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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #55441
    valleyofdecision
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelOwen View Post
    Ralph, we all live in these sins, if you have committed one sin, you have committed them all. James 2:10," For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

    I am a sinner, I know I am, and I ask the Lord to forgive me where I fail him each and every day, because I feel we all let Him down to a degree each day, but we should still strive to serve Him
    Are you saying you are under the Law?
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  2. #55442
    valleyofdecision
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Budman View Post
    That had to be your dumbest response yet. You didn't even address the two natures at all, you just regurgitated your usual talking points.

    And you basically condemned Paul as not being saved, because he says he is DOING (not did) those evil things he doesn't want to do! He said he KEEPS DOING THEM because of the sin LIVING (not dead) in him!

    John says we won't sin, nor can we. Paul said he keeps doing evil.

    One person = two natures.

    Like I said before - you're not even a challenge anymore.
    Thee are 2 interpretations for Romans 7.

    Some look at Romans 7 to be about Paul fighting 2 natures and while he was saved.

    The other Interpretation that others look to is that Paul was expressing how futile it was to live rightoeus according to the Law before he was converted.


    The key verse people miss, or run past in Romans 7, is Romans 7:6

    6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

    I am not going to sit here and tell a person which interpretation is right for them. I will say that if we say we are constantly fighting 2 natures, then we are making most of what Paul wrote to be a lie. This is because Paul talks in several other of his Epistles about putting on the new man and dying to the old man, being crucified with Christ and begin raised into newness of life. IOW, the New Nature that is born of incorruptible seed allows a man to walk in the Spirit and the Spirit can control a man from living in sin. Note I did not say it makes him perfect, or sinless, I said it keeps him from living in sin.

    This is belonging to Christ Jesus and crucifying the flesh and it's passions and desires.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by valleyofdecision View Post
    Thee are 2 interpretations for Romans 7.

    Some look at Romans 7 to be about Paul fighting 2 natures and while he was saved.

    The other Interpretation that others look to is that Paul was expressing how futile it was to live rightoeus according to the Law before he was converted.


    The key verse people miss, or run past in Romans 7, is Romans 7:6

    6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

    I am not going to sit here and tell a person which interpretation is right for them. I will say that if we say we are constantly fighting 2 natures, then we are making most of what Paul wrote to be a lie. This is because Paul talks in several other of his Epistles about putting on the new man and dying to the old man, being crucified with Christ and begin raised into newness of life. IOW, the New Nature that is born of incorruptible seed allows a man to walk in the Spirit and the Spirit can control a man from living in sin. Note I did not say it makes him perfect, or sinless, I said it keeps him from living in sin.

    This is belonging to Christ Jesus and crucifying the flesh and it's passions and desires.
    There really should not be an argument, Paul used present tense words in his argument. Thats that ai want to do I do not do. He did not use past tense words. So he could not be speaking about his past life. He was speaking of his present war between the spirit and the flesh. ROM 8 is how we, as those who are at risk for having the same struggle, can find victory. WHere do we place our focus? The law or the spirit.

    The victory is that their is no condemnation for those in christ. Thus the law has no power over us (although at times, we give the law power over us, when we look to the flesh, or seek the things of the flesh and not the spirit.)
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Are people aware of impurity entering their lives?

    If they are never purified, no because nothing changes.
    If they are washed clean and known forgiveness, yes.

    Now to those who say, do not worry about defilement, God takes care of it all.
    When you drive a car, 2 seconds of not looking can cost your life.
    It is very easy to drift, and it is not that difficult to pay attention to the road.

    But for these super spiritual types, sin is not a problem, do not even spend time
    repenting and confessing, you will be ok, nothing could ever go wrong, except
    it is going wrong all the time, and nothing is being put right.

    When Paul says live a Holy life, do you really think this means have no awareness
    of what defiles and how to love with a conviction and decisive heart?

    Based on attitudes expressed here, the vehemence of declaring they sin constantly
    there is both not a real understanding of Holiness and evil, or else they are simply
    not saved at all. Certainly I do not hear struggling or sadness of heart over failure.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    come off it

    if you think you dont sin you are decieved

    1 john 1

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    _____

    Phar·i·see
    ˈferəˌsē/Submit
    noun
    a member of an ancient Jewish sect, distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law, and commonly held to have pretensions to superior sanctity.
    ___
    a self-righteous person; a hypocrite.


    ◄ 5330. Pharisaios ►
    Strong's Concordance
    Pharisaios: a Pharisee, member of a Jewish religious sect
    Original Word: Φαρισαῖος, ου, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: Pharisaios
    Phonetic Spelling: (far-is-ah'-yos)
    Short Definition: a Pharisee
    Definition: a Pharisee, one of the Jewish sect so called.
    HELPS Word-studies
    5330 Pharisaíos – properly, "a separatist, a purist"; a Pharisee."

