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Thread: Not By Works

  1. #8761
    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Katy-follower View Post
    Reaching for the hand of the blind man, before he falls off the cliff...
    Absolutely........

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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    So you're answer is NO.
    We are NOT to do works.

    Then why did JESUS say this:

    John 15:14-15 Amplified Bible (AMP)

    14 You are my friends if you keep on doing what I command you.
    Can you answer or reference someone without embellishing and twisting what they say into an obvious lie....he has stated numerous time that saved people will have works and fruit....and like All that believe the truth he rightfully concludes that WORKS DO NOT SAVE OR KEEP SAVED....WOW...!!!!
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Can you answer or reference someone without embellishing and twisting what they say into an obvious lie....he has stated numerous time that saved people will have works and fruit....and like All that believe the truth he rightfully concludes that WORKS DO NOT SAVE OR KEEP SAVED....WOW...!!!!
    I like your style, defame others before the have a chance to respond.
    Works are irrelevant, so if you got assaulted by a brother you would forgive
    them and forget about it? Or if a sister became a prostitute, no problems, there
    heart was in the right place.

    You do not know the kingdom if you cannot uphold Gods will and call evil evil
    acts. Lawlessness has always been the enemy of the kingdom, but maybe one
    day you will see. I fear the hatred felt against people in their past will destroy their
    souls, and they will not know it.
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    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Senior Member PeterJens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    I am fascinated by peoples desire to find security in doctrines and not in communion with the Lord, or
    learning to love and be a vessel of Gods gifts to others. It is like beliefs secure ones place and not
    the Holy Spirit working in and through ones life.


    In the kingdom of heaven, how would people who knew all the theory but none of the outworking be
    of any use. Sinners are failed flawed people who continually get it wrong. How has belief made any
    difference to them, or God would regard it with any significance.
    FranC likes this.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    When I was a new believer, I thought I choose Jesus.
    .As I walked with God and His Holy spirit, He showed me how He chose me,..it just took me a while to accept His love for me and see how He worked in my life.

    The real question is: do you have a personal relationship with God?

    Does His Holy spirit tell you that you are His beloved child?

    Have you accepted Jesus as Your personal savior?

    Do you have a biblical view of who God is and what He expects from His children?
    Jesus chose us, because He knew we would choose Him.

    Jesus is not going to chose people who will hate and reject Him, rebel and walk in sin.
    Jesus chose us, because He knew we would be His chosen bride, a people purchased at
    great price, who would appreciate His love and grace to us, who would roar in praise and
    worship to the throne because He is worthy

    Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!
    Rev 5:12
    FranC and Seohce like this.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Senior Member NoNameMcgee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    this thread is more hostile and silly than it is helpful at this point .... heres a question for the cake takers (works earn salvation)
    AND those who believe they have fire insurance... a lets sin get out of hell free card (faith without works)


    if it dont apply let it fly
    this aint for true lovers of God


    if you have faith
    which creates works in you
    someone spikes your water with drugs
    leaves you open to demonic influence, so much so you fall into fornication with a vile woman or man who offends you to the point you push them...
    they fall crack their head and die
    you go to run but not being sober lose your footing fall and die too (crazy scenerio i know i know)

    where do you go?

    heaven or hell
    Last edited by NoNameMcgee; 1 Week Ago at 06:10 AM.

  7. #8767
    Senior Member PeterJens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    I have seen the argument if people can lose salvation after gaining faith, is
    that not making mans choice more powerful than Gods authority?

    And the answer is no, because God himself has given us the choice.
    The parable of the prodigal son is the son is free to leave.
    All of Jesus's parables, peoples responses are theirs freely given and taken.

    To walk in love is to know this freedom. God is calling us to be His people who
    are like Him. To be like Him you have to love Him with all that you are, to become
    one with Him in thought word and deed. This is not possible if you choose to leave,
    because this very act testifies to ones choice and ones heart.

