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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #55561
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    Default Re: Not By Works



    Bring your friends! Refreshments included Cats are welcome

    *In special honor of the NBW Thread, there will be LOTS of cake and lasagna!


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    simple response, tell me accprding to pauls gospel, what is the difference between these two Groups of people.

    3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them <which do such things, and doest the same,< that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? <

    4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? <<<<

    5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:<<<7>>>To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: ( those who patiently continue in doing well)


    8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.



    v... 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."



    now, without going and grabbing a bunch of grace scriptures, first address what paul is clearly teaching here, to the roman church. these epistles arent addressed to anyone other than believers in the church. so the argument so many try making well this line is for the church, but not this one, these 2 verses yea they are for you but not this one..... thats just silly, are you going to argue what determines eternal Life, or wrath accprding to "pauls gospel"


    or is it way to clear to see

    6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:<<<7>>>To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


    pretty hard to eliminate the person actions there, what about the other group who refuse to obey the gospel?

    8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."



    now, sure you can go to galatians, or ephesians and pull a verse that says " were saved by Grace"


    My thing tho is who has came up with this bizarre, grace lens that people try to look through? the one that changes the rest of the epistles and eliminates pauls doctrine and calls it the gog.

    How does what paul say about Grace, then suddenly change all the rest of what He said about things like this eternal Judgement. it doesnt because Grace is given to teach us to repent of sin and live godly lives here and now. there is nothing valid that will insist nothing we do matters. if grace doesnt lead to repentance its not Gods grace. if a christian wants to be saved, send them to Jesus He has no distortions He is the One God annointed for the purpose or preaching the Gospel. by the way, Jesus taeches the exact same Judgement paul does...obvously since Jesus is the Lord and the Lords Word stands forever and all.


    that sort of means we dont then go erase all the things He said, that we dont agree with. in the end each of us will go and asnwer to Jesus. The Words of the One and Only Judge, are published and available in every nation on earth, he seems to make it pretty important what we do, Being this is true

    2 corinthians 5 " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."


    just that 1 verse, should make you understand hopw important what we do, is. Jesus is going to judge the world according to His word. its already in front of us. One way. Jesus.




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    Quote Originally Posted by LightLoveHope View Post
    I need a translation filter.

    A group appear to be saying if you encourage others, as Jesus and the apostles said,
    to do good works, showing the love God has planted within and cleansing out the sin
    and evil that once resided there, this is pointing to man.

    The stupidity of this logic, is the whole point is Jesus turning sinners into saints through
    His grace, bringing glory to the King.

    What these people want to claim is they point to Jesus, except Jesus without His words,
    without His precepts, love, victory and overcoming in the believer.

    If Jesus does not effect the believer to His glory, then what is the point of witnessing,
    because Jesus does nothing. But the heart of this lie, is disobedience to the word of God,
    rebellion against repentance, confession and humbleness. Everything is turned upside down,
    like the drug addict who has found a pile of heroin so he can kick back all he likes, he is
    in heaven, except it will lead him straight to death.

    This core point of rebellion against loving each other as He has loved us, is they believe that
    kind of love is impossible. And this is true if one is not filled with the Holy Spirit, so enough
    said. Halleluyah that He empowers us to walk in His ways.
    I suggest that you think about what Paul wrote about himself. We all face this struggle and require Jesus to deliver us like he states.

    Romans 7 NIV

    14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
    Last edited by Endoscopy; February 14th, 2018 at 01:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    The new grace doctrine in the church is the new once saved always saved doctrine. You can't even see it's opposed to your Calvinist doctrine.

    Calvinism is on it's way out. Now the person living in sin is saved just as long as he 'got saved' somewhere in the past. In Calvinism, that person was never saved to begin with. In Arminianism, he either was never saved to begin with, or lost his salvation.

