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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #55461
    valleyofdecision
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    We still have tense of the words used. I think it may be interesting to. Thats the Way God inspired it. But you can not get away from the tense of the words. There may be two interpretations. But only one fits. Period. If the other interpretation had any root in it, Paul would have spoke of his past life &the things I wanted to do I could nbot do) not his present life (the thing I want to do, I can not do) and this is just one example. He had no war in the past life. He had no spirit to war with, his whole battle pre salvation wasa with the flesh. The war with the spirit did nto occurs until he was made spiritually alive.
    This is your view and not everyone shares this view and see it the other way. Some also share your view. I cannot debate which is the best, each person must conclude what the Holy Spirit revels to them.

    I see Paul's real battle in Romans 7 was struggling to obtain righteousness through the old letter[law] and not through Jesus Christ.

    The 2 natures at war with each other seems to be refuted by Paul in his other Epistles and if you study it out, it shows us this in Romans as well.
    ElAmor likes this.

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    Senior Member Rosemaryx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Hi all...Just popping my head over the covers ...It has been a cold rainy day here in England , anyway , this is a wonderful promise from our LORD Jesus Christ our Savior...

    John 6:37 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”.....God has called us , we belong to Him , we are His children , adopted , sealed , and Jesus has said HE WILL NEVER LET US GO...So please STOP calling us as God's children ZOMBIES , we are a new creation in Christ , we are alive in Christ , we are born again not no longer the walking dead ...

    Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast...Praise the Lord , thank you Jesus......xox...
    PSALM 107:20 He sends His word and heals me and rescues me from the pit and destruction.

  3. #55463
    valleyofdecision
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    very true

    our salvation isnt based on our performance


    after we are saved
    we are saved for good


    but if someone is made a new creature

    the Holy spirit is truely powerful

    and if someone is living like a reprobate
    though we cant see their heart

    id say thats a good sign they were never made new

    God chastens His children

    sin... isnt some play thing
    and grace is not a license to sin
    We do not disagree on anything.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosemaryx View Post
    Hi all...Just popping my head over the covers ...It has been a cold rainy day here in England , anyway , this is a wonderful promise from our LORD Jesus Christ our Savior...

    John 6:37 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”.....God has called us , we belong to Him , we are His children , adopted , sealed , and Jesus has said HE WILL NEVER LET US GO...So please STOP calling us as God's children ZOMBIES , we are a new creation in Christ , we are alive in Christ , we are born again not no longer the walking dead ...

    Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast...Praise the Lord , thank you Jesus......xox...
    amen

    God bless you roseeeee


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by valleyofdecision View Post
    We do not disagree on anything.
    we might disagree on music

    i have peculiar taste

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    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by valleyofdecision View Post
    This is your view and not everyone shares this view and see it the other way. Some also share your view. I cannot debate which is the best, each person must conclude what the Holy Spirit revels to them.
    Thats the problem. And because people feel free interpret the way they want, we have people who do not understand the word,.

    I see Paul's real battle in Romans 7 was struggling to obtain righteousness through the old letter[law] and not through Jesus Christ.
    I disagree, Paul was not talking about his old life. If he did, He would have used past tense words. And not present tense words.


    The 2 natures at war with each other seems to be refuted by Paul in his other Epistles and if you study it out, it shows us this in Romans as well.
    If you had no war with the flesh, you would cease sin. The flesh is self will. The word carnal is the word flesh. To be carnally minded is death, it is. Because sin causes death. A child of God sins because they are at war. And they chose to follow the flesh in that moment and not follow the spirit.

    if we could follow the spirit 24/7, as paul said in romans 8 we should. We would be sinless. I pray you do not think you are sineless.