    ["Pharisee" is derived from the Aramaic term, peras ("to divide and separate"). This literally refers to a "separatist"; hence, a Pharisee was someone "separated from sin."]


    ________


    Romans 10:3
    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Please give me one example of one who never sins. Somebody/anybody. Take into account 24 hours of a day.
    "To err is human; to forgive divine."

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by star View Post
    Please give me one example of one who never sins. Somebody/anybody. Take into account 24 hours of a day.
    Jesus

    the only one...

    and by His righteousness His sheep are saved

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by star View Post
    Please give me one example of one who never sins. Somebody/anybody. Take into account 24 hours of a day.
    His name was Jesus.
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    come off it

    if you think you dont sin you are decieved

    1 john 1

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    _____

    Phar·i·see
    ˈferəˌsē/Submit
    noun
    a member of an ancient Jewish sect, distinguished by strict observance of the traditional and written law, and commonly held to have pretensions to superior sanctity.
    ___
    a self-righteous person; a hypocrite.


    ◄ 5330. Pharisaios ►
    Strong's Concordance
    Pharisaios: a Pharisee, member of a Jewish religious sect
    Original Word: Φαρισαῖος, ου, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: Pharisaios
    Phonetic Spelling: (far-is-ah'-yos)
    Short Definition: a Pharisee
    Definition: a Pharisee, one of the Jewish sect so called.
    HELPS Word-studies
    5330 Pharisaíos – properly, "a separatist, a purist"; a Pharisee."

    ["Pharisee" is derived from the Aramaic term, peras ("to divide and separate"). This literally refers to a "separatist"; hence, a Pharisee was someone "separated from sin."]


    ________


    Romans 10:3
    3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    Thats why it is a waste of time, If they can not see their sin, they will never see they have yet to repent. If they can nto see they have never repented, they will never repent. if they never repent. They will remain in unbelief, As they continue to remain in unbelief, they will continue to think they are righteous and holy.
    Only God can help them now. And I pray he does..
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

  10. #55450
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
    Some seem to mistake the objective of participating in forums with domination of one point
    of view.

    We all bring our own experiences and perspectives, and given our backgrounds some might
    find this hard to take.

    I love to here from the Lord through other peoples inspiration and testimony, which is why
    forums are such a blessing,

    grace and Peace to you
    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post



    im only bringing scripture

    my "point of view" has always been subject to change based on Gods inspired written word


    those beliefs that are obvious lies

    are cursed and those who push them are to be as well


    those who God has revealed the truth too here
    only wish to correct those who are trying to spread a false gospel

    all different members of the body wish to shine light on these who are currently functioning as wolves in order they be born again as sheep


    some with a gentle hand to try to guide

    other with a forceful arm wishing to yank them from the broad path


    its a shame some have eyes that dont see
    and ears that dont hear

    because the truth lies in Jesus finished work on the cross

    by His grace through faith we can be saved


    and it is not of our works

    those who are His
    remain His
    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


    Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
    "those beliefs that are obvious lies
    are cursed and those who push them are to be as well"

    "functioning as wolves"

    These are strong words, dangerous accusations.
    In the past such words have led to one group actually killing another over
    points of view of faith, claiming the other side were really xxxxxxxxxxxx evil.

    It is always easy to do this than understand why things are said and believed.
    So I suggest rather than cursing scripture, and cursing believers, you actually
    take time to let the Lord show you what love is and how it works.

    Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus
    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    notice i said those who function as wolves are those who preach a false gospel


    and im not going to kill anyone

    so rest easy
    Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
    My friend, I do not know what you are going to do.




    Your heart will limit how far your emotions run.
    But cursing believers and beliefs generally is not a good idea, endangers your eternal future.

    You need to know the Spirit who you follow, and what are His ways.
    Unfortunately those who go down this road you are travelling harden their hearts to the extent
    they know how to lash out, but not much more, and have become captives of their passions.

    grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus, Amen

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post





    you said i cursed scripture


    i said false gospels are cursed

    those who spread them are CURRENTLY FUNCTIONING AS wolves


    i hope God opens your eyes "light"

    you did falsely accuse me



    but i was once also functioning as a wolf

    until God showed me the truth

    if you are offended by what i said

    that should tell you something
    Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
    So I am falsely accusing you of cursing beliefs and believers?
    And my concern over your spiritual state by cursing should tell me I have problems?

    My friend, God help the confused soul you have become,

    grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus.
    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    you are confused

    these are your words

    "
    So I suggest rather than cursing scripture, and cursing believers, you actually"


    i never once cursed anyone

    i said FALSE preachers ARE cursed BASED on
    SCRIPTURE


    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.




    you have now been a false witness over and over

    you are in error
    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    beliefs that are obvious lies

    are cursed and those who push them are to be as well


    those who God has revealed the truth too here
    only wish to correct those who are trying to spread a false gospel

    all different members of the body wish to shine light on these who are currently functioning as wolves in order they be born again as sheep
    Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
    I wonder at the animosity people have in their hearts.