    I have been around most of these people on this BOARD, way longer then You have been on the board. They have most of them are of the SAME doctrinal Faith as I have been. You have only been here since here since Aug. 12, 2017. Therefore, it has been obvious that you are guilty of misjudges people. PLUS they are almost NO SUCH CHURCHES that you describe, therefore I believe you have misjudged much of those CHURCHES, so you are one with a PHOBIA, and you are on a Crusade to Hunt Down those Phobia induces WITCH HUNT, that you are on.

    The Bible Belt includes North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas, Tennessee, West Virginia, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, and most of northern Florida.

    There is a mini Bible Belt in Northern California, through out Oregon and EVEN into rural Washington.

    We do not know of a church that teaches the Gospel, different then me. SO WHERE ARE YOUR WITCHES.

    t t t
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    Quote Originally Posted by followjesus View Post
    simple response, tell me accprding to pauls gospel, what is the difference between these two Groups of people.

    3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them <which do such things, and doest the same,< that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? <

    4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? <<<<

    5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:<<<7>>>To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: ( those who patiently continue in doing well)


    8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.



    v... 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."



    now, without going and grabbing a bunch of grace scriptures, first address what paul is clearly teaching here, to the roman church. these epistles arent addressed to anyone other than believers in the church. so the argument so many try making well this line is for the church, but not this one, these 2 verses yea they are for you but not this one..... thats just silly, are you going to argue what determines eternal Life, or wrath accprding to "pauls gospel"


    or is it way to clear to see

    6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:<<<7>>>To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


    pretty hard to eliminate the person actions there, what about the other group who refuse to obey the gospel?

    8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God."



    now, sure you can go to galatians, or ephesians and pull a verse that says " were saved by Grace"


    My thing tho is who has came up with this bizarre, grace lens that people try to look through? the one that changes the rest of the epistles and eliminates pauls doctrine and calls it the gog.

    How does what paul say about Grace, then suddenly change all the rest of what He said about things like this eternal Judgement. it doesnt because Grace is given to teach us to repent of sin and live godly lives here and now. there is nothing valid that will insist nothing we do matters. if grace doesnt lead to repentance its not Gods grace. if a christian wants to be saved, send them to Jesus He has no distortions He is the One God annointed for the purpose or preaching the Gospel. by the way, Jesus taeches the exact same Judgement paul does...obvously since Jesus is the Lord and the Lords Word stands forever and all.


    that sort of means we dont then go erase all the things He said, that we dont agree with. in the end each of us will go and asnwer to Jesus. The Words of the One and Only Judge, are published and available in every nation on earth, he seems to make it pretty important what we do, Being this is true

    2 corinthians 5 " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."


    just that 1 verse, should make you understand hopw important what we do, is. Jesus is going to judge the world according to His word. its already in front of us. One way. Jesus.




    Try this on for size.

    Ephesians 2 New International Version (NIV)

    Made Alive in Christ

    2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    Grace is the free gift of salvation from Jesus. There is nothing we can do to earn it. Jesus redeems us with grace. It is part and parcel of salvation. What is your problem with that word in scripture?
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    I just heard this song for the first time, and loved it so much, I thought I would share it with my brothers and sisters in Christ who so faithfully and tirelessly contend for the faith in the Not By Works thread



    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    of course it matters

    what im saying

    is a born again believer is saved....
    forever


    what im asking ralph

    if once you are born of God
    made new do you think you can lose salvation?

    because thats not biblical
    N..,

    Suggest you do further study...if you are concluding that a repented person cannot loose that status...OSAS;

    That is not biblical.

    If you are saying that after physical death if we are declared ..."saved"...by G-d, upon review, that is correct...it is permanent.

    The Bible says...."maintain until the end" (physical death);

    The Bible warns against " backsliding";

    The Bible warns against loss of crowns;..."let no man take your crowns".



    .
    Blessings to you.

    preston39

    "without Christ you are alone......you can't handle it"!

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Speak2Me View Post
    Christians have been known to completely rebel from God & apostatize.

    We're living right now in the Falling Away of the church.

    Sinners can't fall away when they're already on the bottom.

