Not By Works

[UnderGrace]

Yes this is true, large print is important for the visually impaired.

I doubt that was the intention of the large print though!

People seem to read different than what's said.. large print is also used for the elderly or hard of
seeing

 

[dcontroversal]

even if I think Aries is sticking her head in leo? Lol

Hilarious and I needed a good laugh HAHAH......pack a suitcase and when it hits the fan you can bring your rear down to the promise land HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAH

 

[Gabriel2020]

God gave us free will because we had to have it in order to worship him. We have to have a will to worship.,or we would not. when sin entered the world, it caused Adam and Eve to will themselves to sin and stopped their worship to God.

 

[PHart]

So God made a HUGE mistake in declaring Abraham righteous, when he declaired outright that abraham had faith.

Thank you for showing me you have little faith in who God is,,

It seems to me God tested Abraham many times,

He said you will have a child through your wife, Abraham failed the test, He committed adultery, and the the middle east has been at war ever since as a result.

Abraham failed the test of believing God twice, when he made his wife say she was his sister. Where was abrahams faith then that God would keep his promise and he would have a son through Sarah? That God would not allow anything to happen to Sarah, because he still had to keep his promise?

Yet Abraham proved his faith many times, As proven by the book of Hebrews.

Heb 11:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

These were not enough to prove his faith? According to God they were, Faith works, It does not sit still, But faith is not perfect, Proven by the fact Abraham failed at faith many times.


Yet you want to say if Abraham did not do something decades later he would not have been saved?

Again, If anything, The offering up of Issac proves how much Abraham's faith grew, Not that he had faith. He proved his faith LONG before he went to offer his son, And if he had failed? He would have been just as saved as when he commited adultry, or tried to deceive people about his wife to protect her.

Again, James said faith WITHOUT WORKS,, Abraham had MANY WORKS before he went to offer his son, He already PROVED HIS FAITH

James is not written to people who have true faith, It is written to people who have dead faith.

Like I said, you stepped in it pretty bad, lol.
Paul says Abraham did not waver in his faith...

Romans 4:19-22 NASB
19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.22Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM ASRIGHTEOUSNESS.

But you say he did waver, in whatever argument you were trying to make. I'm gonna go with what the Bible says on this one, not what you say.

I don't even remember who challenged me with the question of what would have happened to Abraham had he not attempted to sacrifice Isaac on the altar before he died. He/she thought it was somehow a foregone conclusion that he would still be saved, despite his disobedience. But it's not a foregone conclusion, especially since the question lacked so many qualifying details. If his lack of obedience was BECAUSE HE LOST HIS FAITH IN THE PROMISES he would have died condemned. When the reason work does not follow a declaration of righteousness through having faith because the person no longer has faith, that lack of work will condemn that person at the judgment. The righteousness from a faith he no longer has will not be available to save him.

I don't know why you people have to always turn every discussion about doctrine into an OSAS argument. The church is so pathetically tangled up in closed minded, dogmatic, Calvinistic doctrine, and now Hypergrace doctrine, that I think it will not recover from now until the end. The leaven is almost done working it's way through the whole batch. Then the end will come. And many people will stand before God with nothing more than OSAS lip service to show for their lives on earth and will be stunned to silence when they then see their lack of righteous works was indeed the result of not having the righteousness that comes by faith, even though all their lives OSAS taught them they did have it in spite of the fact that they lived no better lives than people in the world.

And now you folks may continue with only being able to hear what I just said as a defense for works salvation...

 

[Grace777x70]

thank you to all who showed I did not pull my "paid in full" comment out of thin air, but had concrete reliable sources that the used the word in that way in Jesus day, I appreciate it.

It is only "Not finished" and "Not paid" or "Not redeemed "- if you have to do things to maintain righteousness which ironically nullifies the very grace of God needed to walk out the life of Christ in us while we are in this earth.

 

[Zi]

Actually it was..

Yes this is true, large print is important for the visually impaired.

I doubt that was the intention of the large print though!

 

[UnderGrace]

Yup ...discipleship (learners) we are learning to walk in His grace. That all important "free will" term that everyone here keeps using.
We please God when we are motivated by love not fear.

Sure you can make yourself be good, but you are not partaking of His victory so you make is work null and void and not the empowering force it was meant to be in our lives.

Wow!!! Reverence is the only thing that stops sin.. You QUOTE grace teaches not stops, that's a choice

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like I said, you stepped in it pretty bad, lol. Paul says Abraham did not waver in his faith...

Romans 4:19-22 NASB
19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.22Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM ASRIGHTEOUSNESS.

But you say he did. I'm gonna go with what the Bible says on this one, not what you say.

