Not By Works

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Ariel82

Guest
#9,501
#9,501
NoNameMcgee said:
What is God saying here.....


i may have been wrong to argue

i wont deny the power of God


but it is definitely wrong

my way of going about this


im sorry to everyone here that read my words

and ill listen more than speak from this point out
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It's not saying that you need to shut up and not speak.

It is saying that following the Holy Spirit is more important than a list of laws.

God teaches you personally what He wants you to do and mean through His word.

Questions are always good. That is how we learn.

If we stop learning and asking questions about the world around us, then we have issues.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9,502
#9,502
gb9 said:
the lie is that a person can be perfect and sinless in the flesh. that is a LIE. you do NOT have to be perfect and sinless to be saved. no one is.

anyone who says or refuses to admit that they are not perfect are liars. and liars are sinners.

we are saved by grace through faith for good works. not by being sinless. jump on the truth train.
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Justified (declared righteous) I am perfect in standing with God

I am not perfect (sinless) in my life however. My sanctification is ongoing.

If perfect sanctification is required to be saved, No one will be saved..
 
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garee

Banned
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Mar 28, 2016
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#9,503
FranC said:
BUT IT IS KEPT BY WORKS.

( I have such a dry mouth)
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Whose faith according to those works? What if some believe not (no faith)and ignore the kind of works you are suggesting.

Will it make the faith of God without effect as it works in us to both will and do His good pleasure?(imputed righteousness)

So yes according to the belief (faith) of Christ, it was not without all the works necessary to be the just one, By that one work of His faith he can be the one justifier of it .If it was not according to His labor of love no man could please the father. It is by his work of faith in which we are justified .We are not justified by the imaginations of our own hearts as the human (dead) source of faith (the unseen).When it comes to spirutl matters no person can see past the tip of thier own nose. Get the person's faith correct the work follows.... .We can believe God, not seen

We know He cannot lie or go back on His promises that lead us onward with a “living hope” of receiving our new incorruptible bodies. For who would hope for something we already have (a new body).

Either Christ, the Holy anointing Spirit of God is a person’s confidence or they have their own confidence in respect to some work they could do as a sign to their own selves they have believed (faith). Which in the end of the matter would be to blaspheme His Holy name by having what he believed ( the faith of Chrsit) in respect to their own selves. They have ha received the reward of the flesh, pride .

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9,504
#9,504
FranC said:
English does seem to be a problem on this thread.

Let's see:

If I CAN BE POSITIONALLY SANCTIFIED in Christ...

WHY can I not be POSITIONALLY PERFECT in Christ...
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You are.... By Position of being "In Christ"

Does this POSITIONALLY idea work only for some concepts and not Others?

I hate to start a brand new concept some here never bring up,

but, actually, in God's eyes we ARE perfect!

Could I have an amen on this?
Could I have some scripture on this since everyone here is so knowledgeable?
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It works for all.

Positional sanctification is not the same as "Conditional" sanctification however.. that is where people get messed up..
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#9,505
#9,505
" I would honestly say what do you not like?"

That you don't make a distinction between justification and sanctification and conflagate the two.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#9,506
#9,506
FranC said:
But then why are you posting something that tells us about how we live...

Instead of how we get saved...?
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Justification is more than a one time event.,,, It also effects how we live and our motives.

If we understand justification then we don't do good works to earn salvation but because it is the fruit of being justified and sanctified by Christ work and righteousness.
 
G

garee

Banned
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Mar 28, 2016
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This makes me laugh Ariel.
It is obvious we are talking about both sanctification and justification.
You cannot talk about one without the other, because one is about how in faith we are
looked at, as being righteous despite our flaws and failings and how we are being
sanctified into the likeness of Christ as we walk with Him.
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Its all one work of one faith, Christ's as the same spirit of faith according to it is wriiten .One faith.... His towards us. Not our dead faith, dead works, towards Him

That would blaspheme the Holy Name by which we are called. We are not to contribute His work of faith that works in us, in respect to our own selves.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, "and" the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
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Nov 22, 2015
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#9,508
BillG said:
That reminds of an incident many years ago.

My wife asked me if the dress she was wearing made her look fat.

Without thinking I replied "No it's all the chocolate and cake you eat that does that"

I soon saw the errors of my ways. 3 days later my left blackened eye started to open up and the right one the following day.
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LOL..It started with Adam and Eve.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#9,510
#9,510
Size 0 is skinny

Don't know what size is "fat"

Bigger than 3x?
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

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Feb 24, 2015
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#9,512
Ariel82 said:
" I would honestly say what do you not like?"

That you don't make a distinction between justification and sanctification and conflagate the two.
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I apologize for not distinguishing concepts in the way I express myself.
In my own thinking I have not clearly worked out how faith justifies and purifies us
from sin, when we may not yet resolved various issues in our hearts.

I perceive a living faith means the issues will resolve when we see Christ face to face.
Now without this resolution, one does end up locked in sinless perfectionism, because
sin will be counted against you. Certainly Jesus is implying this talking about if you are caught
in sin by a part of your body, resolution by removing that part is a solution. I regard this
is just an extreme example, because sin is in the desire of the hearts and its expression, and
removal of limbs does not change the way of the heart. But it demonstrates the seriousness
of sin and behaviour and we have no reason to compromise.