    "You'll know them by their fruits."
    God's definition of an apostate is different to the world's. The book of Jude specifically confirms that apostates are those who don't have the Spirit. Therefore, we know they're not born again believers.

    Do you not believe that the church congregations have a mix of believers and non believers in them? Because you seem to focus solely on believers as being the ones that fall away, when the scriptures say otherwise.

    1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us"


    Jude:

    Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Old and New Apostates (shows us what old apostates were like, so we have an example)

    But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

    Apostates Depraved and Doomed

    These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

    Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

    Apostates Predicted

    These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

    Maintain Your Life with God

    But you, beloved (believers), building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. (Distinction is made between believers and apostates)

    Glory to God

    Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.
    "If we want to study the word of God, we need to have an open mind to allow the Holy Spirit to teach us. A closed mind lets in no light. If the Spirit illuminates a scripture, we need to be willing to display a teachable spirit. When we align ourselves with any particular camp we are no longer teachable. That is elementary"


    John 14:27: "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid"


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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Endoscopy View Post
    Try this on for size.

    Ephesians 2 New International Version (NIV)

    Made Alive in Christ

    2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    Grace is the free gift of salvation from Jesus. There is nothing we can do to earn it. Jesus redeems us with grace. It is part and parcel of salvation. What is your problem with that word in scripture?

    yes that Highlights my point exactly, first thoiugh ive never in my life said anyone can " earn salvation" thats Just what people interpret whan anyone says " hey doesnt the Bible continously teach us to repent of sin and obey God? then the response is lol " no one can earn salvation"


    you totally reject one section and then move to explain How its a free gift, and the other things cant apply lol....


    its a bit like having a novel, and trying to explain the novel using the sentance in the book that you personally like the Most. grace is a consistant thing in scripture.

    God has always given us grace. He created adam, Gave Him the earth as His Kingdom Gave Him complete freedom and One warning. adam then chose to believe the lie and disbelieve Gods warning. Gods Grace warned adam of the Only danger. God Created adam in Grace, adam earned nothing, God made Him and blessed Him with all He had just made. that Grace.

    when all men were evil and God was Grieved in His heart, and decided to destroy man and all life with us, He gave grace to noah " genesis 6:8" and warned Noah, told im what He was going to do, and then He told Noah exactly what to do, to be saved. Noah had faith God was telling the truth. He was saved By Grace, through Faith.

    it wasnt about the Law, there was no law then, it was because God told Him " the end is coming, build an ark and you will live" detailed all Noah needed to Know Noah was smart enough to Know surely God is gracious, But also He is not going to Lie about the coming destruction, i should probably go ahead and believe Him.

    again how does a oaragraph from ephesians, regarding an unrelated subject, change what Paul said to the church about either eternal Life, or wrath and destruction?

    can you address the difference in the two Groups? isnt it what they actually do, that determines thier end? seems Like thats Kind of what it says I wonder if anyone else in the Bible teaches the same thing?......Yes, Jesus, solomon, moses, Isaiah, zechariah, John, Peter......


    seems Like One consistant aspect of doctrine, doesnt omit the next consistant aspect of doctrine to me. but instead maybe Just maybe the word " grace" actually needs to be taken in context of what the Bible says instead of what a few verses say that incluse the word " Grace" maybe...just Maybe


    Heres My Point with Paul He taught this

    As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which >God prepared <in advance >for us to do. <


    do you see How paul is saying " you used to follow the lusts of the flesh like the others in the world? and How its all past tense? we are supposed to be the new Guy. the One created in Christ to actually do good works not explain to people why we dont need to do anything because of Grace"

    Grace saves, because it does this

    titus 2 "
    For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."


    do you see How theres really no way to say that Grace means we dont need to do anything? or that we should think anything we do lol is a work? because were supposed to be Zealous of good works, we should want to do them, we should be thankful that God taught us the gospel so We actually Know what He wants. Grace doesnt work by Just everyone say Grace and nothing else applies. thats the wrong way to look at the bible. Gods grace made us, kept us alive as a species, Made the rpomise to abraham, Delivered the Israelites from bondage in Egypt, Gave the Law to them, Gave baptism to the world, Gave the Messiah and the Gospel to all mankind spreading it to the ends of the earth, 4 accounts no less.

