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Thread: Not By Works

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    The pharisee thought he was righteous, He did not think he could not. so he appeared to be. They were angry because Jesus told them their hard work amounted to nothing

    Thats why they killed Jesus.

    The depths people will go to remain entrenched in legalism just amazes me.
    I know....post 12900........it is like some cannot see past their own nose in order to grasp the truth of what is actually being said.......stuck in this legalistic mind set that I MUST DO IN ORDER TO GAIN......

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    I know....post 12900........it is like some cannot see past their own nose in order to grasp the truth of what is actually being said.......stuck in this legalistic mind set that I MUST DO IN ORDER TO GAIN......
    when you do not think the cross is enough, that is what you get.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    when you do not think the cross is enough, that is what you get.
    Exactly or that the imputed righteousness of Christ is a neat little trick that does not work<---same thing (in essence) the Pharisees implied when accusing Jesus of doing his work by the power of the devil instead of the Holy Spirit....

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Dude....you completely missed his point because you cannot grasp the truth of what he said.....and the POINT IS...NO ONE can MEET the STANDARDS that MUST BE MET to EARN or DESERVE the right to ENTER the KINGDOM of HEAVEN......and that is exactly what the LAW proves....WE ARE all GUILTY and NONE can meet the standard SET BY GOD......and exactly why we NEED to be redeemed, justified, saved and sealed by the blood of JESUS in faith....

    and you wonder why I call you a cake taker.........you cannot get past your own religious CREED to see the truth of what ANYONE posts........and the sad part....that is the same PROBLEM the PHARISEES had...................WOW!
    dc - Let me put an idea to you. Let us suppose in Christ you can walk righteously, fulfill
    the law, find love flowing from your heart to all those you meet and have a deep relationship
    with God. I am not saying whether anyone has fulfilled this or not, but just saying imagine
    this was possible.

    Then go through scripture and realise though many failed to meet Gods requirements at first
    when they started to interact with Him and realise His nature, they found a place of communion.

    Then you look at Paul who tried to find this place through the law but failed, but found righteousness
    through his relationship with christ. Then you look at the language of Paul and the apostles and they
    assume they not only found themselves fulfilling the law but love flowed from them to others.

    And suddenly the scriptures open, about staying undefiled, avoiding temptation, living a pure, clean
    life. Yes Christ accepts repentant sinners who have much to learn, but he expects us to follow and
    learn.

    So what I think of as a possibility, becomes a reality.

    Scripture is so open ended you can weave many strands of belief through it, which history shows
    people do. What interests me is the spiritual reality of finding righteousness in our hearts.

    The cross and its victory is the resurrection from dead, remaking of us with new bodies.
    Our hope is at this time we are pure, cleansed, remade, whole, complete in Christ.

    Which part are you willing to loose, or is all of it lost if just one part has failed?
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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    I know....post 12900........it is like some cannot see past their own nose in order to grasp the truth of what is actually being said.......stuck in this legalistic mind set that I MUST DO IN ORDER TO GAIN......
    dc - Empathy. I wish you could have this simple reality. It is your legalistic mindset which
    rejects that which is love and Christ in this world.

    The problem with man is a lack of love and communion with God. You want a legalistic taking
    away of sin debt exterior to your heart, and then just accepting you are now redeemed.

    This works if there does not have to be any reality in your heart just the hope something may
    have happened. The problem comes when you find nothing has changed, it is just religion.
    FranC likes this.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterJens View Post
    dc - Empathy. I wish you could have this simple reality. It is your legalistic mindset which
    rejects that which is love and Christ in this world.

    The problem with man is a lack of love and communion with God. You want a legalistic taking
    away of sin debt exterior to your heart, and then just accepting you are now redeemed.

    This works if there does not have to be any reality in your heart just the hope something may
    have happened. The problem comes when you find nothing has changed, it is just religion.
    The man does not even understand what legalism is, He is calling DC legalistic lolol.. I have heard everything now.

    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    when you do not think the cross is enough, that is what you get.
    Here is the point.

    The cross is infinity, it has no end. It echoes Gods heart and commitment to us.
    But we need to respond for it to work in us and for us.

    Interestingly people say they do not choose salvation, but if they do not choose it they
    will be judged and doomed to hell. So a strange contradiction is created, you do not choose
    Christ, but you are judged for rejecting Him.

    So the criticism of saying choice is involved or responding to the gospel is now wrong to point
    out, yet within this same theology choosing is also believed. Now there is a contradiction here
    but being honest about it is obviously not high on the agenda. lol.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    The man does not even understand what legalism is, He is calling DC legalistic lolol.. I have heard everything now.

    This makes a very good point. One can take the opposite of legalism, lawlessness,
    but still have a legalistic outlook on what failure is. Legalism does not apply just to
    those who apply it to themselves but those who interpret faith through its moral
    outlook. Jesus was saying legalistic outlooks fail to grasp love and the heart of God.
    Equally lawlessness is not better.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    You said that BELIEVE does not ALWAYS mean instruction.

    Does it mean INSTRUCTION when it's JESUS giving the instructions?

