Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J
actually your view on cain and abel isn't accurate,for starters nowhere in the bible does it say that cain didn't have faith,nor that cain didn't believe God when instructed to make an offering unto God,if you read closely then you'd know that both believed in God what differed was their choice in offering,for both in their own humble way attempted to please God with a proper offering,both were faithful and true when choosing an offering for God,their views were merely different on the matter,yes cain offered vegetables because it was his profession,and abel slew and offered a new born lamb from his profession,what God felt from both made the difference when choosing which humble offering to accept from "one" of them,for cain offered plenty of vegetables that he worked all year on for this offering but all he had was pride in his heart,where as abel after a full year,God felt that abel was saddened to slay the lamb he brought up and watched over for a year yet despite this he slew the lamb for he knew that he needed to have an offering for God!
there in was the difference both were indeed humble and faithful,but abel's heart won God's favor so God accepted Abel's offering,for he made it clear that he would only choose one offering to accept,this angered cain to where he decided to slay abel only then being unfaithful to God,and when God asked where abel was,cain said "am I my brother's keeper?" there again being unfaithful to God and unbelieving that he would be punished,so please read this part of Genesis again alongside the holy spirit,and you'll know for yourself what is written,not what is assumed,not trying to sound as if you didn't read the bible,just trying to help as God would have me to help you or anyone "learn" God's word,as accurately as I can,hope you'll keep on striving to know more of God's word!
there in was the difference both were indeed humble and faithful,but abel's heart won God's favor so God accepted Abel's offering,for he made it clear that he would only choose one offering to accept,this angered cain to where he decided to slay abel only then being unfaithful to God,and when God asked where abel was,cain said "am I my brother's keeper?" there again being unfaithful to God and unbelieving that he would be punished,so please read this part of Genesis again alongside the holy spirit,and you'll know for yourself what is written,not what is assumed,not trying to sound as if you didn't read the bible,just trying to help as God would have me to help you or anyone "learn" God's word,as accurately as I can,hope you'll keep on striving to know more of God's word!
This is a strange "take" on Cain and Abel. It's hard to read a wall of text without any paragraphs so I separated out the part in brown - this seems to be your personal view of Cain and Abel's story as there is no scripture stating this belief.
You are entitled to believe what you want about it but I wouldn't say that Katy-follower's "take" on it is wrong.
You seem to have come at it with a humanistic viewpoint and katy-follower through God's view of the need to have blood cover us - in the New Covenant of course the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ takes away the sin of the world. Without the shedding of blood - there is no forgiveness of sins.
God had to have the animals killed in order to provide skins for Adam and Eve when they knew they were naked.
They definitely both had faith - one in what "he has done by his hand" and the other had "faith in the way that God had done for Abel's parents".
We can all certainly agree that we need the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to us as we read the scriptures. They all speak of Him!
Last edited:
Actually, your view misses the mark...it states that Cain was of that WICKED ONE and refused to acknowledge God's instruction on repenting as seen by Cain's verbiage....and the promise of the bruised and wounded messiah was seen in Genesis 3:15 before Cain was born......Abel offered blood for a reason!
P
Which is why James was not lying when he said faith has to have works attached in order for the believer to be saved on the last day. And it isn't because work has the power to earn a person a place in the kingdom. It's because work is what the faith that justifies all by itself looks like.
Our work will be the evidence God uses to confirm the righteousness we have solely through faith in Christ's forgiveness. But so many 'Christians' are convinced their faith 'alone', minus works of righteousness, on the day of judgment is going to save them.
Our work will be the evidence God uses to confirm the righteousness we have solely through faith in Christ's forgiveness. But so many 'Christians' are convinced their faith 'alone', minus works of righteousness, on the day of judgment is going to save them.
Last edited:
James does not say that and the very verbiage of the bible states that salvation is a current possession with a continuing result from a past completed action.....
In the grace you are, having BEEN SAVED (past tense) out of faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a GIFT of GOD NOT OF WORKS lest any man may boast.....
and to your last statement....Jesus was clear....people like you who add works to faith for salvation will be in the plenteous in number that comes before him espousing and pushing the exact flavored false gospel that you push....only to find out that FAITH plus WORKS to acquire or maintain salvation was a false gospel with no power to save Galatians 1 and 3
FAITH alone SAVES....any work or fruit is the result OF the faith and salvation one already possesses in Christ....
SAVED UNTO GOOD WORKS<--Ephesians
NOT
SAVED BY or KEPT SAVED by WORKS.....
In the grace you are, having BEEN SAVED (past tense) out of faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a GIFT of GOD NOT OF WORKS lest any man may boast.....
and to your last statement....Jesus was clear....people like you who add works to faith for salvation will be in the plenteous in number that comes before him espousing and pushing the exact flavored false gospel that you push....only to find out that FAITH plus WORKS to acquire or maintain salvation was a false gospel with no power to save Galatians 1 and 3
FAITH alone SAVES....any work or fruit is the result OF the faith and salvation one already possesses in Christ....
SAVED UNTO GOOD WORKS<--Ephesians
NOT
SAVED BY or KEPT SAVED by WORKS.....
SURE.......SHOW ME.......the KEY.....it does not say a person is SAVED BY WORKS or KEPT SAVED by works.....but that works are the evidence of SAVING FAITH which is what SAVES>>>>>
It pleased GOD by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE<----NOT ONE WORK MENTIONED......
