Not By Works

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R

Ralph-

Guest
So if Jesus had come back on that day/time period you messed up then you would have
not been saved?
No.

Unless your mess up is the result of you having walked away from faith in Christ before that.

And I'm sure you're going to say that's not possible, right? I'm okay with that. As long as you know that it is necessary to be a believer on the day Christ returns. That requirement doesn't change whether you believe that you cannot stop believing or if you believe you can stop believing. That's why I say it's a useless distraction to this discussion. It doesn't change the fact that you have to be a believer when Jesus comes back (growing up into the works you were saved to do) to be saved when he comes back.
 
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U

UnderGrace

Guest
Nope, the person with dead faith can be born again.

If you would study James you would understand that he is not talking about saving faith, he is talking about a faith that is not being used, inoperative.


Then you are simply saying the person with dead faith was never born again. I'm okay with that because the point is, the person with dead faith is not born again and so will not be saved when Jesus comes back. Whether they were never born again to begin with or lost their salvation doesn't change that truth. The point is they are not born again. Don't let the once saved always saved contention distract you and seduce you away from that truth.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14, “My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.”[/FONT]
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Well Ralphie I am very sorry you believe this way.:(

Jesus has made many promises to us and I trust His word,

He has assured me of my salvation because of His work on the cross on my behalf, and it is that actual assurance, and knowledge of His unconditional love that spurs me on to serve Him even more.



No.

Unless your mess up is the result of you having walked away from faith in Christ before that.

And I'm sure you're going to say that's not possible, right? I'm okay with that. As long as you know that it is necessary to be a believer on the day Christ returns. That requirement doesn't change whether you believe that you cannot stop believing or if you believe you can stop believing. That's why I say it's a useless distraction to this discussion. It doesn't change the fact that you have to be a believer when Jesus comes back (growing up into the works you were saved to do) to be saved when he comes back.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Nope, the person with dead faith can be born again.
I'm purposely trying not to complicate this argument, but I actually agree with this. I believe the blood of Christ can be trampled on by born again people. They are rejecting faith in Christ.

For now, let's just focus on the fact that those with unchanged lives are not born again. Paul, James, and Jesus said so. Not me.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”[/FONT]
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Well Ralphie I am very sorry you believe this way.:(

Jesus has made many promises to us and I trust His word,

He has assured me of my salvation because of His work on the cross on my behalf, and it is that actual assurance, and knowledge of His unconditional love that spurs me on to serve Him even more.
You're not getting it. If you don't have a changed life YOU DON'T HAVE THESE PROMISES FOR THEM TO EVEN MATTER. Get it?

Stop making this about once saved always saved. If you don't have works you are not even born again for that argument to even matter.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
Then you are simply saying the person with dead faith was never born again. I'm okay with that because the point is, the person with dead faith is not born again and so will not be saved when Jesus comes back. Whether they were never born again to begin with or lost their salvation doesn't change that truth. The point is they are not born again. Don't let the once saved always saved contention distract you and seduce you away from that truth.
Then what sin must one commit to "lose salvation" as you declare?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Then what sin must one commit to "lose salvation" as you declare?
Unbelief.

Whatever you believe about this does not change the fact that the person without the changed nature is not born again. Either way---you can lose it, or you can't lose it-----an unchanged life shows you are not born again and will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back.


I'll be back.
 
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U

UnderGrace

Guest
The changed life is an internal spiritual reality

The changed life is everlasting, not temporal, declared by God in eternity not in our day to day existence

The changed life is learning to externalize what is internal, which not everyone does the same.

I suggest you spend time ministering to people on skid row, and watch the battles of the flesh they face minute to minute, hour by hour. something we in our middle class lens could never understand and when they succumb you will know that they have not lost their salvation but they have given into the temptations that have had a tremendous stronghold on them.

Sometimes they manage to walk a worthy walk in Him and sometimes they do not.




You're not getting it. If you don't have a changed life YOU DON'T HAVE THESE PROMISES FOR THEM TO EVEN MATTER. Get it?

Stop making this about once saved always saved. If you don't have works you are not even born again for that argument to even matter.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
Unbelief.

Whatever you believe about this does not change the fact that the person without the changed nature is not born again. Either way---you can lose it, or you can't lose it-----an unchanged life shows you are not born again and will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back.


I'll be back.
Very well,I'll have this question waiting on you...
How can a saved believer commit unbelief?
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,275
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Salvation - repentance, faith, works - founded on purity

Lose any part of the three and ones salvation goes.

Repentance - to abide in wilfull rebellion and sin. Heb 10:26-27
faith - to cease to trust God saves you and the cross forgives you. Hebrews 11:6
works - cease to exercise love flowing through ones life. James 2:26

Repentance
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Heb 10:26-27
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? ......you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Faith
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Heb 11:6
We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. Heb 3:14

Works
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead James 2:26
Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 1 Peter 3:9

Eternity is pure, without sin, holy, without blemish. What we call blemish and what God calls
blemish is different. We pick at the smallest details, the right way to be polite or show someone
we are together, or not be condemning, or not appreciating enough, or upsetting someone by
being too firm and not recognise our sinful allegiance to wealth, power, sexual desire, selfish
indulgences, holidays we just cannot go without, recognition of our achievements, what we
deserve.

