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Thread: Not By Works

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by benhur View Post
    When one says they have faith in Jesus Christ, which all on this form have done, is that not a 'claim'? So if James is talking about those that 'claim' to have faith in Jesus, he is talking about who say they have faith in Jesus. If you say you have faith in Jesus and good works do not follow, then you never really had faith, or if you did, it is dead.

    Don't you admit that good works follow faith for everyone that claims they have faith in Christ?
    listen man, all who have faith work, a claimed faith will not save you, will not keep you saved, and will not prevent you from going to hell

    if all people who have fsith will work, then we have what we call eternal security, because true fsith works.

    the context of james was those who had no works, NOT those who had works, he did not put those of true faith in the same category of lost demons.
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by benhur View Post
    I only put boast and work together to make a point about your boasting. I have never boasted on this forum of my great works, and I never will. That is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. I may have taken your words wrong, and if I did, I apologize.
    Again, we should not be arguing about boasting, so have the last word, but I will not respond on this subject abain. We both must agree on this subject.

    You boast every time you say water baptism is required, and 5at obedience is required. Your claiming you were saved by those acts you performed.

    I pray one day you see this. I honestly do
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    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    you confused, you state one baptism, yet you posted that we d not become one until we are baptised twice, thats two baptisms not one.

    And thanks, you just proved you preach works,
    Jesus taght us that you must be born of the water and of the spirit to be saved.
    Born of the water to me = water baptism by immersion
    Borm of the spirit to me = being fully immersed by the HS

    When one does this, they become one in the body of Christ. Just like Peter says in Acts 2, when those he preached to, said, we believe, what shall we do. Peter in verse 38 is pretty specific, and it says that 3000 were added to the church that day.
    3,000 people that were water baptized and had the baptism of the spirit, were now members of the new Christian church.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Are you kidding me? There have been many people in various false religions and cults who have received water baptism because they have been taught by their church they they must be water baptized to receive salvation, yet they are not authentic believers. I've heard numerous testimonies from people who have received Christ through faith and are receiving water baptism, now as a believer, that admitted to receiving water baptism at their previous church, prior to truly receiving Christ through faith and were not genuine believers when they were previously baptized. I have that same testimony.

    I've never heard of an atheist receiving water baptism, yet there is still a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." Such people may believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ, such as He is the Son of God and His death, burial and resurrection "happened," yet they are still not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and are instead, also trusting in works for salvation.

    There is a need to mention, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned," if baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation.

    Again, general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized, but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    For the believer, Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. For the unbeliever, Christ's finished work of redemption is IN-sufficient to save, so they turn to supplements. The believer trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works.

    Believers are commanded to be water baptized after conversion (Acts 10:43-48). I received water baptism after my conversion, but I was not saved by water baptism, but by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31).

    Why would a believer refuse to be water baptized? I can't think of one believer that I know who has refused water baptism after their conversion. I don't teach believers to neglect getting water baptized, but I also don't teach baptismal regeneration.
    Seems too many forget the "Great Commission".

    Mathew 28:16 to 20 (great commission) AMPC (Amplified Classic)

    16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
    17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
    18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
    19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by VCO View Post
    Born of water is defined in the previous verse, AND remember it was a letter and the verses were not added until in 1551, Robert Estienne (a.k.a. Stephanus) added verse divisions to his fourth edition of the Greek New Testament. Therefore the the SUBJECT IN BOTH OF THE VERSES IS A COMPARISON OF NATURAL BIRTH TO SPIRITUAL BIRTH.

    John 3:5-6 (HCSB)
    5 Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
    6 Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    There you go again, ROBBING GOD OF THE GLORY FOR HIS FREE GIFT AGAIN. It is willfully SINNING to want part of the GLORY to go TO YOU, while CLIMBING into the Baptistery. Until you can come to an END OF SELF, you will not realize what you are DOING.


    Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
    5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done,
    but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
    6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
    7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
    So somehow, by me climbing into the baptistry, I am taking away from the glory of God? That sounds like the Pharisees that could not walk over X steps on the Sabbath or they broke the law.