    All I want to now is this, with a clear answer:

    ARE WE REQUIRED TO FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS AND INSTRUCTIONS JESUS LEFT US?

    Or do we get to decide NOT to do what HE TAUGHT and INSTRUCTED?
    Anything that we do out of our own will, strength, must do thinking is not of the grace of God. Grace is not only unmerited favor, but the influence of Holy Spirit in our life.

    We do out of our Spirit man...and we can't do anything apart from Him. The problem is what are the works that we are to do?

    Good works toward others? Even the unsaved can do this.

    When He speaks to our spirit within...whether through His Voice, or the rhema Word as we read...then we know His personal will for our life.

    The Jews were taught moral law. I think this is what you are alluding to in your posts. The gentiles had no such teachings. But, in their heart...Holy Spirit begins His work.

    This is simply what we all are saying. It's His work to start our salvation...it's His work to strengthen and cause growth in our understanding, and it's His work to keep us until the day...day of what? Day of His wrath? Day of our death? Day of whatever...He keeps us.

    He finishes what He starts. If left to us? None would be saved.
    Jeepers Creepers...we gotta get new peepers.

    Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Personally, I didn't understand this either until I knew I was no longer flesh, but Spirit. There's the true beginning of the supernatural man/woman of God.

    Most don't understand this. Do you Fran?
    Jeepers Creepers...we gotta get new peepers.

    Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterJens View Post
    This makes a very good point. One can take the opposite of legalism, lawlessness,
    but still have a legalistic outlook on what failure is. Legalism does not apply just to
    those who apply it to themselves but those who interpret faith through its moral
    outlook. Jesus was saying legalistic outlooks fail to grasp love and the heart of God.
    Equally lawlessness is not better.

    Legalism is stating that something which is said to be a gift must be earned by some work. it is saying salvation is earned or maintained by some legal set of rules or guidelines,

    however, i agree, legalism is no better than lawlessness (or as some put it, licentiousness) . I feel both are based on pride of the person who holds to either gospel.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    Personally, I didn't understand this either until I knew I was no longer flesh, but Spirit. There's the true beginning of the supernatural man/woman of God.

    Most don't understand this. Do you Fran?
    It was hard to come out of this line of thinking.

    I used to think the law said do not commit adultery, so as long as I did not do it, I was doing good works. so as long as I looked at the law, and I was not constantly breaking it, I must be doing pretty good and doing alot of Good works.

    But that is not what the law was intended to do. nor is it what a true work is. And even an unbeliever can look to the law and appear to be good.. because they do not commit the pet sins.

    True works are serving others. Loving as God loved us, Taking the love God gave to us, and sharing it with the world.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    We fear the devil so much but we don't realize that his work is mainly lying to us about Jesus.

    Or what He has given us. We constantly have to guard our heart with His Word.

    Good posts EG..
    Jeepers Creepers...we gotta get new peepers.

    Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    What you do not understand is that words have multiple meanings, however it does NOT mean, the word means all of those things as once, the word must be understood within context.

    Whoever has taught you this doctrine, centered around the word "believe", does not understand basic linguistics

    Eternal salvation IS Truth,

    Seven eternal promises to the Born Again Believer:

    For a Christian to lose their salvation and be expelled from the kingdom…

    1. God would have to forsake us, when he said he wouldn’t (Heb 13:5)
    2. God would have to cast us out, when he said he wouldn’t (John 6:37)
    3. God would have to condemn us, when he said he wouldn’t (Rom 8:1,34)
    4. God would have to withdraw his Spirit, when he said he wouldn’t (John 14:16-17)
    5. God would have to remember our sins, when he said he wouldn’t (Jer 31:34, Heb 10:17)
    6. God would have to forget that we are his children, when he said he wouldn’t (Is 49:15)
    7. God would have to blot our names out of the book of life, when he said he wouldn’t (Rev 3:5)
    I feel that I must answer this:
    SO...

    1. God NEVER forsakes us.

    2. God does not cast us out.

    3. Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.

    4. The Holy Spirit never withdraws.

    5. God forgives our sins and then forgets them.

    6. God made everyone and therefore everyone is a "child".

    7. God can blot out a name from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:31-33


    "Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, "Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. "But now, if You will, forgive their sin--and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.”


    BTW, Regarding numbers 1 to 6.

    GOD will never let go of you.

    But YOU can decide to let go of Him.

    Do you have free will or not?
    PeterJens and LoveGodForever like this.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    What you do not understand is that words have multiple meanings, however it does NOT mean, the word means all of those things as once, the word must be understood within context.

    Whoever has taught you this doctrine, centered around the word "believe", does not understand basic linguistics

    Eternal salvation IS Truth,

    Seven eternal promises to the Born Again Believer:

    For a Christian to lose their salvation and be expelled from the kingdom…

    1. God would have to forsake us, when he said he wouldn’t (Heb 13:5)
    2. God would have to cast us out, when he said he wouldn’t (John 6:37)
    3. God would have to condemn us, when he said he wouldn’t (Rom 8:1,34)
    4. God would have to withdraw his Spirit, when he said he wouldn’t (John 14:16-17)
    5. God would have to remember our sins, when he said he wouldn’t (Jer 31:34, Heb 10:17)
    6. God would have to forget that we are his children, when he said he wouldn’t (Is 49:15)
    7. God would have to blot our names out of the book of life, when he said he wouldn’t (Rev 3:5)
    BTW,
    Number 7 is regarding one who OVERCOMES.
    Rev 2:26
    Have YOU overcome?