    Saying the flesh is dead. And has no power is not the same as saying it is god. The power of the flesh wears destroyed at the cross. The victory is roman 8: 1 Yet all believers start out as children (literally babes in christ) and have to learn to walk in the spirit. Because as long as we still give heed to the flesh (our sins) we will continue to sin as we lack faiht in God in areas of our life. The more we learn to trust God. The more the flesh is crucified. And the less we sin (mature believers)
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

  7. #55467
    Senior Member BillG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
    Are people aware of impurity entering their lives?

    If they are never purified, no because nothing changes.
    If they are washed clean and known forgiveness, yes.

    Now to those who say, do not worry about defilement, God takes care of it all.
    When you drive a car, 2 seconds of not looking can cost your life.
    It is very easy to drift, and it is not that difficult to pay attention to the road.

    But for these super spiritual types, sin is not a problem, do not even spend time
    repenting and confessing, you will be ok, nothing could ever go wrong, except
    it is going wrong all the time, and nothing is being put right.

    When Paul says live a Holy life, do you really think this means have no awareness
    of what defiles and how to love with a conviction and decisive heart?

    Based on attitudes expressed here, the vehemence of declaring they sin constantly
    there is both not a real understanding of Holiness and evil, or else they are simply
    not saved at all. Certainly I do not hear struggling or sadness of heart over failure.
    Evening LLH,

    Not sure I can say they I have seen as anyone on here say that sin is not a problem, nor spend time not repenting and confessing.

    People are aware of impurity entering their lives and the impurity in their lives.
    I would say that impurity does not enter our lives, it's already there.
    That's why people declare or acknowledge that they do sin.

    They are not saying it's ok to sin. Those who do acknowledge they do sin I am sure and at the very least they would bring it before God.

    The 'Super spiritual types sin is not a problem as you put it.

    The super spiritual types' are those who actually acknowledge they sin.
    As a person grows and matures in Jesus they become more sensitive to their sin.

    To acknowledge one sins is an understanding of holiness.
    The holiness of God for which one falls short off.

    So when Paul says live a Holy life one needs to know what holiness is and the standard set.
    Gods holiness, that's the standard.

    1 Peter 1:13-16
    Living Before God Our Father
    13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

    We rest upon the grace given to us as a result of Jesus, which leads to obedience.

    The issue is not declaring ones sin, the issue is declaring that they do not sin.
    Furthermore the issue is also when people who say they do sin, they say not willfully, out of disobedience but ignorance, not knowing they sin

    Sin in sin, whether willfully, disobedience or ignorance, or not knowing they have sinned.

    That just excuses sin as much as the super spiritual types' you describe above.

    No man has an excuse for sin.


    That's why Jesus died for our sins.

    To acknowledge one sins but then then say theydo not know they have sinned because it was not wilfull are just as guilty
    As the super spiritual types as you framed above.

    To acknowledge sin is to know one sins, to say that you don't sin knowingly can lead to what you say "why spend time repenting or confessing"

    Each day and every day we should come before God, acknowledge what we got wrong, then ask him "What did I get wrong that I'm not aware off"

    Then we repent, confess and ask him to help us grow.

    That's seeking after his holiness.
    Lord

    Help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

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    Senior Member eternally-gratefull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    For the record. I think telling a baby christian they will never struggle with the desires of the flesh anymore, and this his self will, and gods spirit will be at war with them trying to show them the way of faith, based on the fact they are now saved, is a very dangerous thing, and is setting up a new child of God for utter failure.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

  9. #55469
    Senior Member stonesoffire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    You keep pestering him unreasonably about his identity. What rule # says a person can not come back to the forum after being banned? Can you post it so we can know exactly what the rule says?

    We're all anonymous here and hiding behind screen names, and that's the way it should stay. Too many psychos on line to let people know our real names. That's just common sense.


    And no, I am not FranC.
    I agree you are not presently FranC. But, were you FranC?
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  10. #55470
    Senior Member stonesoffire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by ElAmor View Post
    Can ZOMBIES understand or can they even hear? I don't think so.