    Does anyone need a clearer signal than, Jesus is not here, I have serious problems
    and am trying very hard to cover them up.

    Grapes and figs, or thorns and thistles.

    Gentleness and a humble heart, or strident putting people in their place, which is it?

    A young child in a nursery could spot the differences. People want spiritual authority
    and recognition so badly and think bullying and harrying actually is the road to walk.

    Grace and peace to you all, in Christ Jesus who humbled himself and went to the cross
    for our sins, Amen
    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    i cant speak for everyone
    but since you have been talking directly to me
    i forgive you

    and have no animosity despite your lies and false witnesses

    and character attacks even if you refuse to admit your error

    if i bold or make something big

    its in hopes you understand what i mean
    Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
    My friend, beliefs are not obvious lies, because that is why so many believe them.

    The brainwashed and indoctrinated always declare a particular view is so obviously
    wrong, yet we fought two world wars with millions of people believing they were right,
    and there were many lies and truths spoken by both sides.

    Jesus called us to love our enemies, because the truth is we are the same, and often
    put different people in the role of the enemy and friend, and both are wrong.

    First they came for the Communists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Communist
    Then they came for the Socialists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Socialist
    Then they came for the trade unionists
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a trade unionist
    Then they came for the Jews
    And I did not speak out
    Because I was not a Jew
    Then they came for me
    And there was no one left
    To speak out for me

    First they came - Pastor Marin Niemoller

    I have seen many religious groups, from RCC to wakey house church, good people in all
    yet with many contradictions.

    I look to the best in all and their contributions,

    Grace and peace to you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
    My friend, you have said I lied. I told you how your words came across and reflected
    back a warning. People love to play innocents, I never meant the curse on them no
    on them because they really really deserve it.

    And making it bigger, fonts just means you are so emotionally carried away you cannot
    accept some simply do not agree with you. But that should be ok.

    Wisdom. If someone with a good heart points something out that is a problem saying
    they are lying and bearing a false witness just testifies about who you are and nothing else.
    This is behaviour of thorns and thistles, not grace and love.

    I hold no animosity towards you, I have met this approach before, a steam train wanting to
    push all before it. I admire the enthusiasm, but not the content.

    And your words, God forgive your extreme expressions of sin and accusation.

    Grace and peace to you
    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    i corrected you BEFORE i said you lied





    i let you know you falsely accused me


    then you rejected reproof
    even after i TOLD you what i said
    and showed you

    quoted it to show you where you first misunderstood


    you rejected this

    after that it was a lie
    Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
    You really think people desiring to follow Jesus are cursed and their sharing is cursed?
    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    did i say that?


    No.

    6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

    7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.




    you go ahead and keep making false accusations

    i never cursed anyone or anything

    i said false preachers are cursed

    i never said believers

    i said false preachers (who pervert the gospel of Christ)

    i never said scripture

    i said false gospel



    and when i said currently functioning as a wolf
    i implied they too can come to the truth by "currently"


    if you are asking if i think

    "You really think people desiring to follow Jesus are cursed and their sharing is cursed"

    1944. epikataratos ►
    Strong's Concordance
    epikataratos: accursed
    Original Word: ἐπικατάρατος, ον
    Part of Speech: Adjective
    Transliteration: epikataratos
    Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-kat-ar'-at-os)
    Short Definition: accursed
    Definition: on whom a curse has been invoked, accursed, doomed to destruction.

    ^^^^^^^

    if these are sheep in error
    they will hear Gods call
    repent from their false gospel

    and come to the true gospel of Christ

    if these functioning as wolves

    stay wolves and deny the true gospel

    they are cursed "accursed"

    again

    incase you missed it


    8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed


    .............
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  11. #55451
    valleyofdecision
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    There really should not be an argument, Paul used present tense words in his argument. Thats that ai want to do I do not do. He did not use past tense words. So he could not be speaking about his past life. He was speaking of his present war between the spirit and the flesh. ROM 8 is how we, as those who are at risk for having the same struggle, can find victory. WHere do we place our focus? The law or the spirit.

