Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
How many works?
Let's say at Christmas time I give one dollar to the Salvation Army, and the next year I give two dollars, and the year after that - three. Is that enough of a progression to prove I'm a Christian - or must I become a missionary in Africa to satisfy?
(Third time I've asked this - gonna ignore it again, Ralph?)
Definitions of Christian Bigotry:
Bigots Fear Change:
Christian Bigots hate change and see it as an attack on their beliefs. Since their Bible is inerrant and their God is unchanging, new ideas are dangerous and subversive to their perfect theology. Perfection cannot be improved upon, so any variation or contradiction is perceived as absurd. Bigots hate discovery, creativity is often prohibited, and new ideas are threatening to their way of life.
Bigots Are Often (But Not Always) Privileged:
Change is hard to accept when things are working in your favor. As the common expression goes: “Why change a good thing?” Any theology, idea or sermon that challenges people to sacrifice or reach beyond their comfort zones isn’t easily accepted.
Bigots defend their position so passionately because the greatest beneficiaries of their worldview are themselves. But when people are persecuted, abandoned, ignored or powerless, their perspective changes and becomes open to different paradigms. These new paradigms are invisible and seem illogical to those that live in comfort and authority.
Bigots Crave Power:
Bigots want control, and they view their faith as a war of attrition. They use battle terminology to describe the gospel and prefer to preach, yell and shout instead of listen, discuss and learn. They declare statements instead of asking questions and refuse to engage in meaningful dialogue.
They prefer political might over spiritual strength, legal enforcement over personal choice, conscription over evangelism, punishment over grace, fear over hope, and control over love. In extreme cases, even violence and aggression is viewed as a necessary means of gaining power.
The Future is Scary:
Christian Bigots believe that the Apocalypse is going to happen sooner rather than later—possibly tomorrow. They assume people are becoming more depraved every passing minute. The Gays, Liberals and Abortionists are ruining the world, and every single negative news event is proof that God is judging the world and that The End is near.
The Past was Beautiful:
Bigots lack humility, and they refuse to admit they were ever wrong. They forget—or refuse to admit—that many aspects of the past were worse than the present. Not only did Christians ruthlessly kill and torture in the name of God, but where was the Church when children were being molested, millions were being persecuted and killed, unfair taxes were bankrupting entire communities, and Christians consistently turned a blind eye to injustice, the poor, and those who were in desperate need of help?
These past sins of Christianity don’t exist for Bigots. Their words, actions and lives are skewed by a misguided sense of self-righteousness and virtue. They hold the moral high ground while everyone else is simply wrong.
Bigots are Exclusive:
Bigots have an Us vs. Them mentality and believe that only those who strictly agree with their beliefs can be true believers, the rest of humanity is being manipulated by Satan. If you question this line of reasoning you’ll quickly be labeled a “heretic” a word that Bigots love to attach to anyone challenging their thinking.
Bigots are Aggressive, Vengeful and Cruel:
Since Bigots self-righteously believe to be correct in all matters, they’re obnoxiously rude, mean and hurtful when communicating with others. Their self-perception as being morally superior creates an attitude of disdain for those they view as sinners, challengers and outsiders.
Bigots Fear Change:
Christian Bigots hate change and see it as an attack on their beliefs. Since their Bible is inerrant and their God is unchanging, new ideas are dangerous and subversive to their perfect theology. Perfection cannot be improved upon, so any variation or contradiction is perceived as absurd. Bigots hate discovery, creativity is often prohibited, and new ideas are threatening to their way of life.
Bigots Are Often (But Not Always) Privileged:
Change is hard to accept when things are working in your favor. As the common expression goes: “Why change a good thing?” Any theology, idea or sermon that challenges people to sacrifice or reach beyond their comfort zones isn’t easily accepted.
Bigots defend their position so passionately because the greatest beneficiaries of their worldview are themselves. But when people are persecuted, abandoned, ignored or powerless, their perspective changes and becomes open to different paradigms. These new paradigms are invisible and seem illogical to those that live in comfort and authority.
Bigots Crave Power:
Bigots want control, and they view their faith as a war of attrition. They use battle terminology to describe the gospel and prefer to preach, yell and shout instead of listen, discuss and learn. They declare statements instead of asking questions and refuse to engage in meaningful dialogue.
They prefer political might over spiritual strength, legal enforcement over personal choice, conscription over evangelism, punishment over grace, fear over hope, and control over love. In extreme cases, even violence and aggression is viewed as a necessary means of gaining power.