    John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
    I would like to hear why you two will not say you are born again.
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  11. #55471
    valleyofdecision
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Thats the problem. And because people feel free interpret the way they want, we have people who do not understand the word,.
    I disagree, Paul was not talking about his old life. If he did, He would have used past tense words. And not present tense words.



    If you had no war with the flesh, you would cease sin. The flesh is self will. The word carnal is the word flesh. To be carnally minded is death, it is. Because sin causes death. A child of God sins because they are at war. And they chose to follow the flesh in that moment and not follow the spirit.

    if we could follow the spirit 24/7, as paul said in romans 8 we should. We would be sinless. I pray you do not think you are sineless.

    Saying the flesh is dead. And has no power is not the same as saying it is god. The power of the flesh wears destroyed at the cross. The victory is roman 8: 1 Yet all believers start out as children (literally babes in christ) and have to learn to walk in the spirit. Because as long as we still give heed to the flesh (our sins) we will continue to sin as we lack faiht in God in areas of our life. The more we learn to trust God. The more the flesh is crucified. And the less we sin (mature believers)
    Did I ever say you, me or anyone was sinless or perfect? Show me where I said this. Please stop acting like some chat board pastor and stop always looking for the fight. I carefully stated my position and was very careful to point out not one person is sinless or perfect, but we could mature in Christ and crucify the flesh.

    We are saying the same thing and only disagree on the theology of what Paul was saying in Chapter 7. Since we disagree on that and that alone, you seem to think you need to straighten me out or something.
    dcontroversal likes this.

  12. #55472
    Senior Member Rosemaryx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    For the record. I think telling a baby christian they will never struggle with the desires of the flesh anymore, and this his self will, and gods spirit will be at war with them trying to show them the way of faith, based on the fact they are now saved, is a very dangerous thing, and is setting up a new child of God for utter failure.
    Hi EG...I totally agree with you because I have been this person you are talking about...My faith has been shaking from this nonsense that no one should be sinning once saved...It took BillG to restore me in areas and show me Scriptures , and also NNM who helped me to as I became fearful...

    But thanks be to God for brothers & sisters in here who swing their swords high for the name of Christ , I have been walking with our Lord for nearly 3 years now and I have become a lot stronger in my faith as God gives me more , and I have many times gained encouragement from you and others who do not shake to and fro , and remain steadfast all the way...God bless you all...xox...
    PSALM 107:20 He sends His word and heals me and rescues me from the pit and destruction.

  13. #55473
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by ElAmor View Post
    I easily get provoked esp. when someone is not being honest.

    We are JUSTIFIED through Faith and this is not by our own works (eph 2:8-9)

    We do not SAVE ourselves but God puts the believer in His body to do His WORKS of salvation.

    Philippians 2:22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the WORK OF THE GOSPEL

    Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

    It is the BODY OF CHRIST, the Church, whom He will save and not a personal salvation.( ephesians 5:23)

    God the Father is the HEAD of Jesus which means that He is the BODY of the Father.( 1 corinthians 11:3 ) and He did the will of the Father here on earth.( matthew 6:10, 7:21, 12:50 )

    John 4:34-38 “My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor.”

    John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.

    Since we are the body of Christ whom He will save, we are to do His will just as He has done the will of the Father.

    John 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.( john 16:10 )

    If after being JUSTIFIED being made a member/part of His body, we deliberately sin( hebrews 10:26 ), disobey His commands ( ephesians 5:6, titus 1:16 )and do not continue in His kindness, we will be cut off from Him,( rom 11:22 )

    Matthew 25:26-30 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. “‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    Matthew 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    1 Corinthians 13:1-13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    Love is a work that we must do to be saved.
    Like I said...a works based salvation with a "must" that goes beyond what the bible requires............

  14. #55474
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by ElAmor View Post
    Matthew 25:40-46 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
    This has NOTHING to do with the verses in question...................wow.......again....I proved you wrong and you switch gears with scriptures that have no bearing on what you posted.....

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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by ElAmor View Post
    Can ZOMBIES understand or can they even hear? I don't think so.