I don't even remember who challenged me with the question of what would have happened to Abraham had he not attempted to sacrifice Isaac on the altar. He/she thought it was somehow a foregone conclusion that he would still be saved, despite his disobedience. But it's not a foregone conclusion, especially since the question lacked so many qualifying details. If his lack of obedience was BECAUSE HE LOST HIS FAITH IN THE PROMISES he would have died condemned. When the reason work does not follow a declaration of righteousness through having faith that lack of work will condemn that person at the judgment. The righteousness from a faith he no longer has will not be available to save him.

I don't know why you people have to always turn every discussion about doctrine into an OSAS argument. The church is so pathetically tangled up in closed minded, dogmatic, Calvinistic doctrine, and now Hypergrace doctrine, that I think it will not recover from now until the end. The leaven is almost done working it's way through the whole batch. Then the end will come. And many people will stand before God with nothing more than OSAS lip service to show for their lives on earth and will be stunned to silence when they then see their lack of righteous works was indeed the result of not having the righteousness that comes by faith, even though all their lives OSAS taught them they did have it in spite of the fact that they lived no better lives than people in the world.

yeah whatever dude, I did not turn it into an osas argument, I asked you a question. Asked you to back your claim, you failed to do so, and seem to be just beating around the bush, while excusing abrahams sin in the process, and ignoring the consequence of abrahams sin.

but hey thats the way you workers operate, you love to excuse sin, while judging everyone else.

well good luck with that, God is judge, not you

 

[Zi]

You are obstinate and that's why you don't agree, you refuse.. I've said I meant reverence fear not scared fear.. you pass by that because you don't know what it is..

Yup ...discipleship (learners) we are learning to walk in His grace. That all important "free will" term that everyone here keeps using.
We please God when we are motivated by love not fear.

Sure you can make yourself be good, but you are not partaking of His victory so you make is work null and void and not the empowering force it was meant to be in our lives.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes I agree, God gave us a will, it is not totally free though, some time we do things we do not want to do.

God gave us free will because we had to have it in order to worship him. We have to have a will to worship.,or we would not. when sin entered the world, it caused Adam and Eve to will themselves to sin and stopped their worship to God.

 

[Ariel82]

They view God is a Big Daddy is because they view the savior aspect, but not the fact he also has to be Lord & Savior.

It is easy to sit back in the grace easy chair and confess he died for your sins, but quite another to walk to the cross and put the old man on the cross and crucify him w/Christ. This means you surrender it all. This is when the Savior becomes your Lord.

Easy believing seems to imply that after conversion I do not do anything in regards to spiritual growth...it is him that changes me from everlasting to everlasting, glory to glory, faith to faith, strength to strength.....I sit back in the knowledge that Jesus own faith has saved me, therefore I am eternally secure, because God's gift of saving Faith is the faith of Jesus, not personal saving faith God gave me....I can never walk away from being eternally secure either....I will never fall into apostasy or deception, because when I have no faith, he is faithful, because he cannot deny himself...fruit bearing is irrelevant because an apple tree despite not bearing fruit is still an apple tree. Fruit bearing proves nothing about my walk with Christ...Yet Jesus said in John 15.8 it proves we are making disciples...we cannot know someone's salvation, despite scripture telling us we can....

I asked a poster pages ago what would happen if she stopped praying, reading/studying/meditating on the word, and stopped being led to make disciples for 7 days....then 7 weeks, then 7 months and during the whole time Satan is there getting through the cracks in the armor.....that this is apostasy and when falling away happens...because when you are not abiding, you are not close enough to hear him...

Never got one reply from anyone....

same for when the truth I posted that the first generation died in the wilderness and could not enter in to the literal promised land for disbelief and did not enter in to rest.....Proved that God pardoned them, which means he never left them or forsook them, yet they never entered into the literal promised land....nobody did, except for Caleb & Joshua....Numbers 13 & 14, 26 and 32 were pretty specific, then also posted that the Holy Spirit warns about the same exact thing in Hebrews 3 & 4....

Never got one reply from anyone.....

You got answers,they just didn't support the man in the easy arm chair so you ignored them.

If someone walks away from God they are either 1. Not really saved or 2. Progidal child.
.
What happens is God sends us His church(is His people) to either 1. Show then the lies Satan has entrapped them with and the Preach the gospel or 2. Show them the lies Satan has used to lead them away from God with and teach them to fight and use discernment after they regain trust in God's love and grace. (whether they accept the Gospel message or not is really between them and God. We can't know what will happen, but God knows if they will accept him or not. We are just called to walk with Him and proclaim His truth in season and out of season).

As for the second, it shows those who are under the Law or the Old covenant never cross over into the Sabbath rest found in Christ.

Caleb and Joshua had faith in God's promises, the others did NOT have a saving faith

Fyi, I believe that God is both my Lord and Savior. Not sure who in the thread rejects Jesus as their Lord, could you point "them" out?