    Gods Grace is not a new thing, Jesus is the New thing, the One who came teaching and showing Grace and truth. thats the Kingdom of God


    Jesus says if you keep my word, i will send the spirit to you"


    Jesus says " Neither do I condemn you, now go and sin no more"


    Jesus says " whoever Hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal Life and will not come into Judgement"


    Jesus says " whoever obeys my word, will never see death"


    Jesus says " it is not those who call Me Lord Lord who will be saved, but those who do the will of My Father in Heaven."


    Jesus says " I will be raised up Like the brazen serpent of Moses" so that all who look to me can live"


    and He taught you must repent or you will die Just Like paul taught if you continue in the deeds of the flesh you will die.

    Jesus taught such Deth of Gods forgiveness and Grace, and He taught the things we need to learn and do. were not supposed to choose between Grace and truth as if they are contrary, we take all of it, and it changes us inside, because we believe. salvation is the way Jesus said it is, not a sentance but just what He said as we Learn.

    People have this wierdidea Jesus pre cross doesnt apply yet Jesus taught the same things Paul taught. he taught He would die, be raised up, ascend to Heaven and send the Holy spirit, that He would die as a ransom ect.

    Jesus was teaching them the things the apostles all taught the church. not just one aspect all of it, even what we personally dont like to Hear. all im saying is paul taught much to do, and much that we can do to disqualify our inheritance, Being born again isnt the end its the beginning.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    I'm challenging the church's doctrine that says a 'believer' can live in a homosexual relationship, be a drunkard, look at pornographic content, love the world, etc. and they can be saved because salvation is not by works, and once you are saved you can not lose your salvation.

    I've been saying if you think that and live like that you show that you are not saved. John said it, not me. But for some reason the church has decided that he is wrong.

    The problem with this new grace doctrine is it makes John a liar. He said the person who lives in sin is not born again. Didn't you know this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph- View Post
    You can't have it both ways. That's why it's impossible to talk to you people. You say the person living in sin is not born again, then you turn right around and say some believers are still living in sin.
    Who are you challenging?!? I don't know of any believer that supports or promotes this, so not sure where you're getting this from?

    Sin is sin, but there is a difference between a sinful lifestyle and a sinful temptation, and I think this is where the confusion is.

    The scripture that comes to mind...

    1 Cor 6:9-11: Do you not know that the unrighteous (non believers) will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you (believers). But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God"

    The ones involved in/"living in" such sinful lifestyles are non believers, lost in the world, who have not been convicted of their sins yet. It says "And such were some of you" as in some believers used to be involved in those lifestyles before they became new creatures in Christ. They don't go back to that life.

    As for believers, we are not sinless, because while we have these bodies we will always struggle with the sin nature. So believers will occasionally fail, whether they have a wrongful thought or get angry. Still wrong, but this is not the same as living in a sinful lifestyle. A believer does not go back to life as a thief, or back to a homosexual lifestyle, for example.


    Romans 7:14-25:

    "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

    I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin"
    "If we want to study the word of God, we need to have an open mind to allow the Holy Spirit to teach us. A closed mind lets in no light. If the Spirit illuminates a scripture, we need to be willing to display a teachable spirit. When we align ourselves with any particular camp we are no longer teachable. That is elementary"


    John 14:27: "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid"


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    Quote Originally Posted by preston39 View Post
    N..,

    Suggest you do further study...if you are concluding that a repented person cannot loose that status...OSAS;

    That is not biblical.

    If you are saying that after physical death if we are declared ..."saved"...by G-d, upon review, that is correct...it is permanent.

    The Bible says...."maintain until the end" (physical death);

    The Bible warns against " backsliding";

    The Bible warns against loss of crowns;..."let no man take your crowns".