Your embellishment.....found in bold
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and DO GOOD WORKS....
It pleased GOD by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE<----NOT ONE WORK MENTIONED......
Your embellishment.....found in bold
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe and DO GOOD WORKS....
P
Read carefully:
...work is what the faith that justifies all by itself looks like.
That's not a works gospel.
If you have a faith that is not changing you into a person who is growing up into the righteous life of Christ then you do not have the faith that, all by itself, makes a person righteous. Righeous work is the footprint of the faith that justifies all by itself. People who have the faith of Abraham (which justifies all by itself) also walk in the footsteps of Abraham's faith (the footsteps of obedience). If you don't then you do not have the faith of Abraham that justifies all by itself.
...work is what the faith that justifies all by itself looks like.
That's not a works gospel.
If you have a faith that is not changing you into a person who is growing up into the righteous life of Christ then you do not have the faith that, all by itself, makes a person righteous. Righeous work is the footprint of the faith that justifies all by itself. People who have the faith of Abraham (which justifies all by itself) also walk in the footsteps of Abraham's faith (the footsteps of obedience). If you don't then you do not have the faith of Abraham that justifies all by itself.
Again...no one has said the works will not follow....the works are the result of and EVEN creation teaches this as well as John 15....It is faith and faith alone that gives birth and places one into the vine and PAUL is clear....to embellish faith with works to FINISH salvation is a lie, false, double cursed gospel with no power....end of story!
P
Even Paul himself says the faith that justifies (all by itself) is the faith that loves (works)--Galatians 5:6 NIV.
Perhaps the misunderstanding is in thinking you're that you aren't justified the instant you believe in Christ, because you are. It's just that if that genuinely happened (you were justified by faith all by itself) you will then live a life of ever increasing obedience to God (aka, love). That's why Christ will be separating the righteous from the unrighteous on the day of judgment on the basis of what each did, not what they claimed with their mouths.
Matthew 18:32-36, 41-43 NASB
"32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’"
As we can see, faith 'alone' is not going to save anyone on the day of judgment. It isn't that works earn anyone entrance into the kingdom, it's that work is what the faith that justifies all by itself looks like. And that is why our work will be the evidence that either convicts us or acquits us at the judgment. John echoes this truth in his letter:
1 John 2:29 NASB
"you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him."
But the church at large is so sure that the one who DOESN'T practice righteousness, but just says they are, is also born of him, because, as they say, salvation is so not of works. True, salvation is not of works, but what is not being understood is the fact that people who have faith in Christ also have an ever increasing righteous life to prove it.
Perhaps the misunderstanding is in thinking you're that you aren't justified the instant you believe in Christ, because you are. It's just that if that genuinely happened (you were justified by faith all by itself) you will then live a life of ever increasing obedience to God (aka, love). That's why Christ will be separating the righteous from the unrighteous on the day of judgment on the basis of what each did, not what they claimed with their mouths.
Matthew 18:32-36, 41-43 NASB
"32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’"
As we can see, faith 'alone' is not going to save anyone on the day of judgment. It isn't that works earn anyone entrance into the kingdom, it's that work is what the faith that justifies all by itself looks like. And that is why our work will be the evidence that either convicts us or acquits us at the judgment. John echoes this truth in his letter:
1 John 2:29 NASB
"you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him."
But the church at large is so sure that the one who DOESN'T practice righteousness, but just says they are, is also born of him, because, as they say, salvation is so not of works. True, salvation is not of works, but what is not being understood is the fact that people who have faith in Christ also have an ever increasing righteous life to prove it.
Last edited:
it is faith alone that saves, justifies before God, sanctifies positionally in Christ and seals with the Holy Spirit....end of story....and I have already said that one who is genuinely born again will have at least one piece of fruit or work that identifies the tree....Paul is also clear in Galatians 1 and 3....to say that the works FINISH off the equation of salvation which is begun in the spirit is double cursed, called a gospel of a different kind, has no power to save and all who believe it are called fools and bewitched.....
Your view rejects the fact that the saved can have works of wood, hay and stubble, can be cut lose for eh destruction of the flesh so the spirit will be saved in the day of Christ and denies the fact that not all believers will be faithful in their walk and require the chastening hand of God......
Jesus said the WORK of the FATHER was to BELIEVE.......and again any work produced is the result of the faith and salvation one already possesses...
What produces....the vine or the ROOT....?
WHY does ALL glory go to God dia JESUS?
Who actually does the work...YOU or JESUS through you as a living sacrifice?
The bible is clear...
Grace or WORKS.....it is not and cannot be both....it is one or the other and a café blend of both fails the test Galatians is clear.....faith plus works to finish salvation = false gospel of "heteros" a different KIND than what Paul preached.....
Your view rejects the fact that the saved can have works of wood, hay and stubble, can be cut lose for eh destruction of the flesh so the spirit will be saved in the day of Christ and denies the fact that not all believers will be faithful in their walk and require the chastening hand of God......
Jesus said the WORK of the FATHER was to BELIEVE.......and again any work produced is the result of the faith and salvation one already possesses...
What produces....the vine or the ROOT....?
WHY does ALL glory go to God dia JESUS?
Who actually does the work...YOU or JESUS through you as a living sacrifice?
The bible is clear...
Grace or WORKS.....it is not and cannot be both....it is one or the other and a café blend of both fails the test Galatians is clear.....faith plus works to finish salvation = false gospel of "heteros" a different KIND than what Paul preached.....