Not By Works

PeterJens · May 16, 2017

gb9 said:

Amen, praise the Lord.
Obeying the commandments are not for me like a check list, but I search to love
in the things I do, and as God convicts so I repent and get right on that issue.

And in all things I desire to speak the truth. And we walk in the righteousness
and cleansing Christ pours into our lives. May we all walk in this every day and
in all we do, realising He has made us His children to the Praise of His glorious
name.
[video=youtube;lKM-8CZRplI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKM-8CZRplI&index=2&list=RDnQWFzMvCfLE[/video]

PeterJens · May 16, 2017

Ariel82 said:

A side topic, but why to regard Irenaeus a heretic. I cannot find any specific
thing pointing to this. He argued against gnosticism, so does this mean you
accept some of the ideas in gnosticism?

PeterJens · May 16, 2017

gb9 said:

You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2:10

Was Paul walking pleasingly before God?
What I am saying and believe God is calling us to is to walk like Paul walked as he
followed Christ.

The problem with unbelief that the cross brings life through the Spirit, is what is
the point of walking in the ways of Jesus, if all are compromised. Your theology
implies one small failure, you fail in everything. Jesus calls us to grow into the
vision we have of him, though we stumble and it takes time, this is the path.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Eph 1:4

Does this not speak to your heart? This is Gods word, not mine.

gb9 · May 16, 2017

PeterJens said:

it is not a point of view peter, it is REALITY. you see, since God is all knowing, why would I attempt to deceive and convince him that I walk the walk, and do not sin, or hardly ever sin, while this is NOT TRUE.

yes, the Bible speaks to my heart. but, I also speak truth to myself, and to God. the truth for all of us is , we all still miss the mark, not meet the standards, know to do good and do it in every moment of the day. I just tell the truth about it. you refuse to see truth. that is on you.

Desertsrose · May 16, 2017

FranC said:

Hi Fran,

Actually the scriptures being God's word make that call.

As Dan said and he's quoting scripture, there's only one way and that one way to our Heavenly Father is through His Son, Jesus Christ who's name means salvation.

Surely you realize this.

It would be difficult for me to believe that after you went through numerous posts stressing obedience for salvation and quoting those scriptures to prove your point, that you would believe that a person who doesn't obey God by believing on His Son could be saved from hell.

The religions of the world don't read God's word so how could they obey Him by following another false god? Allah, Buddha, Krishna etc. There are 8747 different gods of this world.

Anyone who worships another God besides Jesus can't be saved. They can if they repent of their sins and accept the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob as their God through faith in Jesus who is the only way to the Father.

I'm curious to hear how you think that people from other religions can be saved???

Ariel82 · May 16, 2017

FranC said:

Nope they are going to hell because they are sinners who don't repent and turn to God and His salvation through faith in Christ atoning work on the cross and His sanctifying work on our lives via the Holy Spirit.

PeterJens · May 16, 2017

gb9 said:

"do it in every moment of the day" this is a statement of faith of failure or inability.
So you do not believe Paul was actually being "holy, righteous and blameless"

You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed.
1 Thess 2:10

Trying to say God is saying something different than Paul is clearly saying
is pointless. You need to answer Pauls comment about himself.

Now ofcourse you are saying you do not agree with my faith position.
Going the next step is not good, because unless you know someone you
cannot say what they are or are not doing.

You are still condemning yourself on not doing the good you should be doing.
I know the prison of your own creating, but I cannot free you, you have made it.

gb9 · May 16, 2017

PeterJens said:

in 1st Thessalonians 2, Paul was talking about not being a burden to the Thessalonians financially. most translations say " toward you" a few say " among you". but Paul was NOT talking about being blameless before God.

not using any context , mis-applying verses, refusing to admit truth ( that no one is sinless ).

one of us seems to be in prison, thinking ( wrongfully) that they do no wrong. one freely admits that they are not perfect. one of these is true. Jesus said the truth sets us free.