    .
    you can take one verse out of context
    but as a whole

    the bible is clear in that once you are born again
    you are saved

    those who become self righteous
    or reprobate

    were never truely of us...He never knew them

    ill continue to study it for the rest of my life though
    lol
    so even though i completely disagree with you
    ill at least thank you for the wise suggestion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy-follower View Post
    God's definition of an apostate is different to the world's. The book of Jude specifically confirms that apostates are those who don't have the Spirit. Therefore, we know they're not born again believers.

    Do you not believe that the church congregations have a mix of believers and non believers in them? Because you seem to focus solely on believers as being the ones that fall away, when the scriptures say otherwise.

    1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us"


    Jude:

    Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Old and New Apostates (shows us what old apostates were like, so we have an example)

    But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

    Apostates Depraved and Doomed

    These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

    Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

    Apostates Predicted

    These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

    Maintain Your Life with God

    But you, beloved (believers), building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. (Distinction is made between believers and apostates)

    Glory to God

    Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.
    amen


    very well said

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    Happy Valentine's Day to all my friends on the Not By Works thread..

    Valentine-1.jpg
    My testimonies are below.


    http://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/94389-blue_ladybugs-uterine-cancer-battle.html

    http://christianchat.com/miscellaneo...-vs-light.html

    http://christianchat.com/miscellaneo...h-my-pain.html

    http://christianchat.com/miscellaneo...s-suicide.html


    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    ​ Orange kitties approve



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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    lol i have rhino like skin on my hands and use this little touch screen

    my grammar is horrible

    i dont even bother with caps or punctuation
    I have an IPAD whcih goes on autocorrect spurts from time to time, and I fail to catch it before I hit send and 5 minutes is up. Either way, It does not I matter, Paul could not write very well. He had others write for him. He even had to use his own hand writing once to prove to people it was him.

    if framer and spelling is what makes us perfect. I am lost.. and have no hope either way..lol

    either way, When a person comes after another person and judges them as false based solely on their grammar and spelling. It is time to move on, That person has lost any respect and a person who really wants to discuss the word of God.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    of course it matters

    what im saying

    is a born again believer is saved....
    forever


    what im asking ralph

    if once you are born of God
    made new

    do you think you can lose salvation?

    because thats not biblical

    I can not see his nonsense unless someone quotes it, Has he ever answered this question about maintaining salvation?
    dcontroversal and Budman like this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katy-follower View Post
    Who are you challenging?!? I don't know of any believer that supports or promotes this, so not sure where you're getting this from?

    Sin is sin, but there is a difference between a sinful lifestyle and a sinful temptation, and I think this is where the confusion is.

    The scripture that comes to mind...

    1 Cor 6:9-11: Do you not know that the unrighteous (non believers) will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you (believers). But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God"

    The ones involved in/"living in" such sinful lifestyles are non believers, lost in the world, who have not been convicted of their sins yet. It says "And such were some of you" as in some believers used to be involved in those lifestyles before they became new creatures in Christ. They don't go back to that life.

    As for believers, we are not sinless, because while we have these bodies we will always struggle with the sin nature. So believers will occasionally fail, whether they have a wrongful thought or get angry. Still wrong, but this is not the same as living in a sinful lifestyle. A believer does not go back to life as a thief, or back to a homosexual lifestyle, for example.


    Romans 7:14-25:

    "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

    I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin"
    amen sis, Preach it!
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Let me summarise some contributors.
    Someone shouts
    "I am a sinner, how dare you, you legalist, hypocrite, blind pharisee claim anything, you
    are lost and blind. Look at this scripture and that, God says and I can speak on His behalf"

    Now the only people who can speak on Gods behalf are His Holy, purified and anointed people
    who speak from His word. They speak not their own ideas, but those given by the Holy Spirit.

    This is what James says

    Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
    Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
    Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
    Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
    There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?
    James 4:8-12

    Unless we are pure we can not see the problem in another. It is this simple.
    It is not new, it is simply, until you have been purified, so many things are distorted
    in ones heart, to know what to say and how to reach out to others is a mystery.