The Future is Scary:
Christian Bigots believe that the Apocalypse is going to happen sooner rather than later—possibly tomorrow. They assume people are becoming more depraved every passing minute. The Gays, Liberals and Abortionists are ruining the world, and every single negative news event is proof that God is judging the world and that The End is near.
The Past was Beautiful:
Bigots lack humility, and they refuse to admit they were ever wrong. They forget—or refuse to admit—that many aspects of the past were worse than the present. Not only did Christians ruthlessly kill and torture in the name of God, but where was the Church when children were being molested, millions were being persecuted and killed, unfair taxes were bankrupting entire communities, and Christians consistently turned a blind eye to injustice, the poor, and those who were in desperate need of help?
These past sins of Christianity don’t exist for Bigots. Their words, actions and lives are skewed by a misguided sense of self-righteousness and virtue. They hold the moral high ground while everyone else is simply wrong.
Bigots are Exclusive:
Bigots have an Us vs. Them mentality and believe that only those who strictly agree with their beliefs can be true believers, the rest of humanity is being manipulated by Satan. If you question this line of reasoning you’ll quickly be labeled a “heretic” a word that Bigots love to attach to anyone challenging their thinking.
Bigots are Aggressive, Vengeful and Cruel:
Since Bigots self-righteously believe to be correct in all matters, they’re obnoxiously rude, mean and hurtful when communicating with others. Their self-perception as being morally superior creates an attitude of disdain for those they view as sinners, challengers and outsiders.
You need not only to become a missionary to Africa - but you need to give the dollars and send them to me - just keep adding another dollar every day - send the money to me (leave it behind the Walmart underneath the big oak tree! LOL! - then I will convince Ralph that you are serious!
Then after you spend 10 years on probation and have started at least three churches in Africa: then we can see if you qualify to be a son of God
Then after you spend 10 years on probation and have started at least three churches in Africa: then we can see if you qualify to be a son of God
there is no such "thang" as IF.......
HE that believes IS HAVING........it does not say MIGHT HAVE IF.......your embellishments prove that you do not KNOW........and your drivel fails to acknowledge many truths.....such as....
a. And fruit or work that comes is a process of growth and maturity based upon a regular diet of the word
b. Some may remain stunted their whole life due to a lack of teaching
c. NO ONE produces anything unless in the VINE already by faith and salvation
d. Some, yea, MANY will produce nothing more than wood, hay and stubble
e. SOME will have works of both flavors
f. Some will go to the ground with nothing more than salvation
g. Believers can and do have works that are contrary due to sin
wake up and acknowledge the truth Ralph and while your at it tell your other working for buddies that they are missing the mark before it is too late for the whole lot
HE that believes IS HAVING........it does not say MIGHT HAVE IF.......your embellishments prove that you do not KNOW........and your drivel fails to acknowledge many truths.....such as....
a. And fruit or work that comes is a process of growth and maturity based upon a regular diet of the word
b. Some may remain stunted their whole life due to a lack of teaching
c. NO ONE produces anything unless in the VINE already by faith and salvation
d. Some, yea, MANY will produce nothing more than wood, hay and stubble
e. SOME will have works of both flavors
f. Some will go to the ground with nothing more than salvation
g. Believers can and do have works that are contrary due to sin
wake up and acknowledge the truth Ralph and while your at it tell your other working for buddies that they are missing the mark before it is too late for the whole lot
For those reading....Ralph is not being entirely honest....he preaches a works vanilla café blend false gospel and states clearly that NONE are saved UNTIL JESUS sees their works on the day of judgment which totally denies the fact that one cannot produce a thing unless they have ALREADY BEEN PLACED INTO THE VINE BY THE FAITH AND SALVATION THEY ALREADY POSSESS IN CHRIST.
Let me tell you something pal....you may be able to deceive some.......but most on here see right through the gospel of a different kind that you preach.....a gospel that does not JIVE with scripture or even measure up to being half right!
Let me tell you something pal....you may be able to deceive some.......but most on here see right through the gospel of a different kind that you preach.....a gospel that does not JIVE with scripture or even measure up to being half right!
a. Greek verb tense shows a present continuing result from a past completed action<--was saved, am saved and continuing to be saved into the future.