We are happy to be violent within, a raging inferno, lusting after any opportunity that comes along,
wanting that bigger house, car, position, yet outside we want to be seen as being religious, following
Jesus, getting close to others and helping them, in their poor state of spiritual distress.

Little wonder purity is rejected or intimacy and closeness, it would result in a explosion with many injuries.

But this is what Jesus saw in the pharisees. He saw much that was good, but without taming the heart
and being gentle within, there is no real hope of showing true love without.
I asked awhile back on this thread if there is anyone here who believes that
"it is indeed 'by works' (their works more specifically) that they are saved"?

I didn't see that anyone responded to my question - and I did not think that anyone here actually believed that. I guess I was wrong! See the above post - it seems to me this is a clear teaching that works is one of the three things required to be saved.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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How can you contradict yourself like this and not see it?

You baffle me :(
Yep...a walking talking contradiction.....he states works don't save or justify yet your not saved until JESUS sees your works at the end....a total contradiction.......!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,275
1,410
113
Very well,I'll have this question waiting on you...
How can a saved believer commit unbelief?

I am not Ralph (and have no intentions of trying to be him!!!! :)

But I will take a shot at answering your question: that is:
How can a saved believer commit unbelief?

First of all: I am a saved believer and have no doubt about that! I am leaning on Jesus and believing in Him for my salvation: He is my only hope and my only chance. If I would have to depend on my own righteousness and works, I would be toast! (for eternity! :p )

Next: I know that in me lies the moral and spiritual capability to reject Jesus Christ. Being made in the image of Christ, I am a creature of free choice. God loves me and will woo and hold me ongoingly with His love, but He will not force me to believe in Him, nor will he take away my free will.

Finally: I am completely secure in Christ as I am believing in Him. And my every intention is to keep trusting him because without Him is misery, fear, and death. In him is life, peace, joy, and power. I have no fear of death or of falling from Christ. I love my Redeemer, my Saviour, and my Lord!

So, how could a saved believer commit the sin of unbelief? by ceasing to believe

 
J

joefizz

Guest
I am not Ralph (and have no intentions of trying to be him!!!! :)

But I will take a shot at answering your question: that is:
How can a saved believer commit unbelief?

First of all: I am a saved believer and have no doubt about that! I am leaning on Jesus and believing in Him for my salvation: He is my only hope and my only chance. If I would have to depend on my own righteousness and works, I would be toast! (for eternity! :p )

Next: I know that in me lies the moral and spiritual capability to reject Jesus Christ. Being made in the image of Christ, I am a creature of free choice. God loves me and will woo and hold me ongoingly with His love, but He will not force me to believe in Him, nor will he take away my free will.

Finally: I am completely secure in Christ as I am believing in Him. And my every intention is to keep trusting him because without Him is misery, fear, and death. In him is life, peace, joy, and power. I have no fear of death or of falling from Christ. I love my Redeemer, my Saviour, and my Lord!

So, how could a saved believer commit the sin of unbelief? by ceasing to believe

Who has "attempted" or would "attempt" such a "foolish" thing?
 
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J

joefizz

Guest
I am not Ralph (and have no intentions of trying to be him!!!! :)

But I will take a shot at answering your question: that is:
How can a saved believer commit unbelief?

First of all: I am a saved believer and have no doubt about that! I am leaning on Jesus and believing in Him for my salvation: He is my only hope and my only chance. If I would have to depend on my own righteousness and works, I would be toast! (for eternity! :p )

Next: I know that in me lies the moral and spiritual capability to reject Jesus Christ. Being made in the image of Christ, I am a creature of free choice. God loves me and will woo and hold me ongoingly with His love, but He will not force me to believe in Him, nor will he take away my free will.

Finally: I am completely secure in Christ as I am believing in Him. And my every intention is to keep trusting him because without Him is misery, fear, and death. In him is life, peace, joy, and power. I have no fear of death or of falling from Christ. I love my Redeemer, my Saviour, and my Lord!

So, how could a saved believer commit the sin of unbelief? by ceasing to believe

Gave a like because you gave an answer,not because I necessarily agree with what you said but because well it was "well constructed" and "thought out".
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
I am not Ralph (and have no intentions of trying to be him!!!! :)

But I will take a shot at answering your question: that is:
How can a saved believer commit unbelief?

First of all: I am a saved believer and have no doubt about that! I am leaning on Jesus and believing in Him for my salvation: He is my only hope and my only chance. If I would have to depend on my own righteousness and works, I would be toast! (for eternity! :p )

Next: I know that in me lies the moral and spiritual capability to reject Jesus Christ. Being made in the image of Christ, I am a creature of free choice. God loves me and will woo and hold me ongoingly with His love, but He will not force me to believe in Him, nor will he take away my free will.