 

[PHart]

And so what is it about Romans 4:19-22 you did not understand, lol?

yeah whatever dude, I did not turn it into an osas argument, I asked you a question. Asked you to back your claim, you failed to do so, and seem to be just beating around the bush, while excusing abrahams sin in the process, and ignoring the consequence of abrahams sin.

but hey thats the way you workers operate, you love to excuse sin, while judging everyone else.

well good luck with that, God is judge, not you

 

[UnderGrace]

Fair enough, I did not get what you meant completely.

However, even reverence fear will not inhibit sin.

I am not saying that reverence fear is a bad thing in and of itself, I am saying that it is Christ's victory that gives us victory, it is the divine influence of grace in our lives that gives us victory over sin.

You are obstinate and that's why you don't agree, you refuse.. I've said I meant reverence fear not scared fear.. you pass by that because you don't know what it is..

 

[PHart]

yeah whatever dude, I did not turn it into an osas argument, I asked you a question. Asked you to back your claim, you failed to do so, and seem to be just beating around the bush, while excusing abrahams sin in the process, and ignoring the consequence of abrahams sin.

but hey thats the way you workers operate, you love to excuse sin, while judging everyone else.

well good luck with that, God is judge, not you

Well, at least you didn't try to convince us all how you weren't really wrong when you said Abraham faltered in his faith, lol. I give you credit for that. But the least you could do is acknowledge you were wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And so what is it about Romans 4:19-22 you did not understand, lol?

Rom 4: 18who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”[e] 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[f]


Yeah what hat about it, he did not consider th deadness of Sara's womb..

hmm mm so why did he go to her maid?

Why did he tell Sarah to say she was his sister not wife?

Yeah thats Thats what I though

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, at least you didn't try to convince us all how you weren't really wrong when you said Abraham faltered in his faith, lol. I give you credit for that. But the least you could do is acknowledge you were wrong.

Why would I

he told Sarah to basically lie, and took her Maid and slept with her in an adulterous affair,

although I guess I could give you this, it was Sarah's lack of faith she gave Abraham permission, and like most men, he took it out of lust, . So maybe he did not do it for lack of faith?

or maybe he did. And it was not lust.

 

[UnderGrace]

Seriously ... who here has a visually impairment if they are willing to disclose their impairment I can help.

I am teacher of the visually impaired now, so I can make sure everything is completely accessible to them. I would not want them to be left out because they cannot see the print.

Actually it was..

 

[PHart]

What are you talking about?
Quit now before you make a fool of yourself.
You were wrong. Own up to it.

Rom 4: 18who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”[e] 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[f]


Yeah what hat about it, he did not consider th deadness of Sara's womb..

hmm mm so why did he go to her maid?

Why did he tell Sarah to say she was his sister not wife?

Yeah thats Thats what I though

 

[Ariel82]

Perhaps it would help folks understood how God "stregthen in faith" if we study scriptural examples?

I believe Peter is a great example of how Jesus mentored a person weak in faith until he was a strong pillar of faith.

 

[Meggido]

Not hardly........and all the references you give have different verb tenses, applied in different ways and are not even the same word pal....YOU cannot even be honest with the WORD USED......

“tetelestai”<----Τετέλεσται<----USED ONLY TWICE (John 19:28 and 30) and BOTH TIMES INDICATE WHAT HAS BEEN SAID and IMPLIED PAID IN FULL

You cannot even be honest with the usage of the word and post the above words to prove your stance and they are NOT EVEN the word used....WOW

Ok look I think both of you are sort of right...
I could not find tetelestai is strongs lexicon, nor could I find it in VINES....I found it in preceptaustin...
Below is Strongs break down of the word finished, used in John 19.30, it is from 2 words teleō: & telos


teleō:Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to bring to a close, to finish, to end
   
   1. passed, finished
2. to perform, execute, complete, fulfil, (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command etc.)
   
   1. with special reference to the subject matter, to carry out the contents of a command
      
   2. with reference also to the form, to do just as commanded, and generally involving the notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfil
3. to pay
   
   1. of tribute
      

telos:

1. end
   
   1. termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
      
   2. the end
      
      1. the last in any succession or series
         
      2. eternal
   3. that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
      
   4. the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2. toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)
   
   2 things talk about pay, but only in context of paying a tribute or paying a tithe, that is a percentage, not PIF bro...
   
   VINES for teleō: & telos
   
   
   [TABLE]
   [TR]
   [TD]A-1[/TD]
   [TD="width: 40"]Verb[/TD]
   [TD]Strong's Number: g1822[/TD]
   [TD]Greek: exartizo[/TD]
   [/TR]
   [/TABLE]
   Accomplish, Accomplishment:
   "to fit out," (from ek, "out," and a verb derived from artos, "a joint"), means "to furnish completely," 2Ti 3:17, or "to accomplish," Act 21:5, there said of a number of days, as if to render the days complete by what was appointed for them.
   See FURNISH. In the Sept., Exd 28:7.
   