    To know Gods heart and His objective is to know what salvation means.
    Innate within it all, is the ability to love and choose freely how to express this.
    Our King chose death to give us life.

    Are we going to choose death(sin) so that then he will force us to accept life,
    when that denies the very nature of salvation and love itself?

    To those who doubt Jesus's words and heart spend time at the foot of the cross,
    and wonder what drove Him there.

    This is the key to all that follows.
    Seohce likes this.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

  8. #8768
    Senior Member FranC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Can you answer or reference someone without embellishing and twisting what they say into an obvious lie....he has stated numerous time that saved people will have works and fruit....and like All that believe the truth he rightfully concludes that WORKS DO NOT SAVE OR KEEP SAVED....WOW...!!!!
    You see Dcon,
    here's your problem.
    You've become like a parrot --- you just keep repeating the same stuff over and over again.
    But do not supply any substance.
    I felt it was important to say this...

    Here's my post to which you're replying:

    Originally Posted by FranC View Post

    So you're answer is NO.
    We are NOT to do works.

    Then why did JESUS say this:

    John 15:14-15 Amplified Bible (AMP)

    14 You are my friends if you keep on doing what I command you.


    Now read your reply to me.

    I don't hear Jesus saying anything about salvation.
    I don't believe He ever said that word once. Could you post if He did?

    What He DID say was how we are to BEHAVE (haven't seen much good behavior here by a few)
    And how we are to DO (which means works)

    Mathew 5:2-10
    Mathew 5:2-11
    Mathew 6:48
    Mathew 7:5
    Mathew 7:21
    Mathew 7.24
    Mathew 15:11
    Mathew 19:28
    Mathew 22:21
    Mathew 22:37-40
    Mathew 25:35-36

    Jesus said:
    IF YOU KEEP ON DOING WHAT I COMMANDED YOU.

    This is a command. Not a request.
    It means if you don't do it.... Jesus will not be too pleased.

    You should read those verses.



    Seohce likes this.
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    Senior Member PeterJens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    this thread is more hostile and silly than it is helpful at this point .... heres a question for the cake takers (works earn salvation)
    AND those who believe they have fire insurance... a lets sin get out of hell free card (faith without works)


    if it dont apply let it fly
    this aint for true lovers of God


    if you have faith
    which creates works in you
    someone spikes your water with drugs
    leaves you open to demonic influence, so much so you fall into fornication with a vile woman or man who offends you to the point you push them...
    they fall crack their head and die
    you go to run but not being sober lose your footing fall and die too (crazy scenerio i know i know)

    where do you go?

    heaven or hell
    I like your analogy.
    Who is God and what is His judgement like?

    Are we in love with Christ because we are going to heaven or because He is God and
    His nature is to love in justice and righteousness?

    Jesus asked us to pray
    "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"

    We are always in the Fathers hands, and things could always go wrong.
    Everything is about our daily walk in the Holy Spirit, because we only get to the
    end of the walk one day at a time.

    But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
    Matt 6:33-34
    Seohce likes this.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

  10. #8770
    Senior Member NoNameMcgee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterJens View Post
    I like your analogy.
    Who is God and what is His judgement like?

    Are we in love with Christ because we are going to heaven or because He is God and
    His nature is to love in justice and righteousness?

    Jesus asked us to pray
    "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"

    We are always in the Fathers hands, and things could always go wrong.
    Everything is about our daily walk in the Holy Spirit, because we only get to the
    end of the walk one day at a time.

    But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
    Matt 6:33-34
    haha ty sir

    i think you see the point behind the question

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    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Grace vs. works has been a debate for centuries. It’s not surprising that prideful man feels compelled to earn salvation on the basis of works, not by grace. The Council of Trent on Justification (Canon 12) states: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy [grace], which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence [faith] alone that justifies us, let him be anathema [cursed]." This infers that we merit grace and eternal life only through sacrificial works.