b. Verbiage -->What does everlasting and eternal mean as applied unto the LIFE given as a GIFT in Christ....it does not say TEMPORARY or CONDITIONAL
c. I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee
d. NOTHING shall separate us from the LOVE of CHRIST
e. IN the FATHER's HAND, in the SON'S hand and SEALED by the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE unto the Day of REDEMPTION
f. BORN of INCORRUPTABLE SEED that DOES NOT SIN <--OUR SPIRIT-->ONCE a SON BY BIRTH ALWAYS A SON BY BIRTH
g. CONTEXT...there are NO VERSES IN CONTEXT that state a man can LOSE that which is ETERNAL
h. WE HAVE BEEN rendered INNOCENT (JUSTIFIED) by FAITH before GOD
I. WHILE WE WERE YET SINNING and SINNERS the righteousness of CHRIST has been IMPUTED BY FAITH
h. WHEN I SEE the blood I WILL PASS OVER YOU
I. JESUS SAID... I WILL LOSE NOTHING the FATHER has given me, but WILL RAISE IT UP THE LAST DAY
j. JESUS is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of our FAITH and he said HE WILL, "NOT MIGHT" FINISH the good work of FAITH HE BEGAN IN US
k. WHATSOEVER GOD DOES is EVERLASTING with NOTHING being ADDED nor TAKEN AWAY Ecclesiastes 3:14 <--INCLUDING SALVATION
l. WE HAVE BEEN sanctified (positionally) in CHRIST forever along with being saved, justified, sealed and sanctified
k. The word translated "IN" as applied to us being placed IN CHRIST <--study that word form the GREEK
L. ETC.....
For one to lose salvation....ALL of the above must fail, be denied, chunked or swept under the rug.......GOD MUST FAIL, JESUS MUST fail and NOT KEEP HIS WORD......the bible is replete with PROOF and the only way ONE can teach that we can lose salvation is to deny the above, and or take scripture out of context, misapply words and verbiage, and just flat twist the word so far out of context to say something that it does not say...........
b. Verbiage -->What does everlasting and eternal mean as applied unto the LIFE given as a GIFT in Christ....it does not say TEMPORARY or CONDITIONAL
c. I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee
d. NOTHING shall separate us from the LOVE of CHRIST
e. IN the FATHER's HAND, in the SON'S hand and SEALED by the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE unto the Day of REDEMPTION
f. BORN of INCORRUPTABLE SEED that DOES NOT SIN <--OUR SPIRIT-->ONCE a SON BY BIRTH ALWAYS A SON BY BIRTH
g. CONTEXT...there are NO VERSES IN CONTEXT that state a man can LOSE that which is ETERNAL
h. WE HAVE BEEN rendered INNOCENT (JUSTIFIED) by FAITH before GOD
I. WHILE WE WERE YET SINNING and SINNERS the righteousness of CHRIST has been IMPUTED BY FAITH
h. WHEN I SEE the blood I WILL PASS OVER YOU
I. JESUS SAID... I WILL LOSE NOTHING the FATHER has given me, but WILL RAISE IT UP THE LAST DAY
j. JESUS is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of our FAITH and he said HE WILL, "NOT MIGHT" FINISH the good work of FAITH HE BEGAN IN US
k. WHATSOEVER GOD DOES is EVERLASTING with NOTHING being ADDED nor TAKEN AWAY Ecclesiastes 3:14 <--INCLUDING SALVATION
l. WE HAVE BEEN sanctified (positionally) in CHRIST forever along with being saved, justified, sealed and sanctified
k. The word translated "IN" as applied to us being placed IN CHRIST <--study that word form the GREEK
L. ETC.....
For one to lose salvation....ALL of the above must fail, be denied, chunked or swept under the rug.......GOD MUST FAIL, JESUS MUST fail and NOT KEEP HIS WORD......the bible is replete with PROOF and the only way ONE can teach that we can lose salvation is to deny the above, and or take scripture out of context, misapply words and verbiage, and just flat twist the word so far out of context to say something that it does not say...........
I agree.....ALL three of them have no leg to stand on.....we have all said that believers will have works of every sort under the sun.....they are lacking any credible understanding that this thread is about FAITH that saves.....there is NO additions to faith to gain eternal salvation....and this I am not saved until the end when Jesus sees my works is idiotic....
James defines the relationship of grace and works.
James 2 NIV
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James 2 NIV
Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Last edited:
N
peter
3Blessed*be*the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you
5*Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation* ready to be revealed in the last time.
amen
3Blessed*be*the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you
5*Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation* ready to be revealed in the last time.
amen
I know...crazy how much proof there is.....these guys preaching this works based café blend salvation are pushing the exact same thing the Pharisees pushed, the same thing Cain pushed with the only difference is the fact that it has been repackaged, rewrapped and a nice new shiny religious bow tied on top.....
N
there are no contradictions in the bible
Romans 4:2-3*
2*For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3*For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:6
6*Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7*Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham
__
Hebrews 11:31
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
romans 3
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:2-3*
2*For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3*For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:6
6*Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7*Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham
__
Hebrews 11:31
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
romans 3
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.