Finally: I am completely secure in Christ as I am believing in Him. And my every intention is to keep trusting him because without Him is misery, fear, and death. In him is life, peace, joy, and power. I have no fear of death or of falling from Christ. I love my Redeemer, my Saviour, and my Lord!

So, how could a saved believer commit the sin of unbelief? by ceasing to believe

a saved believer cannot actually cease to believe

they are a new creature....

born again


those who believe of God and even for a time retain knowledge of Him
and then fall away

never believed IN Him

and He never placed the new heart and spirit in them
or they surely would have continued in faith

______________
Romans 1:28-29

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

________
1 john

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


______________


Hebrews 6
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

___________

there are those who hear the call

but are not chosen

they were not born again or they no doubt would have continued in faith

__________

proof of tasting the Holy spirit but not being born again BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF



7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ



__________

once you are born again
His incorruptible seed remains in you....

1 peter
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


________

1 peter

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Actually for me it isn't like that at all. For me it's not confusing in the least. The Bible is really very clear as a whole about the choice Jesus created for us to make. And that we are all created with the ability to make this choice He created. The preaching that we have nothing to do with our choices after Jesus forgives us our sins is certainly not supported by God's Word.

The Gospel of Christ teaches about a religion that preaches "peace, peace, when there is no peace. Jesus and His Apostles speak a lot about deception, being deceived by people who claim to be Christians, and that Come in God's Name.

If I am not worried about deception, then I'm not going to "work" to understand why they spent so much time warning about it. It's a mistake not to "Take Heed" we are not deceived.

Generally speaking, most people never think they are deceived, it's always the other guy. That is the definition of deceived is it not? A person who is truly deceived, is the one most convinced he is not.

The Mainstream Religion of Christ's time actually condemned to death the most perfect human who ever lived, believing they were serving God in the process. People strap bombs on their children in some places of the world in service to their religion. This religious deception that Jesus warned about is no laughing matter and is nothing to mess around with.

Being deceived is not the real problem, it is staying in this condition that is the problem. We have all been deceived by satan at one point or another, and most people still are, the Bible says so. The narrow path has few people according to Jesus.

My Faith is in God/Jesus and the Instructions He created for me. I will "cling" to Him and His Word's as He instructed. In doing this He has promised to give me His "Spirit of Truth" that the world can not see. Why can't people of the World see? Because of their choice NOT to keep His Sayings.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

This is the only way to be safe from deception.


I also know from study that there will also be a "Serpent" who will "work" to turn me away from God/Jesus instructions and work to convince me to look at things through my eyes, my understanding. They will be "Many" and come in "sheep's clothing", disguised as an "apostle of Christ". They will "come in His Name" they will preach that He is truly the Christ, and Jesus said they will deceive many.

Now here I am witnessing a HUGE group of religious factions that teach AGAINST the instructions of God/Jesus all in His name. The greatest purveyor of disobedience to God on the planet is Mainstream Christianity. Sure, they use parts of the Word of God to justify their transgressions, just like the Serpent did to Eve. But the reality of the truth is that this great religion teaches all those who follow it to discard God's Instructions the exact same way the Serpent did to Eve.

But the Bottom line is disobedience to the Commandments of God, and adherence to ancient religious "tradition and doctrines of man". And the people who partake in these religions that make up Mainstream Christianity defend their traditions with a zeal like Paul defended the Pharisees religion.

It is truly a scary and amazing to witness. as Jeremiah prophesies.

Jer. 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;

31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Is. 40:7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Glory be to the Great God of Abraham who became a man to show us the path, and gave His life to give us another chance to walk it.
2Co 3:2 You are our letter, written in our hearts and known and read by everyone.


2Co 3:3 You are demonstrating that you are the Messiah's letter, produced by our service, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2 Corinthians 3:4 Such is the confidence that we have in God through the Messiah.


2Co 3:5 By ourselves we are not qualified to claim that anything comes from us. Rather, our credentials come from God,


2Co 3:6 who has also qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, which is not written but spiritual, because the written text brings death, but the Spirit gives life.


2Co 3:7 Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (because the glory was fading away from it),


2Co 3:8 will not the Spirit's ministry have even more glory?

Do you understand these scriptures?






 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Yep...a walking talking contradiction.....he states works don't save or justify yet your not saved until JESUS sees your works at the end....a total contradiction.......!
Nope. Not what I said. But I believe that you heard it that way. You are in the delusion that controls the church.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,969
4,586
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And so, do we have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back or not? Yes, or no?

NO, you phrased it all wrong, once again.

HE SAID:


John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


GOD said HE had the HOLY SPIRIT place HIS Love in our hearts, and it is MANIFESTED by our willingness to OBEY; IT IS A GIVEN. True Believers WILL WANT TO OBEY as an ACT OF LOVE, and Counterfeit Christians do not want to OBEY, and may even like you just say "I have to obey". THERE IS NO
"have works to be saved when Jesus comes back or not?"


Our New Nature of our Born Again Human Spirit will WANT to OBEY HIM out of LOVE for HIM.