    In Islam, the Muslim attains forgiveness through Allah's favor and works: "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9). Only by good works outweighing bad works and by the will of Allah can a Muslim be forgiven his sins and gain access to his paradise. "Then those whose balance [of good deeds] is heavy, they will be successful. But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in hell will they abide" (Qur’an 23:102-103).


    Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5). Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Paul never shunned hard work. He even referred to the work of the ministry. Paul experienced incredible visions, revelations, and special demonstrations of power as he worked hard in serving God. Yet he proclaimed, "But whatever I am now, it is all because God poured out his special favor [grace] on me...For I have worked harder than all the other apostles, yet it was not I but God who was working through me by his grace” (1 Corinthians 15:10).
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Senior Member FranC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    this thread is more hostile and silly than it is helpful at this point .... heres a question for the cake takers (works earn salvation)
    AND those who believe they have fire insurance... a lets sin get out of hell free card (faith without works)


    if it dont apply let it fly
    this aint for true lovers of God


    if you have faith
    which creates works in you
    someone spikes your water with drugs
    leaves you open to demonic influence, so much so you fall into fornication with a vile woman or man who offends you to the point you push them...
    they fall crack their head and die
    you go to run but not being sober lose your footing fall and die too (crazy scenerio i know i know)

    where do you go?

    heaven or hell
    Easy.
    Heaven.
    it sounds as though nothing was done intentionally.
    But I do like to leave judging souls to God.
    We can only judge actions.
    Seohce likes this.
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    haha ty sir

    i think you see the point behind the question
    just realized this may be read both ways

    i meant what i said in a good way
    PeterJens likes this.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Grace vs. works has been a debate for centuries. It’s not surprising that prideful man feels compelled to earn salvation on the basis of works, not by grace. The Council of Trent on Justification (Canon 12) states: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy [grace], which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence [faith] alone that justifies us, let him be anathema [cursed]." This infers that we merit grace and eternal life only through sacrificial works.

    In Islam, the Muslim attains forgiveness through Allah's favor and works: "To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9). Only by good works outweighing bad works and by the will of Allah can a Muslim be forgiven his sins and gain access to his paradise. "Then those whose balance [of good deeds] is heavy, they will be successful. But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in hell will they abide" (Qur’an 23:102-103).


    Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5). Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Paul never shunned hard work. He even referred to the work of the ministry. Paul experienced incredible visions, revelations, and special demonstrations of power as he worked hard in serving God. Yet he proclaimed, "But whatever I am now, it is all because God poured out his special favor [grace] on me...For I have worked harder than all the other apostles, yet it was not I but God who was working through me by his grace” (1 Corinthians 15:10).
    Well said mailmandan! ( sorry - couldn't rep you )

    All religions - including the religion of Christianity ( as there is a religion like this that tries to mimic the life of Christ ) - are really manifesting that they are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which has been set lose in this earth by Adam's transgression.

    They are basing their life on what they do or don't do. They are attempting to establish their own righteousness by what they do or don't do. Good works are an example of this.

    We see the "descriptions" in the words and actions of Jesus and in the epistles of what the true Christian life looks like when Christ's life and His fruit are being manifested. The religion of Christianity then takes these "descriptions" and tries to "dictate" to the believers the life of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit into being.

    In essence they are trying to mimic or duplicate the life and fruit of Christ and at the same time "demanding" that others do the same thing or else they are not saved. The true Christian life is Christ Himself joined as one spirit with us manifesting His love, His grace, His life in and through us. It is His fruit - without Him we can do nothing.

    All works-based - works-righteousness belief systems ( including the religion of Christianity ) have this as their core essence and it really nullifies the true grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

    This is the "why" behind when people say we must do "good works". That is what the fruit brings behind the work-for-salvation mindset and to maintain and create righteousness.

    The reality is - as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ will manifest itself in the doing of good works as the fruit of being in union with Him.