FranC · May 16, 2017

Seohce said:

blue_ladybug said:

Hi Seohce,

When I say that works do not save us, I am talking about PHYSICAL works. Like mowing a neighbor's lawn or shoveling their driveway, making a dinner and taking it to a home-bound person, etc etc.. Those things ARE nice, but they will not save us.

Now, on the flip side of that, I believe that *some* of our SPIRITUAL works don't save us, either. For example, praying does not get us saved. Nor does it keep us saved, and it won't get us into heaven. And reading our bibles, that doesn't save us either. Words on a page in a book don't save us. Attending church doesn't save us, either. Singing hymns and listening to a sermon does not save us. They may help us in our spiritual walk, but they don't having saving power.

What DOES save us is our faith and belief in Jesus.

And through that faith and belief, He grants us His grace. So there it is in a nut shell. Grace, faith, belief. THESE things are what saves us, they are what keeps us saved, and they are what will get us into heaven.

[/QUOTE

This is a Christian Forum and i suppose that mostly on this forum are Christians who believe in God and our Lord Jesus and therefore have FAITH. I'm a believer of the truth in Christ, in the word of truth which is the Gospel of our salvation.

Reading from romans 10:8-17, can i just ask you your opinion or view on this: If there are no workers or servants of God (refering to those in the church or the body of Christ)(1cor ch 12, eph 4:11-13 & 5:23, 1cor 3:9 etc.)would you and i have faith and therefore be saved?

Were you saved without anybody preaching to you the truth of the Gospel?

Do you not consider your purpose of discussing the bible with other believers a good work that may bring salvation to those you are discussing with and those that are just reading along?(1 tim 4:16).

Are we not to serve our God should we get into heaven or the new Jerusalem Just asking for your thought on these things because i really don't like to argue. Thanks.

I don't like to argue either Seohce, but when someone changes Christianity to suit their needs, I think it's important to speak up.
There are people reading along here who do not even understand what's going on, unless they're maature Christians, such as yourself.

John 13:35 is a verse we should all read.
Jesus would be proud.

blue_ladybug · May 16, 2017

No one is changing Christianity. The simple truth is, and there is NO proof in the bible to the contrary, the truth is that works DO NOT KEEP US SAVED.. You'd be wise to read the verse where Jesus says, "for your FAITH has saved you"..

FranC said:

FranC · May 16, 2017

PennEd said:

Did you happen to read Romans 1:19-20 ?

What do you think it means?
Please exegete.

FranC · May 16, 2017

gb9 said:

gb9

Could you please post the verse in Acts 5? That would be a good start.

Also, could you please exegete that verse instead of just posting it?

And, instead of throwing verses back and forth as you yourself have said is of no value,

why not do some hermeneutics on the verses PeterJens has posted? (post no. 8011)

They don't suit you, do they?

blue_ladybug · May 16, 2017

Now see, you're assuming.. I NEVER said that there are no workers or servants of God in the church or body of Christ. I SAID that our works do not save us.

That being said, if someone told us about God and we believed and got saved, I would consider that to be more of a miracle, rather than a personal work.

Now here's a question to ponder: does the person who brought us to God, get to keep his salvation because he did a marvelous work?

As to the question of if I was saved without someone preaching the gospel to me, NO obviously I wasn't because if I hadn't ever gone to church all my life, then to a Christian high school, I probably wouldn't know much about God, who He is and what He's done for me.

I can only HOPE that my discussing the bible with others here, may draw them closer to God. Do I consider it a good work? Yes, but only because God is working through me.

I couldn't do it on my own otherwise. Do I think that this good work of discussing the bible will keep me saved? Absolutely not. WORKS don't keep us saved. Faith in Jesus Christ does.

That seems to be a difficult concept for some here to grasp, however. :/

As for heaven and the new earth, obviously I have no idea what we'll be doing there, so I can't really answer that question except to say, that yes, I think we WILL be serving God there, by praising Him.

Seohce said:

gb9 · May 16, 2017

FranC said:

people can read Acts 5 for themselves, if they want. and no, I do not dis-agree with the definitions of obey in # 8011.

2 things- Scripture does not contradict, it complements. plucking out verses and applying meaning to them that do not have is wrong.as for mr jens,see my post #8028 for what I think of his wrong application of Scripture.