    So did I break the law of grace by 'climbing into the baptistry'? Did I really rob Jesus of his glory by 'climbing into the baptistry'? if you think so, you are a modern Pharisee, watching over the law of grace.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by benhur View Post
    Jesus taght us that you must be born of the water and of the spirit to be saved.
    Born of the water to me = water baptism by immersion
    Borm of the spirit to me = being fully immersed by the HS

    When one does this, they become one in the body of Christ. Just like Peter says in Acts 2, when those he preached to, said, we believe, what shall we do. Peter in verse 38 is pretty specific, and it says that 3000 were added to the church that day.
    3,000 people that were water baptized and had the baptism of the spirit, were now members of the new Christian church.
    the word baptise literally means to immerse,

    so yes, you just showed two baptisms (one in water one in the holy spirit)

    eph 4 says one baptism, you need to resolve which one, it can not be both.
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Cee View Post
    I was reading some of the early church fathers and was surprised to find a lot of the early church did see this particular Scripture as water baptism. Not that they are correct, but it surprised me.
    Also because of false converts they created “penances” so that only genuine believers would follow them. Because of widespread persecution a lot of people who confessed to follow Jesus ended up folding under severe persecution, that’s one of the reasons church went in the direction it did. They wanted to ensure people genuinely believed so they added works to it. As an example Tertullian writes of one lady who bit her tongue off in torture so she wouldn’t endanger any other believers lest she lose the ability to withstand torture and deny Jesus. Reading some of their letters was quite eye opening.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cee View Post
    I was reading some of the early church fathers and was surprised to find a lot of the early church did see this particular Scripture as water baptism. Not that they are correct, but it surprised me.
    I have read the same things, and that is one of the reasons that I believe the way I do. To me the birth from your mother does not fit the definition or symbolism of full immersion water baptism. And so I believe what the church fathers said.

    That view got changed in the reformation as the reformers took a dim look at good works as proposed by the Catholic church. (there were actually some good doctrine that eminated from the Catholic church, even as corrupted as it was and is). Grace became the cry word and a lot of the NT was pretty much thrown out, except for Paul and his teachings about grace. Since being baptized was associated with a 'good work', it has come under fire from then to now as not necessary and as VCO says, actually takes away from the glory of God for 'CLIMBING' into the baptistry. It is way out of line with NY reality.

    The church fathers were right on this subject. Don't be surprised any longer.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by TruthTalk View Post
    The notion that people who do not, "boast of their works" is because they believe works are not necessary so they just float along doing nothing. What an absurd way of reasoning, to say after we are saved its all done.

    Just read a few books like A Chance to Die; The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael: Written by; Elizabeth Elliot an amazing true life legacy. She saved an untold number of young girls from a life of forced prostitution.

    True Christian's have many many works and the account of their works are written down everywhere in the public domain, but they do not boast of their works.

    God bless!
    Of course we don't.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    the word baptise literally means to immerse,

    so yes, you just showed two baptisms (one in water one in the holy spirit)

    eph 4 says one baptism, you need to resolve which one, it can not be both.
    You are making a pronouncement based on only one of the words that might be the root word for baptism. It means putting a cloth in a pot of dye. Another possible word is for washing the feet. You, behind the scenes, are basing your belief on one of two possible word that baptism comes from. You thus again behind the scenes reject the word for washing feet.

    Do you understand this?

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Endoscopy View Post
    Seems too many forget the "Great Commission".

    Mathew 28:16 to 20 (great commission) AMPC (Amplified Classic)

    16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed and made appointment with them.
    17 And when they saw Him, they fell down and worshiped Him; but some doubted.
    18 Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
    19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be).
    In Matthew 28:19-20, we have here a command of Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause, "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the text, we would assume that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation, which would further equate to salvation by works and tickle the ears of those who teach sinless perfection.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    In Matthew 28:19-20, we have here a command of Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause, "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the text, we would assume that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation, which would further equate to salvation by works and tickle the ears of those who teach sinless perfection.

    He said baptise THEM,

    ie, they were already saved disciples of God. Before they were baptised,
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    That is a failure in logic.,,,

    All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.

    All children of God will have fruit of the spirit growing in their lives. All will learn how to be more loving, joyful, patient, kind, gentle and have self control. Eventually theseinner traits of a new believer will lead to good works.

    However good works don't necessarily lead to having those inner qualities.
    My logic is the same as yours. If you truly love Jesus, you will do good works, because of the growth of the spirit in you life.
    And you are right, that eventually these inner traits of a new believer will lead to good works.

    My only descent from that is: If you were not truly immersed by the HS, and these inner traits do no develop, you will not find the sign of good works following, and you will know that you were not truly saved in the first place.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by benhur View Post
    My logic is the same as yours. If you truly love Jesus, you will do good works, because of the growth of the spirit in you life.
    And you are right, that eventually these inner traits of a new believer will lead to good works.