   [TABLE]
   [TR]
   [TD="width: 30"]A-2[/TD]
   [TD="width: 40"]Verb[/TD]
   [TD]Strong's Number: g4137[/TD]
   [TD]Greek: pleroo[/TD]
   [/TR]
   [/TABLE]
   
   Accomplish, Accomplishment:
   "to fulfill, to complete, carry out to the full" (as well as to fill), is translated "perfect" in Rev 3:2, AV; RV, "I have found no works of thine fulfilled before My God;" "accomplish" in Luk 9:31.
   See COMPLETE, END, EXPIRE, FILL, FULFILL, FULL, PREACH.
   Note: Its strengthened form, ekpleroo, "to fulfill," lit., "fill out," is used in Act 13:33, of the fulfillment of a Divine promise of the resurrection of Christ.
   
   [TABLE]
   [TR]
   [TD="width: 30"]A-3[/TD]
   [TD="width: 40"]Verb[/TD]
   [TD]Strong's Number: g5055[/TD]
   [TD]Greek: teleo[/TD]
   [/TR]
   [/TABLE]
   
   Accomplish, Accomplishment:
   "to finish, to bring to an end" (telos, "an end"), frequently signifies, not merely to terminate a thing, but to carry out a thing to the full. It is used especially in the Apocalypse, where it occurs eight times, and is rendered "finish" in Rev 10:7; 11:7, and in the RV of Rev 15:1, which rightly translates it "(in them) is finished (the wrath of God)." So in Rev 10:8; in Rev 17:17, RV, "accomplish," and "finish" in Rev 20:3,5,7; in Luk 2:39, RV, "accomplish," for AV, "performed."
   See END, EXPIRE, FILL, FINISH, FULFILL, GO, No. 5, PAY, PERFORM.
   
   [TABLE]
   [TR]
   [TD="width: 30"]A-4[/TD]
   [TD="width: 40"]Verb[/TD]
   [TD]Strong's Number: g2005[/TD]
   [TD]Greek: epiteleo[/TD]
   [/TR]
   [/TABLE]
   
   Accomplish, Accomplishment:
   epi, "up," intensive, and No. 3, is a strengthened form of that verb, in the sense of "accomplishing." The fuller meaning is "to accomplish perfectly;" in Rom 15:28, RV, "accomplish;" "perfecting" in 2Cr 7:1; "complete" in 2Cr 8:6,11; "completion" in the latter part of this 11th verse, which is better than "performance;" "perfected" in Gal 3:3; "perfect" in Phl 1:6. In Hbr 8:5 the margin rightly has "complete" instead of "make," with regard to the Tabernacle. In Hbr 9:6 it is translated "accomplish" and in 1Pe 5:9.
   See COMPLETE, DO, FINISH, MAKE, PERFECT, PERFORM.
   
   [TABLE]
   [TR]
   [TD="width: 30"]A-5[/TD]
   [TD="width: 40"]Verb[/TD]
   [TD]Strong's Number: g5048[/TD]
   [TD]Greek: teleioo[/TD]
   [/TR]
   [/TABLE]
   
   Accomplish, Accomplishment:
   though distinct grammatically from teleo, has much the same meaning. The main distinction is that teleo more frequently signifies "to fulfill," teleioo, more frequently, "to make perfect," one of the chief features of the Epistle to the Hebrews, where it occurs nine times. It is rendered "accomplish" in the RV of Jhn 4:34; 5:36; 17:4; Act 20:24.
   See CONSECRATE, FINISH, FULFILL, PERFECT.
   
   [TABLE]
   [TR]
   [TD="width: 30"]A-6[/TD]
   [TD="width: 40"]Verb[/TD]
   [TD]Strong's Number: g4130[/TD]
   [TD]Greek: pletho[/TD]
   [/TR]
   [/TABLE]
   
   Accomplish, Accomplishment:
   "to fulfill," is translated "accomplished" in the AV of Luk 1:23; 2:6, 21, 22 (RV, "fulfilled").
   See FILL, No. 5, FURNISH, Note.
   
   [TABLE]
   [TR]
   [TD="width: 30"]B-1[/TD]
   [TD="width: 40"]Noun[/TD]
   [TD]Strong's Number: g1604[/TD]
   [TD]Greek: ekplerosis[/TD]
   [/TR]
   [/TABLE]
   
   Accomplish, Accomplishment:
   see A, No. 2, Note, means "an entire fulfilment" (ek, "out," plerosis, "a filling"), Act 21:26, of the "fulfillment" of days of purification.
   
   
   

Preceptaustin:
TETELESTAI-Paid in Full | Precept Austin

I did the link,because the entry tis to large and copying the fst few paragraphs doe snot give us all that it contains...