PeterJens · May 16, 2017

gb9 said:

gb9 - Ofcourse you can say Paul is not saying be blameless, Holy, pure

But here he is talking to Timothy

Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2 Tim 2:22

He has saved us and called us to a holy life
2 Tim 1:9

Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing.
1 Tim 2:8

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7

But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation
Col 1:22

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
Col 3:12

God washed cleansed, righteous people are HOLY.
Believe what Christ has done through the cross and walk in it.

You can blind yourself to Paul and him shouting Christ has cleansed you, walk in it.

PeterJens · May 16, 2017

Failure is always the easiest position to take.
Failure is the majority position because any time you set a mark, if it
is difficult or something few can achieve, then doing nothing will always lead to failure.

So the question is always to ask what is fulfillment and can one as an individual reach this
place.

So I started with John in revelations saying those who are Holy should stay Holy.
So it made me ask, who is Holy? What is Gods view of being Holy, and why did Pauls view
of the churches drop off so quickly in later church discussions.

It is obvious, Paul saw what Holiness in Gods people truly is. We are too harsh on both
ourselves and others. In conversations here it is so obvious. Good righteous people are
continually made to feel guilty because of caution, reticence, empathy and concern for
others, rather than being praised for their sensitivity, they feel failures, when truly they
often are a witness to Gods work in their hearts, to His glory.

PeterJens · May 16, 2017

An observation

Much of scripture in the past did not speak to me because in my mind I wrote
off a lot of Pauls language to religious language.

A for instance, "in Christs sight we are blameless."
Now if you say all are seen as Christ in faith, saying believers are Holy, pure,
blameless you see it is true because it is just saying this is Christ.

If Paul is meaning they are literally Holy, pure, blameless, he is repeating it time
and again to emphasis in Christ we have righteousness, we can literally walk as
he walked as Paul walked like Jesus. Paul knew the apostles, they knew his life
and teaching, they equally say similar things. It is only our unbelief saying surely
this cannot be, we fail so often, we compromise so easily.

But this is what Paul is saying. He talks to sinning christians and rebukes them
and then returns in joy knowing they repented and sorted themselves out.
And Paul calls them the Holy people of God. Do you have the faith to know who
God calls you, brothers and sisters. Learn to see yourself as God sees you and
loves you, for He is less hard than you are, and much more understanding.

BillG · May 16, 2017

This popped in my mailbox today.

Just thought I would share it.

Throughout this entire letter to the Galatians, Paul has emphasized the importance of God’s grace, freely given, appropriated by faith alone. He warns against those who would hold up the Old Testament Law as a standard one must behaviorally achieve to be accepted by God. The law is important as a schoolmaster, showing us the best way to live. The law is important in corralling us and our sinful nature to be able to live with each other in some degree of harmony. Paul wants to make it very clear that you and I cannot save ourselves by obedience to the law. In fact, it is impossible to fully obey the law.

That is why Advent is so important to us. For in these weeks we focus with intensity on the coming of Emmanuel, God with Us, in the human form of a baby who grows up to not just set a good example, but to literally die, bearing our sins on the Cross. Through His atoning work, the resurrected Christ offers you and me God’s grace, His unmerited favor, providing us eternal life, God-quality life for this life and for the life to come. Don’t let anyone give a list of all the hoops you have to jump through to merit God’s favor. Our good works, our righteous works, are the spinoff of the life that has received the gift of salvation. We then, with the Holy Spirit in our lives, grow the fruit of the Spirit, which captures the very essence of the Law.