    My only descent from that is: If you were not truly immersed by the HS, and these inner traits do no develop, you will not find the sign of good works following, and you will know that you were not truly saved in the first place.

    I think you just explained the context of james 2. Where james asked people to test their faith to see if it was a living faith or dead faith. (Moreso directed at people who were hearers and not doers)
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    He said baptise THEM,

    ie, they were already saved disciples of God. Before they were baptised,
    Amen! You don't baptize lost unbelievers in order to make them saved disciples, but because they are saved disciples.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Hahahhahahahhahaaahhahaha 100% flawed ideology right here folks......wow.....did you get this from the creed....what about all the false religions that do many wonderful, seemingly biblical works in the name of Jesus, but they are lost and their working for dogma has no power to save......??
    Read Matthew 25:32-46 and you will have to ask Jesus if he has a flawed ideology right here folks.... wow.... this is straight out of the bible.

    Just because people feed the hungry and visit the captive, and heal the wounded, and take care of helpless, does not mean that we lose focus on the cross and Jesus. Jesus in fact tells us to do these good works to help his children make it in this often hostile world. And my take on that is if you are not willing to do these things, you will be separated from the sheep, who were willing to do these good works, with love, and you will be counted with the goats.

    Even if you protest that you have strictly kept your eye on the cross and had great trust in the promises of Jesus and that Jeus did it all for you and that you did not want to do good works for Jesus because it might make you boast, so you did not these things for the sake of Jesus. Jesus will look at you and weep, and then will separate you with the goats.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Wrong again......saved by faith alone with no embellishments to gain eternal life......and you obviously have no understanding of what Mailmandan believes....!
    I don't have to know all that he believes, I just have to take him at his words. He has said at least twice that good works accompanies faith. I believe that too. Do you not believe that?

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Man I am glad I can rest assured in Christ by faith without any working for drivel or faux law keeping rigmarole false view to gain or keep that which is already eternally given freely by grace through faith in Christ........the plenteous in number religionists on the other hand....not so.....they, in their mind, actually believe they help Jesus save themselves...hahahhahahaha what a farce!
    Does that sound similar to this: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

    Not quite, but similar.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Endoscopy View Post
    Only in your view. When I researched it years ago there were 2 words that the word baptism could have come from. One was dying cloth and the other was washing the feet. Immersion only derives from dying cloth. Pouring and sprinkling come from washing the feet. This is the reason many gospel teaching denominations adhere to sprinkling and pouring.
    You know my belief now, and I know yours, so I will not respond again in regard to this subject. Thanks for the information, it is interesting. Don't count me out, but on this subject we will have to agree to disagree.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Remember this person claims he does not teach works, yet he adds the work of man in water baptism in salvation, (and thereby rejects the work of God in spirit baprism)

    he also pretymuch damns everyone in the OT who did not get baptised to hell, since jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, his gospel has always been grace through faith, not works. ,
    I did not add the works of man. I added wjat Jesus said to add, remember what he said: those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Now I agree that Jesus was a man, but not your ordinary garden variety man.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Are you kidding me? There have been many people in various false religions and cults who have received water baptism because they have been taught by their church they they must be water baptized to receive salvation, yet they are not authentic believers. I've heard numerous testimonies from people who have received Christ through faith and are receiving water baptism, now as a believer, that admitted to receiving water baptism at their previous church, prior to truly receiving Christ through faith and were not genuine believers when they were previously baptized. I have that same testimony.

    I've never heard of an atheist receiving water baptism, yet there is still a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." Such people may believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ, such as He is the Son of God and His death, burial and resurrection "happened," yet they are still not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and are instead, also trusting in works for salvation.

    There is a need to mention, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned," if baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation.

    Again, general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized, but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    For the believer, Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. For the unbeliever, Christ's finished work of redemption is IN-sufficient to save, so they turn to supplements. The believer trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works.

    Believers are commanded to be water baptized after conversion (Acts 10:43-48). I received water baptism after my conversion, but I was not saved by water baptism, but by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31).

    Why would a believer refuse to be water baptized? I can't think of one believer that I know who has refused water baptism after their conversion. I don't teach believers to neglect getting water baptized, but I also don't teach baptismal regeneration.
    I still believe Jesus's simple words: whoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved....

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