And the theology is less important to me than the road we travel, and how we travel along.
We are justified because we desire to be like Christ, not because it is a free ticket of cleansing
or illusion of righteousness but we do not care.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9,514
#9,514
FranC said:
Ariel,

You must know by now that I don't post links.
I'm going to post this one and I truly hope you read it well.
Readl all of it, not in snippets.

Justification and Sanctification: The Theological and Practical relationship Between the Two Doctrines

It explains really well Justification and Sanctification and even what different churches doctrine is.
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Taken from the link.

The doctrine of justification states that we possess Christ's righteousness. Although this righteousness which we possess is a true righteousness, it is an alien righteousness. God has willed for us to be given this judicial standing of righteousness, but He has also willed for us to be made righteous in our nature. Millard Erickson said "sanctification is a process by which one's moral condition is brought into conformity with one's legal status before God."18 Sanctification is becoming in actuality what we have already been declared to be in justification. Such a description is befitting of the Biblical data.

If we read this correctly, It is true, Sanctification is the process of trying to match our moral standard, or holiness to our justification. Our justification as the author said earlier, is our "right standing before God" We are declared righteous (the literal meaning of the Greek word) or innocent of any and all wrong doing. It is our life's goal, and the goal of all christian to live a life which strives to match the position we have in Christ.

The question is then.

1. What does this look like (Is it not glorification)
2. Is it possible in this lifetime
3. What happens to a person who does not reach this point of sanctification. are they saved?


 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#9,515
#9,515
FranC said:
This is referring to the Jews who didn't understand what Paul was preaching.
They wanted to go back to the LAW and abandon Grace.
It's a little scary to live under grace--- it's so much easier to just be told what to do.
Some Christians are like this too.

This does not apply to sanctification.

J and S are concepts. Biblical of course, but they need to be learned on their own merit. Like the Holy Trinity.

Can't you just explain what Sanctification is?? (like I did)
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what is the difference between a jew trying to go back to mosaic law. and people inn the church trying to go back to law (does not matter what law it is) They both preach justification by works.. And pauls message to the works based church is just as relevant as it was to the jews back then.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

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Ariel82 said:
But biblically incorrect....God clothed them in animal skins before Eve ever got pregnant with Cain.
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I agree. God did give them new clothes to wear after their own attempts to cover themselves. It sounds like works-righteousness came in their minds came right after the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

That makes me think of the some things we believe that we got from our church teachings and traditions if we say something that is different - we find it hard to believe.

For example: The bible no where says that there were 3 wise men that came to visit Jesus. The other fallacy is that these wise men were at the birth of Jesus - they were not.

These 2 things are commonly held beliefs and yet they are not accurate at all. It makes one wonder what "other things" do we just accept as being true because of what we were taught in our church teachings?
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#9,517
#9,517
PeterJens said:
I apologize for not distinguishing concepts in the way I express myself.
In my own thinking I have not clearly worked out how faith justifies and purifies us
from sin, when we may not yet resolved various issues in our hearts.

I perceive a living faith means the issues will resolve when we see Christ face to face.
Now without this resolution, one does end up locked in sinless perfectionism, because
sin will be counted against you. Certainly Jesus is implying this talking about if you are caught
in sin by a part of your body, resolution by removing that part is a solution. I regard this
is just an extreme example, because sin is in the desire of the hearts and its expression, and
removal of limbs does not change the way of the heart. But it demonstrates the seriousness
of sin and behaviour and we have no reason to compromise.

And the theology is less important to me than the road we travel, and how we travel along.
We are justified because we desire to be like Christ, not because it is a free ticket of cleansing
or illusion of righteousness but we do not care.
Click to expand...
No we are sanctified by our desire to follow Jesus. We are justified by our Faith in Jesus redeeming work on the cross.

Do you understand the importance to distinguish between the two while having a conversation?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#9,518
#9,518
Let's add to this incomplete definition of justification...

JUSTIFICATION (for the umpteenth time)

Justification is a free gift from God. We cannot earn it. It is obtained through our faith, by the grace of God. No amount of works can save us. But only our FAITH in Jesus who died for our sins.
Epesians 2:8
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Justification is what allows people to become born again children of God...it not only gives you a legal standing of "innocent" which is called positional justification and alien righteousness. It also restores the the right relationship between God and mankind through the Holy Spirit.

Justification is not only free, it's life changing.

Justification only happens when your foundation is in Christ alone for salvation.

When you add works to earn salvation, your justification is no longer on Christ alone.

Therefore a false understanding of justification can shipwreck your faith, because you are building on shifting sands and not the Rock.
 
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Ariel82

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#9,520
#9,520
Here is an easy way to make the distinction between justification and sanctification:

Justification is the Root. It is based upon what Jesus did for us.

Sanctification is the fruit. It is based upon being saved and abiding in Jesus. One of the first fruits is confessing with your mouth saving faith that comes from the heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Then you add to that faith, virtue, knowledge, self control,perseverance, brotherly kindness and AGAPE love. Once the inner work of sanctification by walking with the Holy Spirit is begun and brought to a certain point, God gives His children tasks and work to do for His Glory and to use the spiritual gifts he bestowed individually upon each child. He chastens his kids if they fall into son,but he does NOT end or sever His relationship with them....all of this is part of the sanctification process that God works in the lives of His kids and how He teaches them to live godly lives for His Glory.


However sanctification should not be confused with justification.
 
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