    John 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
    You got that right...only one problem...your not looking in the mirror........and I hear just fine.....He that believes is having everlasting life.<<<----called faith....not a works based false salvation that you embrace.....

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    I agree you are not presently FranC. But, were you FranC?
    too vague

    were you ever registered on Christianchat (this website)
    as a female user who has gotten banned

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosemaryx View Post
    Hi EG...I totally agree with you because I have been this person you are talking about...My faith has been shaking from this nonsense that no one should be sinning once saved...It took BillG to restore me in areas and show me Scriptures , and also NNM who helped me to as I became fearful...

    But thanks be to God for brothers & sisters in here who swing their swords high for the name of Christ , I have been walking with our Lord for nearly 3 years now and I have become a lot stronger in my faith as God gives me more , and I have many times gained encouragement from you and others who do not shake to and fro , and remain steadfast all the way...God bless you all...xox...
    It is so good to see growth in here,. Sometimes youy wonder if anyone is even listening. I am so thankful you are finding peace and rest. Like God promised.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by valleyofdecision View Post
    Thee are 2 interpretations for Romans 7.

    Some look at Romans 7 to be about Paul fighting 2 natures and while he was saved.

    The other Interpretation that others look to is that Paul was expressing how futile it was to live rightoeus according to the Law before he was converted.


    The key verse people miss, or run past in Romans 7, is Romans 7:6

    6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

    I am not going to sit here and tell a person which interpretation is right for them. I will say that if we say we are constantly fighting 2 natures, then we are making most of what Paul wrote to be a lie. This is because Paul talks in several other of his Epistles about putting on the new man and dying to the old man, being crucified with Christ and begin raised into newness of life. IOW, the New Nature that is born of incorruptible seed allows a man to walk in the Spirit and the Spirit can control a man from living in sin. Note I did not say it makes him perfect, or sinless, I said it keeps him from living in sin.

    This is belonging to Christ Jesus and crucifying the flesh and it's passions and desires.
    What did Jesus mean when he said...

    The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by valleyofdecision View Post
    Did I ever say you, me or anyone was sinless or perfect? Show me where I said this. Please stop acting like some chat board pastor and stop always looking for the fight. I carefully stated my position and was very careful to point out not one person is sinless or perfect, but we could mature in Christ and crucify the flesh.
    Stop being offended and acting like someone is judging you and actually try to listen to what other say, Is that so hard?

    1. I never said you were or claimed anyone was perfect. If you actually read what I said, you would see this.
    2. I stated what I believe, that if we no longer have a war with the flesh, we would be sinless. Thats my view. I did not say it to offend you or judge you. Just telling you what I believe, Just like You told me what you believed. Did I say you were acting like a chat board pastor when you told me what you believed?

    Practice what you preach.

    We are saying the same thing and only disagree on the theology of what Paul was saying in Chapter 7. Since we disagree on that and that alone, you seem to think you need to straighten me out or something.
    No we are not saying the same thing, we are not even remotely saying the same thing. But that is fine, We do not have to agree on everything.

    And please stop with your nonsense. I gave you my view, if that offends you., Then maybe you need to go someplace else. Because as long as you are here people will disagree with you. And if your going to act like you just did when people disagree with you, your not going to be very happy, or garner very much conversation
    dcontroversal and Budman like this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    There really should not be an argument, Paul used present tense words in his argument. Thats that ai want to do I do not do. He did not use past tense words. So he could not be speaking about his past life. He was speaking of his present war between the spirit and the flesh. ROM 8 is how we, as those who are at risk for having the same struggle, can find victory. WHere do we place our focus? The law or the spirit.

    The victory is that their is no condemnation for those in christ. Thus the law has no power over us (although at times, we give the law power over us, when we look to the flesh, or seek the things of the flesh and not the spirit.)

    Verb tense settles a lot of arguments........like if salvation is a present reality from past completed action with present continuing results........

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