Paul has stated it in Galatians 5:14: “The entire law is summed up in a single command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'”
Once we have captured the essence of this teaching, we are able to distinguish between the downward spiral of a life lived motivated by the sinful nature and a life lived motivated by the Holy Spirit, bearing the fruit of the Spirit in our lives. Today’s text basically preaches itself as we see what the law of love looks like in the life of a believer. This is an exciting, liberating challenge, a kind of checklist to see how you and I are doing, not in earning God’s favor but living vital, productive lives as followers of Jesus.

followjesus · May 16, 2017

FranC said:

Pauls language is quite confusing, if you look in romans 7-8 he talks of different Laws. The Law of moses is a witness against sinners, as God tells moses, as moses tells the people. the Book of the Law is very different from the Gospel, the ten commandments fit perfectly into both. there is no condemnation in the ten commandments they are simply Gods Moral standard. for instance if we Love, we will not lie, nor kill, nor bear false witness, nor commit adultery ect. those 10 commandments outline what Love looks like only from the perspective of sinners, so they appear as " thou shalt not Lie"..thou shalt not steal" "thou shalt not" because they were given at that time to sinners who had in thier nature to do those things.

The book of the Law is ful of the sacrificial Laws for atonement, fellowship with God, cleansing rites ect . it is also full of the commands to have no mercy on the person who sins among Gods Holy people, in order to "purge the sin from among them" The gospel is how to purge sin from ourselves, and directs us quite opposite from the book of the Law. were are clean because of the words of Jesus when we take them, so cleansing rites are old and usless. Our sacrificial Law is met by the cross and blood of Jesus, rather than an altar and the blood of animals, so sacrificing an animal Has no value and now is simply cruel. Our priesthood is fulfilled in Jesus who is the High preist eternal, so all of the priesthood laws in the book are fulfilled by Jesus. this is an example of what i mean regarding the Law being different from the gospel.

The Law is VERY useful to understanding what Jesus accomplished for us in every way, it is good right and true, but the book of the mosaic Law is not at all what Governs us. the book of the Law of moses witnesses against sinners, while Jesus witnesses for us, or is our "advocate" with God. He is Quite opposite in purpose and structure from the mosaic Law. we find Great use for the Law itself in understanding The Gospel, such as in the new testament sexual immorality is forbidden, yet it doesnt outline what sexual morality actually means as far as actions, the Law does this by explaining what is sexually un moral such as " sleeping with our brothers wife, our sons wife, and the many details in that section of the Law.

we need to study and Know the Law, in order to really understand the gospel, but the gospel is our perfect Law that Gives frrdom or " the Law of Christ" or " the Law of the spirit" in romans 7 paul highlights the Law of sin that is working against Him that is within His body, arousing sin unto death" He speaks of dying to the mosaic Law, and He also talks of the Law of the spirit of Life. there are different Laws He is explaining. the ten commandments remain forever because they are taught by Jesus in different words and from a different perspective. the gospel isnt a testimony against sinners, but rather it calls sinners to repentance through belief and obedience that comes from that belief in Jesus and His word.

i find it interesting that just before Moses dies, God says to place the book of the Law next to the ark as a witness against them, the ark is where Gods glory dwelt. and in the Gospel the "word" of God Jesus is seated at Gods right Hand as our advocate rather than a witness against us. i find that the book of the Law, and the gospel is contrary One a law for the flesh that is sinful by nature, the Other an advocate for those who follow the spirit. the Book of the Law placed beside the ark testifies against the people according to the commandments within the ark. Those tablets of stone were written By Gods finger, as where the book is written by Moses given to rebels.

if we try to remove the Law of Christ ( The 4 gospels) and call it the law of moses as many do, it removes the Only thing that transforms us from continuos rebels, to those who Our made in His image through faithfullness to the one in whom we believe. sorry so many words here i hope it makes sense

FranC · May 16, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

People say that slanderously I do not obey nor believe the words of Jesus because I want to do what HE said to do.

1. No one can pluck you out of Jesus' hands. BUT you can walk out of YOUR OWN FREE WILL.
Don't you believe you HAVE free will?

2. God never loses anyone. He's here to gather, not to lose. As long as you STAY with Him, you will not be lost.

3. God will never leave you nor forsake you. What kind of a God would He be? YOU can leave HIM though.

Your last verse uses the word BELIEVE. No one here wants to say what it means. Because it doesn't suit what you post.
It would ruin everything you say.

And how about answering some of my verses every now and then instead of throwing out new ones?
They're not easy to answer, are they? They tell the truth.

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