    The victory is that their is no condemnation for those in christ. Thus the law has no power over us (although at times, we give the law power over us, when we look to the flesh, or seek the things of the flesh and not the spirit.)
    This is certainly one interpretation and thought. I always found it very interesting that Paul 's truths in Romans 7 are between Romans 6 & 8.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    ◄ 2398. chata ►
    Strong's Concordance
    chata: to miss, go wrong, sin
    Original Word: חָטָא
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: chata
    Phonetic Spelling: (khaw-taw')
    Short Definition: sinned
    NAS Exhaustive Concordance
    Word Origin
    a prim. root
    Definition
    to miss, go wrong, sin
    _________

    anything other that perfection is missing the mark

    5582. pseusma ►
    Strong's Concordance
    pseusma: a lie, falsehood
    Original Word: ψεῦσμα, ατος, τό
    Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
    Transliteration: pseusma
    Phonetic Spelling: (psyoos'-mah)
    Short Definition: a falsehood, lie
    Definition: a falsehood, lie, untruthfulness.

    and you lied and didnt repent


    you also denied it "light"


    youve been living in sin for awhile now


    put your faith in Jesus

    you cant save yourself

    you need His imputed righteousness


    yours is like a filthy rag
    (as is mine)

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Here is a simple point.
    A person lives alone, with no contact with the outside world.

    The get up, spend time with Jesus. They cook, work and go to bed.
    They wake the next morning to repeat this cycle.

    Now please tell me the sin which you guys want to say they do?

    It is obvious, it is not difficult to not sin in this situation.
    Now extract that further into a social context. Is it still possible not to sin?

    This is where the logic of the monastic life came from. The idea was to reduce
    life down to its most basic elements, and then build it up again.

    Maybe this is new to some of you, but this is as old as the faith.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Jesus Christ was the only perfect, without sin person ever. No one will ever be as perfect as He was.
    "To err is human; to forgive divine."

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    Quote Originally Posted by star View Post
    Jesus Christ was the only perfect, without sin person ever. No one will ever be as perfect as He was.
    amen

    and it is only by Him we have any hope at all...

  16. #55456
    valleyofdecision
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by star View Post
    Jesus Christ was the only perfect, without sin person ever. No one will ever be as perfect as He was.
    That is correct nobody will ever be perfect as Jesus.

    Jesus also does not expect you to live IN sin/flesh and constantly be carnally minded either. Committing sin as a believer is going to happen. Waking constantly in the flesh and being carnal minded at all times and claiming you are growing in Christ is a lie to yourself, others and Jesus and God. The fact is, a person like this is most likely not saved. The Bible says to be carnally minded is to be an enemy or to be hostile with God and cannot please God.~Romans 8:7-8~
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by valleyofdecision View Post
    This is certainly one interpretation and thought. I always found it very interesting that Paul 's truths in Romans 7 are between Romans 6 & 8.
    We still have tense of the words used. I think it may be interesting to. Thats the Way God inspired it. But you can not get away from the tense of the words. There may be two interpretations. But only one fits. Period. If the other interpretation had any root in it, Paul would have spoke of his past life &the things I wanted to do I could nbot do) not his present life (the thing I want to do, I can not do) and this is just one example. He had no war in the past life. He had no spirit to war with, his whole battle pre salvation wasa with the flesh. The war with the spirit did nto occurs until he was made spiritually alive.
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by star View Post
    Jesus Christ was the only perfect, without sin person ever. No one will ever be as perfect as He was.

    Amen, and it was by his stripes we are healed, not our own stripes.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Quote Originally Posted by valleyofdecision View Post
    That is correct nobody will ever be perfect as Jesus.

    Jesus also does not expect you to live IN sin/flesh and constantly be carnally minded either. Committing sin as a believer is going to happen. Waking constantly in the flesh and being carnal minded at all times and claiming you are growing in Christ is a lie to yourself, others and Jesus and God. The fact is, a person like this is most likely not saved. The Bible says to be carnally minded is to be an enemy or to be hostile with God and cannot please God.~Romans 8:7-8~
    very true

    our salvation isnt based on our performance


    after we are saved
    we are saved for good


    but if someone is made a new creature

    the Holy spirit is truely powerful

    and if someone is living like a reprobate
    though we cant see their heart

    id say thats a good sign they were never made new

    God chastens His children

    sin... isnt some play thing
    and grace is not a license to sin

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by valleyofdecision View Post
    That is correct nobody will ever be perfect as Jesus.

    Jesus also does not expect you to live IN sin/flesh and constantly be carnally minded either. Committing sin as a believer is going to happen. Waking constantly in the flesh and being carnal minded at all times and claiming you are growing in Christ is a lie to yourself, others and Jesus and God. The fact is, a person like this is most likely not saved. The Bible says to be carnally minded is to be an enemy or to be hostile with God and cannot please God.~Romans 8:7-8~
    All believers are saved and forgiven for what they believe is sin, and forgiven for things they missed.
    Each must be fully convinced in their own mind what is right and what is Sin.
    The only unforgivable Sin is rejecting the Holy Spirit with will and intent and permanence.
    Even that is forgivable but this sin that leads to death builds a wall that stops us from accepting
    forgiveness. For this reason, it leads to death.

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