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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #63281
    Senior Member TruthTalk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    Sorry to hear about your disability but glad you are able to find a ministry online and that you were able to serve as deacon/elder in your church.

    It seems a common story for those who regularly post on the forums to be homebound for some reason.
    H Ariel82, you are absolutely right about that. I am going through a 6 month nuclear radioactive treatment for prostate cancer. God is with me every step of the way and I wake up with a smile on my face every morning just praising Jesus for all the he does for us. I am physically,
    'badly bent but not broken.'

    Pastor John Piper wrote a book called, "Don't Waste Your Cancer" where by he says God can still use us as a servant even through our present disability. Pastor John Piper also has prostate cancer.

    Nice post and thanks, God bless!

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by joefizz View Post
    You do realize that "all authority and power" was given to Jesus including "forgiveness of sins" right?
    He would take his Father's position. As he personally said, if you forgive, then I will forgive you. If you don't, I will not. The Son always does the will of the Father. Same doctrine.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    You state this and then add works.,,
    Only that faith produces works.

    The Bible states faith without works is dead.
    No works no faith.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthTalk View Post
    We are saved by grace through faith - not by works, so that no one can boast.

    Basic Sunday School Theology, where even a child can understand this basic principal. "Not By Works", difficult lesson for some. Saved "unto good works" not by them.

    Ephesians 2:8-10
    8)
    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God,
    9) not by works, so that no one can boast.
    10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
    Do you have a discussion with your Sunday School class that if after a while, you find that the good works that you were saved unto, is not being done, or is such a burden that you feel uncomfortable, so that maybe you were never really saved in the first place. Is that part of the discussion.

    Is the idea that we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works, but everytime a good works situation came about you found an excuse to go to the movies or go out with other friends, so that you missed the opportunity to do good works is a sign that you may have never been saved in the first place.

    I really hate to break a bubble of enthusiasm, but I see in the Christian church a going away from good works, primarily because people in Sunday School are taught that good works is not necessary, so it's OK to not even come to church, since that is a good work and became unnecessary when the law of Moses was fulfilled and the day of grace took its place.

    You want to help these people so much to make it easy and cozy to come to Christ that you are not telling them the other side of the coin, and therefore I believe it will be to their detriment until they hear the full story of eternal life.

  5. #63285
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by benhur View Post
    I agree, we must be able to agree to disagree, maintaining a Christian love for each other.

    My research lead me to a battle on the seas in which it was said that a ship that was so damaged, was baptized in the sea and was not seen again. This secular meaning of the word 'baptize' is used in exactly the same way that we use the word baptize in a religious way, so I was comfortable with this and did no further research.

    In a book called The Shepherd of Hermes (I think - it was a long time ago), dated somewhere between 60-100ad, some churches began to sprinkle or pour water over the head because they were in places where there was not a lot of water, so they changed the ordinance to accomidate their circumstances. I, personally would have made a pilgrimage to a place where there was much water and been baptized as was done originally.

    Also, when churches began to believe in the baptism of infants, the priest was worried about fully immersing an infant in the water, therefore, again, they changed the ordinance and started sprinkling or pouring.

    Originally, John the Baptist and the apostles of Jesus baptized by complete immersion. There are very strong and important symbolisms that exist in a full immersion baptism, the affects of which are not visible when sprinkling or pouring.

    So I vote to stay with the original way of baptizing.
    The problem is that several gospel preaching denominations use sprinkling and pouring. Presbyterian PCA and Reformed Church in America for example. They have doctrinal statements backing this up. Therefore it is an issue that we are to agree to disagree.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works.
    Works are produced from a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10) and not a dead faith. In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works (as some would presume). That's like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit.

    James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works (James 2:14), then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
    [/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works.
    In a holy scripture from the bible, Mark 16:16, Jesus tells us that in order to be saved you have to believe and be baptized. You are saying that we are saved by grace through faith. Which is it? Or is it a combination?

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    but you add works, so your boasting in self also
    Which is worse, if I boast of my good works, or you, who boasts of your humility and how you don't boast in yourself.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    You are to focused on works (self ) man

    faith does not have a god works component, (that would suggest faih could be void of works) faith produces good works, you will never see true saving faith apart from works. Because faith works
    .
    I will never see faith apart from good works, because as you say: faith produces good works. And as James says, if you don't have good works, it is a sure sign that your faith is dead. They all wrap around each other.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    So basically you believe those who don't get water baptized are not saved?

    Those who are part of the Body of Christ are of One spirit and One baptism...not two.
    Well, according to the holy bible and Mark 16:16, the answer is 'yes'.

    One spirit = 1, One Baptism = 2 So when a person is baptized by full immersion in the HS, and is baptized by full immersion in the water, they become one with the body of Christ.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    Fruit of the spirit is different than works..,

    You can have works without fruit, but if you truly have fruit of love, joy,peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self control...you will be lead by the Spirit to do works

    Works and fruit are not the same thing.
    They are different, but they are intimately tied together. You say that if you truly have the fruit of love, joy, peace,.......
    you will be lead by the Spirit to do works.