    Does one have to overcome, or is one saved eternally, forever, no matter what?
    There seems to be a conflict here... Which is it??

    Did you read a few verses up?
    Rev 2:23b

    Jesus will give to each one according to their deeds.
    According the their DEEDS, not according to whether or not we JUST believed in Him.

    John spent over 3 years with Jesus, why do you think John is speaking about DEEDS (another word for WORKS)
    ???

    Could it be because DEEDS or WORKS are EXPECTED of us, as scripture declares over and over for those who want to see the truth.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    Sons of disobedience are those in the world ( that all belong to the Father to begin with ) are the ones who refuse to believe in Christ for salvation.

    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedienceamong whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

    But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved... (Ephesians 2:1-5 ESV)
    Grace,
    You conveniently went to Ephesians BUT I was quoting MATHEW 5:45 and what come just before that and after that.

    That's playing scripture pong.

    A waste of time.
    YOU first exegete Mathew
    And then I'll do the same for Ephesians.


    Thanks.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    Legalism is stating that something which is said to be a gift must be earned by some work. it is saying salvation is earned or maintained by some legal set of rules or guidelines,

    however, i agree, legalism is no better than lawlessness (or as some put it, licentiousness) . I feel both are based on pride of the person who holds to either gospel.
    Now if someone hold that they are maintained by faith working through their lives to
    bring about righteousness, they are neither legalists or lawless. Faith, or the real
    relationship with God, open, emotional, empathetic, loving, shunning evil and delighting
    in good, that is where Gods heart is.

    Occasionally g7 displays this view and others, but there is a continual desire to stamp
    out anything related to legalism or anything talking about rules or precepts.

    This makes me wonder. Love, and how we love is based on ideas. You cannot love in
    isolation. I could love evil, and that would not be good. I could love to exalt myself,
    or I could love to serve, and honour God. As soon as you decide one avenue is not right
    while the other is pleasing to the Lord you have created a rule or structure.

    So some of this language is not clearly defined. Precepts and rules are part of life, the
    govern everything we do. To get from one place to another I have to apply rules, energy,
    precepts, take care etc. or nothing happens.

    So all anarchistic philosphies or anti-rules based position are actually about a rejection of
    a group or experience common to the people and opening up to a different set of groups or
    experiences. I have noticed this when Kenneth Copeland opened up to the Pope. It is clearly
    about power and allegiance rather than belief or ideas.

    Another analogy here on cc, is personalising attacks to individuals rather than the theology or
    ideas. This again shows the ideas mean less than identifying with the group.

    But God is impartial, and has always been about precepts, rules, boundaries, clean and unclean,
    righteous and sinful. Cain and Able, one offered a pleasing sacrifice the other not.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    He would also also be seen as a liar

    he sad we have eternal life, when we do not
    he said we will never die, when we may still yet fie
    he said we would never hunger or thirst, when we will
    he said his food will endure forever And if we eat it we will live forever when that is possibly not true
    he said he will raise a s, when that man hit not be true,
    he said as long as he lives, we will also, when again, that may not be true (He will live forever, we may not)

    the workers do do not understand, the profess faith in Christ, but in reality, they have no faith in Christ, their faith is in self preserving these things. Not God keeping his promises
    Who are the workers EG???

    The cheap gracers are correct in stating the above

    AS LONG AS WE ARE IN CHRIST.

    Which the cheap gracers do not want to admit.

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    I feel that I must answer this:
    SO...

    1. God NEVER forsakes us.

    2. God does not cast us out.

    3. Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.

    4. The Holy Spirit never withdraws.

    5. God forgives our sins and then forgets them.

    6. God made everyone and therefore everyone is a "child".

    7. God can blot out a name from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:31-33


    "Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, "Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. "But now, if You will, forgive their sin--and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.”


    BTW, Regarding numbers 1 to 6.

    GOD will never let go of you.

    But YOU can decide to let go of Him.

    Do you have free will or not?
    Thus must be responded to also.

    Those blotted out are those who ever has sinned against God.. Have you sinned? Then apart from salvation, Your without hope.

    So your saying you are stronger than God, and you can pull yourself away from him.

    I know kids who are stronger than their parents, who pull and tug and eventually break the grasp of their parents hold. But I did not know that a child of God could be stronger than he is.


    Again, How can you claim to have faith in God, yet say you can pull yourself away from God.. Seems you have more faiht in your power than Gods.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Not By Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Typical, you can not refute what I said, so you just babble..but hey, that was S good for new people who may be reading this.. exposes who you are
    I don't babble.

    I use scripture.

    YOU try doing the same.

    Thank you.

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