back for a few years.

It does boil down to a rejection of JESUS.....If I say Jesus is of the devil and not GOD then I a in a state of unbelief into the work of Christ...and If I will not acknowledge Christ as from God I cannot be forgiven.....NO difference than Thomas Paine who had two witnesses by his death bed to say he went to the ground denying that Jesus was the savior and could save him...he was unforgivable in that state....

 

[BillG]

We do know that God is infinite. We humans are finite, every process has a tolerance point - that is our flaw.

I am gonna sound foolish here and a bit of an idiot.
Been a Christan for 33 years.
It was only about 10 years ago when someone told me that God is not limited by time.

 

[ElAmor]

Same thing with the supposed law keeping Pharisee.....I see he has chimed in again pushing his working for, law keeping drivel.....oblivious to the fact that the key to the tax collectors and whores entering in was based upon BELIEF and not their works.....and on top of that....any who think they keep the law are deceived because no man keeps the law....and no man can earn God's kingdom through works, nor do works top off salvation and finish the deal.............such foolishness.....

Why do you always inject or put the law on the shoulders of those who were not even given the Law? Do you even look at the mirror first before you judge? Or do you even know what your sinful tongue is saying? Can't you keep a tight rein of your tongue(james 1:26)

The Jews received the Law and not the Gentiles. ( romans 9:4-5, ephesians 2:11-12 ) What if the Gentiles through their FAITH do what the Law requires, will you call them a Jew. A believer is given the power to do what the Lord Jesus has been doing ( john 14:12 ) through the HS He gave us. Did Jesus teach that Gentiles should not obey God's Laws?

Salvation is not by the Law but obedience to God is essential to our salvation. We do not save ourselves ( ephesians 2:8-9 ) but we are a part or a member of the body of the SAVIOR who keeps working to this very day and did not just die on the cross but resurrected and is now seated at the right hand of God the Father doing their WORKS.

Are you a part of that body who worships and serves the Lord?

New International Version 1984 Romans 13:11-14 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Ephesians 5:14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: “wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

Revelation 3:2-3 wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am gonna sound foolish here and a bit of an idiot.
Been a Christan for 33 years.
It was only about 10 years ago when someone told me that God is not limited by time.

I always say he is not limited by time, but rather is the God of TIMING.....everything happens on his time frame.......you know if you do the math of a 1000 years being compared to a watch in the night a man who live to be 50 will have his life pass before God in 9 minutes and obviously 18 minutes for 100 years...if God was subject unto time...No wonder he writes of us being a vapor that appears for a little tie and then vanishes away....just think....6000 years of human history = 18 hours worth of watches in the night.......when we view things form God's standpoint of time...it opens up the reality of many prophetic events concerning time.....

 

[mj007]

Well I still think this is an interpretation. Yes it makes sense, although to me, it is a choice of focus to make it just that one thing. To many Christians, Jesus is someone to be protected, his identity, and they would never forgive someone who rejects Jesus, or makes a mockery of Jesus. As to whether it is about this from God's perspective, I'm not sure, because that makes it a little narrow minded, as someone who doesn't forgive, is often narrow minded.

To blaspheme against the spirit has many interpretations, not just the one that sounds good to Christians where God hates what they hate. Because this very often happens in peoples minds, they interpret God according to themselves.

It does boil down to a rejection of JESUS.....If I say Jesus is of the devil and not GOD then I a in a state of unbelief into the work of Christ...and If I will not acknowledge Christ as from God I cannot be forgiven.....NO difference than Thomas Paine who had two witnesses by his death bed to say he went to the ground denying that Jesus was the savior and could save him...he was unforgivable in that state....

 

[Ralph-]

That makes God far too human with their flaws. God is flawless.

God really does give up on people who are persistent in rejecting him:


"the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."-2 Thessalonians 2:9-11


"Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions"-Romans 1:24-26



"And the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart"-Exodus 9:12

"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."-Romans 9:18

 

[mj007]

So if someone has a really bad day after splitting up with his partner of 30 years or so, gets mad drunk, walks into a church and declares 'Jesus is the devil everyone, he ruined my life, he will ruin yours', you are saying that God doesn't have the empathy to understand that he was in a state of unbelief triggered by circumstances at which he lost control and lost himself?

The truth is, people struggle with empathy, and would easily condemn him to hell. But God wouldn't. But according to what you say, he would, like he is over-protective and unforgiving when it comes to people losing their mind and offending him, as if he is easily offended, like a person can be.

Or?

It does boil down to a rejection of JESUS.....If I say Jesus is of the devil and not GOD then I a in a state of unbelief into the work of Christ...and If I will not acknowledge Christ as from God I cannot be forgiven.....NO difference than Thomas Paine who had two witnesses by his death bed to say he went to the ground denying that Jesus was the savior and could save him...he was unforgivable in that state....