    People have spoken of arrogance, pride, boasting, and simply got it wrong.
    They have claimed people are looking at man and not God, while these people have
    been proclaiming the work of God in their lives and what great things He has done.

    Because so many know little victory or consistency, this does not mean victory is
    empty. or the promises or power in Christ is lacking, but rather they have still a
    long way to go.

    Put simply, purity is the key to Jesus and seeing love at work. Impurity dooms one
    to judgement. Know who and what you are, and take what Christ has given you in faith.

    For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
    Ephesians 5:5

    This is no joke, or mild warning. Purity is our calling. Maybe faith is just a cultural
    excuse, I do not know why you do not take Gods words seriously, because you believe
    in them is life. And yes it is hard, and much needs to be fought through and change
    achieved, but there is resolution, there is true healing and peace.

    But not alone, not in isolation but as a body of believers, encouraging one another
    to love and good works in Jesus Christ's name. Amen

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    A forever circle

    I come to faith, I trust in Christ for my salvation, I am saved.
    I come to the conclusion that some can have a similar experience to myself yet fall away.

    Now some say, that means though I was saved, it was fake because I came to believe
    people could later reject Jesus.

    But wait, the same people say even if I come to believe anything after being born again,
    I can never lose it, so by their own logic I am still saved. And if I am still saved, it
    does not matter what I believe in regards to security.

    So why the antagonism? Because this is about deep hurt and bondage and blame from
    the past, and those believers who are similar to the "evil" preachers who hurt them are
    definately not saved.

    So guys, if you know Christ, if you have any faith and knowledge of His saving grace,
    you have to forgive and love those brothers and sisters in the past who hurt you, from
    your heart. If you cannot do this, then you have not yet entered in to the love that
    Christ is offering. There are no demands we can make on others, only submission to
    our King and the grateful praise for the sins we have been forgiven, and that we hold
    nothing against anyone.

    When you find this place, then you will see how to minister to believers who may be
    caught in many issues from the past. Until then, everything one does will be tainted
    with the sin one carries within, and hurt and desire for revenge.

    Purity and cleansing is this simple. Until we forgive others so the slate is clean, we
    do not know fully what Jesus is talking about. And this is very hard, until you let
    go and put it all at the foot of the cross. Amen.

  19. #55579
    Senior Member BillG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_ladybug View Post
    Happy Valentine's Day to all my friends on the Not By Works thread..

    Valentine-1.jpg
    Roses are Red
    Ladybug is blue
    Hay precious sister
    God bless you
    Lord

    Help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Nothing like resting in the promises and power of Christ


    he saves by faith ALONE and saves eternally.....

    Saved (past tense) by faith into the work of Christ
    Justified (past tense) by the imputed righteousness of Christ
    SEALED (past tense) by the Holy Spirit of promise
    Sanctified (positionally in Christ and past tense) eternally by the application of the blood dia faith
    KEPT by the power of GOD
    HELD by the FATHER'S HAND
    HELD by the SON'S hand
    COVERED by the OUT BOUNDING GRACE OF GOD
    GIVEN ETERNAL/EVERLASTING LIFE as a FREE GIFT
    CHRIST promises to NEVER leave us or FORSAKE US
    CHRIST promises to RAISE US UP at the last day and HE LOSES NOTHING
    CHRIST is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of OUR FAITH (SOURCE)
    CHRIST promises to COMPLETE the work he BEGAN IN US
    CHRIST (thru PAUL) states that NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE of CHRIST
    THE HOPE Christ has GIVEN is a CONFIDENT EXPECTATION of something GUARANTEED
    JESUS chastens HIS SONS for DISOBEDIENCE he does not CAST US AWAY
    ONCE a SON BY BIRTH always as SON by BIRTH

    Thank God for the above which = eternal security

    Those who believe salvation can be lost, forfeit, gained, kept or maintained by what they do in essence and word deny the above truths...........for salvation to be lost ALL of the above must be denied, explained away, chunked under the bus or flat denied......end of story.

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