    We do good works because it is a fruit of being in union with Christ. Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what already is within them - which is Christ in us - the hope of glory.
    Last edited by Grace777x70; 1 Week Ago at 07:26 AM.
    gb9, mailmandan and graceNpeace like this.
    The new man in Christ - the new creation that is created in righteousness and

    holiness hears the heart voice of the Spirit and not an old head noise of the letter

    of the word. The Pharisees knew "bible knowledge" but they did not

    know God's heart and so they erred in really understanding what the

    scriptures were saying.


    The Lord wants us to look through His eyes and to live from His heart towards

    people, towards Him and towards ourselves as well.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterJens View Post
    Jesus chose us, because He knew we would choose Him.
    Do you have scripture on this?
    Psalm 12:6 KJV
    The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    ~The Council of Trent - Session 6~


    Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.
    1 Corinthians 3
    11For no one can lay a foundation other than...Jesus Christ
    14If the work that anyone has built ..survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by KJV1611 View Post
    Do you have scripture on this?
    You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
    John 15:16

    I chose you .... so that you might bear fruit.

    We are chosen because we will bear fruit, not because we will fail and be
    a disaster.

    But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
    1 Cor 1:27

    We are chosen to shame the wise, the weak to shame the strong

    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
    Eph 1:4

    We are chosen to be holy and blameless.

    He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
    James 1:18

    We are the firstfruits, His success in the world of men.
    Seohce likes this.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    ~The Council of Trent - Session 6~


    CHAPTER XI.
    On keeping the Commandments, and on the necessity and possibility thereof.
    But no one, how much soever justified, ought to think himself exempt from the observance of the commandments; no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema,-that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified. For God commands not impossibilities, but, by commanding, both admonishes thee to do what thou are able, and to pray for what thou art not able (to do), and aids thee that thou mayest be able; whose commandments are not heavy; whose yoke is sweet and whose burthen light. For, whoso are the sons of God, love Christ; but they who love him, keep his commandments, as Himself testifies; which, assuredly, with the divine help, they can do. For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, not therefore do they cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses, is both humble and true. And for this cause, the just themselves ought to feel themselves the more obligated to walk in the way of justice, in that, being already freed from sins, but made servants of God, they are able, living soberly, justly, and godly, to proceed onwards through Jesus Christ, by whom they have had access unto this grace.
    For God forsakes not those who have been once justified by His grace, unless he be first forsaken by them. Wherefore, no one ought to flatter himself up with faith alone, fancying that by faith alone he is made an heir, and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ, that so he may be also glorified with him. For even Christ Himself, as the Apostle saith, Whereas he was the son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered, and being consummated, he became, to all who obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. For which cause the same Apostle admonishes the justified, saying; Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection; lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a cast-away. So also the prince of the apostles, Peter; Labour the more that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing those things, you shall not sin at any time

    ****
    For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace, as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish. Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations, in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God's grace, obedient to the Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.
    1 Corinthians 3
    11For no one can lay a foundation other than...Jesus Christ
    14If the work that anyone has built ..survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

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    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    Many Catholics will admit that they hope to be saved by living a good life. They seek to obey the commandments, participate in the sacraments, go to church, do penance and give alms, recite prayers and so on, in order to obtain salvation. In it's official writings, the Catholic Church teaches that faith is important; but it also insists on the necessity of good works to merit eternal life. Please read carefully the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:

    Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema.

    Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

    Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

    Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

    Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

    Official Roman Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself saved by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is the Roman Catholic version of salvation by faith (their version of faith) and works.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterJens View Post
    You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
    John 15:16

    I chose you .... so that you might bear fruit.

    We are chosen because we will bear fruit, not because we will fail and be
    a disaster.

    But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
    1 Cor 1:27

    We are chosen to shame the wise, the weak to shame the strong

    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
    Eph 1:4

    We are chosen to be holy and blameless.

    He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
    James 1:18

    We are the firstfruits, His success in the world of men.
    God choose us and made us willing and able to do those things.

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