    So just turn that around. If you do not truly have the fruit of love, joy, peace... then you will not be lead by the Spirit to do works.

    So if you can see it, good works is the sign of whether you have the true fruit of the Spirit. Or other words would be good works are a perfect sign that you are saved through faith, because true faith always produces good works, which we were saved unto.

    Good works = Active faith and the doctrine that you are saved. No good works = dead faith and you weren't really saved in the first place.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    In Revelation 22:18 it is simply said that one should add nothing to the words of the prophecy in Revelation, and verse 19 describes that one should not take away the prophecy either. One can also read in Proverbs 30: 6 that one should do nothing to the words. This can also be read in Deuteronomy 4: 2. This can also be compared with Psalm 12: 6-7. Basically, it's about the written words of God, not just those in Revelation, but ALL of them (Deuteronomy 4:36, 5:22, Proverbs 22:21, Jeremiah 23:22, John 3:34, 5:47, 8) : 47, 14:23, 17: 8, Romans 10:18). It is said that one should not change the words of God (to do away with it, to do away with it). And in the context of revelation, only one church has kept the words of God (Revelation 3: 8).

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by benhur View Post
    In a holy scripture from the bible, Mark 16:16, Jesus tells us that in order to be saved you have to believe and be baptized. You are saying that we are saved by grace through faith. Which is it? Or is it a combination?
    Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

    *If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

    John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by benhur View Post
    Which is worse, if I boast of my good works, or you, who boasts of your humility and how you don't boast in yourself.
    You wont see me boast of anything. Again, i boast in christ.

    Twice paul said not f works lest anyone should boast, the word boast and work put together should scare you, the fact it does not should scare anyone listening to you
    dcontroversal likes this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    Nope. The Holy spirit is what separates the sheep and wolves..,,wolves can even preform miracles in Jesus name and yet Jesus will tell them to depart from Him.

    The Holy spirit changes hearts not just external actions but also internal motives.
    Have you read the parable of the sheep and the goats?

    Read Matthew 25:32-46.

    This separation is made by Jesus and it is based on good works.

    Here is the last line of that parable: 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Jesus is telling us that the righteous will have life eternal, so good works according to Jesus looks pretty necessary.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    LOL, Endoscopy, you are digging yourself deeper and deeper into FALSE DOCTRINE.

    Like these who thought their WORKS SEPARATED THE SHEEP FROM THE WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING:



    Matthew 7:21-23 (HCSB)
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
    23 Then I will announce to them, ‘
    I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
    Is Matthew 25:32-46 false doctrine?

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by benhur View Post
    I will never see faith apart from good works, because as you say: faith produces good works. And as James says, if you don't have good works, it is a sure sign that your faith is dead. They all wrap around each other.
    no, james spoke of he contrast between no faith all all, and mere believe, if one claims to have faith and does not even have one work, they are liars, their faith is dead. His fcus was on those who had a claimed faith only, not th one se who had true living faith,

    See, you focus to much on works, and basically ignore faith.
    dcontroversal likes this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by benhur View Post
    Well, according to the holy bible and Mark 16:16, the answer is 'yes'.

    One spirit = 1, One Baptism = 2 So when a person is baptized by full immersion in the HS, and is baptized by full immersion in the water, they become one with the body of Christ.
    you confused, you state one baptism, yet you posted that we d not become one until we are baptised twice, thats two baptisms not one.

    And thanks, you just proved you preach works,
    dcontroversal and NoNameMcgee like this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    If folks are in Christ, they would not be proclaiming who they are but who Christ is and living their message wi4h more than just words.

    You don't have to answer, but I wonder had have you shared Christ with another today?

    Personally I haven't but it's morning of a new day. Maybe God will show a way.
    I like that statement: Have you shared Christ with another today? Thank you.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    WORKS ARE NOT PART OF SALVATION, they are PART OF OUR LOVE.


    You HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD the Book of JAMES:


    Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
    5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
    6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
    7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.




    That verse BLOWS all your wild theories, clean out of the Water.


    Good works is a part of love. Good works is a part of faith too. Faith or love cannot stand alone or they die.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    3748. hostis, hétis, ho ti ►
    Strong's Concordance
    hostis, hétis, ho ti: whoever, anyone who
    Original Word: ὅστις, ἥτις, ὅτι
    Part of Speech: Relative Pronoun
    Transliteration: hostis, hétis, ho ti
    Phonetic Spelling: (hos'-tis)
    Short Definition: whosoever, whichsoever, whatsoever
    Definition: whosoever, whichsoever, whatsoever.

    4100. pisteuó ►
    Strong's Concordance
    pisteuó: to believe, entrust
    Original Word: πιστεύω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: pisteuó
    Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
    Short Definition: I believe, have faith in
    Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.



    many in this thread lie and say they believe this

    but they twist meanings of words

    reject actual context of verses
    and push works or the law to add to how eternal life is GIVEN to Gods children



    that is not of God
    that is actually a false religion of man
    I believe John 3:16 with all my heart. But I also believe that someone who truly believes will be the leader of those that do good works for the love of God and mankind. Belief and good works are inseparable. One follows the other in all cases, without losing focus on the cross.

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