Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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A
A shallow root is faith that God is loving and kind but no true faith that Jesus is able to save you fully from your sins, create in you a new heart that allows you to cry out Abba Father. Thus when trials arise because of your faith,you deny Jesus and trust not fully in Him but your own abilities or the world's deceptive lies and demonic false doctrines that lead people away from Christ.
P
No.
In your analogy, the person must continue to believe that the car is a gracious free gift given to him apart from his own merit to earn it. And we know that the person is continuing to believe that by the way he takes care of the free gift. If he tramples it underfoot and shows contempt for it by neglecting it or by taking the bus to town instead of the car then we know that he is in contempt of the free gift he has received. When the person who gave him the car returns he's going to be right upset with that person for treating his free gift that way. But if we see that person who received the free gift overflowing with gratitude and thankfulness for the free gift he will not neglect it and will share the free gift he has received with others and give them free rides in it.
Hey, it was your analogy, but it works (no pun intended).
In your analogy, the person must continue to believe that the car is a gracious free gift given to him apart from his own merit to earn it. And we know that the person is continuing to believe that by the way he takes care of the free gift. If he tramples it underfoot and shows contempt for it by neglecting it or by taking the bus to town instead of the car then we know that he is in contempt of the free gift he has received. When the person who gave him the car returns he's going to be right upset with that person for treating his free gift that way. But if we see that person who received the free gift overflowing with gratitude and thankfulness for the free gift he will not neglect it and will share the free gift he has received with others and give them free rides in it.
Hey, it was your analogy, but it works (no pun intended).
P
Well, first off, the hay, wood, and stubble is not your personal works of righteousness. The work that potentially gets burned up in 1 Corinthians 3 are the building blocks you help place in this present earthly kingdom of God. Some of those stones in the temple of God called the church are not genuine and are going to be purged out of the kingdom by fire on the Day of Judgment. All those perishable stones you or I helped put in the building of God are not going to be a reward for us in the next life. We ourselves are going to be saved (provided we aren't teaching doctrines that destroy the building of God). Only the imperishable stones we helped put in the building of God are going to be our reward.
But anyway...
Peter says in an ever increasing amount, that's how much work we are to be doing (not to be saved, or maintain salvation, but as the obligation Paul says we have to the Spirit):
2 Peter 1:5-11 NASB
applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
'Increasing' and 'as long as you practice these things'. It's a lifestyle. It's not a legalistic amount, it's the ongoing works produced by an ongoing and growing faith. You and others ask this question because you're looking at it from the wrong point of view. What God requires is our continuing faith. The works that follow are simply the visible footsteps of that continuing faith. So pass it around....the answer to how much (and how long) is 'ever increasing' and 'for as long as you practice these things'. There is no set amount. You are to be doing them all the time, and in increasing measure. That's what the requirement for a continuing faith looks like.
But anyway...
Peter says in an ever increasing amount, that's how much work we are to be doing (not to be saved, or maintain salvation, but as the obligation Paul says we have to the Spirit):
2 Peter 1:5-11 NASB
applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
'Increasing' and 'as long as you practice these things'. It's a lifestyle. It's not a legalistic amount, it's the ongoing works produced by an ongoing and growing faith. You and others ask this question because you're looking at it from the wrong point of view. What God requires is our continuing faith. The works that follow are simply the visible footsteps of that continuing faith. So pass it around....the answer to how much (and how long) is 'ever increasing' and 'for as long as you practice these things'. There is no set amount. You are to be doing them all the time, and in increasing measure. That's what the requirement for a continuing faith looks like.
P
Hopefully by now it's clear to all that no one here is teaching that works earn salvation.
Tomorrow morning when we wake up the obligation you and I have to fulfill in order to keep and maintain our righteous status with God....our salvation...is not an obligation to some set number of righteous works. Our obligation is to have faith, the faith that finds it's expression in godly love for others:
Galatians 5:6 NASB
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love.
See, Paul did not say the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is, or can be alone. He said the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that loves. The faith that justifies (all by itself without the help of works) is the faith that works.
Tomorrow morning when we wake up the obligation you and I have to fulfill in order to keep and maintain our righteous status with God....our salvation...is not an obligation to some set number of righteous works. Our obligation is to have faith, the faith that finds it's expression in godly love for others:
Galatians 5:6 NASB
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith working through love.
See, Paul did not say the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is, or can be alone. He said the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that loves. The faith that justifies (all by itself without the help of works) is the faith that works.
YEP....I agree....you should post scripture instead of what you posted and....everything I said is based upon scripture....maybe you should read the bible more....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
AMEN....called a confident expectation of something GUARANTEED (HOPE)....as in eternal life through Christ dia salvation by faith based upon grace....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Instead of being insulting to persons, you should engage them in conversation.
Instead of telling me I should read the Bible more, you should pick a scripture, post it, and base your words on that.
Why should I read the Bible more?
You only speak to biblical scholars?
The Bible I read does not guarantee your salvation.
Paul himself said he worked lest he himself might fall away and become lost.
Being such an expert I'm sure you know the verse.
Trouble is, those reading along may not...
Do you not care about them?
Are you not here to preach the word?
Do you think I'm really here to speak to YOU??
P
The woman who washed Jesus' feet with her hair illustrates for us very well what Paul means when he says the faith that justifies is the faith that loves (works).
Jesus says her sins are forgiven because she loved (him) much. Her love did not earn her his forgiveness. It signified that she has been forgiven. He tells her that her faith has saved her, not her works. It was able to save her because it was alive and able to save, not dead. The accompanying work of love connected to her faith shows her faith to be of the quality that actually did solicit the forgiveness of God. That's why works must accompany faith. Not because it earns God's declaration of righteousness but because that is the footprint that saving faith leaves. If your faith is not leaving those kinds of footprints then you must examine yourself to see if you have a faith that solicited the forgiveness of God.
Saving faith causes you to become what you have received from God. If you aren't displaying in increasing measure that which God gives those he saves then you may not have received what you think you have. But the church will make sure you find non-confrontational, non-judgmental comfort in your works-less dead faith rather than telling you the truth that could save your life.
2 Corinthians 13:5
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
Luke 7:46-50 NASB
she anointed My feet with perfume. 47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
she anointed My feet with perfume. 47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
Jesus says her sins are forgiven because she loved (him) much. Her love did not earn her his forgiveness. It signified that she has been forgiven. He tells her that her faith has saved her, not her works. It was able to save her because it was alive and able to save, not dead. The accompanying work of love connected to her faith shows her faith to be of the quality that actually did solicit the forgiveness of God. That's why works must accompany faith. Not because it earns God's declaration of righteousness but because that is the footprint that saving faith leaves. If your faith is not leaving those kinds of footprints then you must examine yourself to see if you have a faith that solicited the forgiveness of God.
Saving faith causes you to become what you have received from God. If you aren't displaying in increasing measure that which God gives those he saves then you may not have received what you think you have. But the church will make sure you find non-confrontational, non-judgmental comfort in your works-less dead faith rather than telling you the truth that could save your life.
2 Corinthians 13:5
5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
You should study the bolded again....his remark was consistent with becoming unusable in the ministry...not LOST.....your problem is you believe the lie that one can lose their salvation....and those rose colored glasses you wear taints your ability to read the bible in context and make biblically deduced decisions about what it teaches.....
and how did I insult you....I made a comment based upon at least three biblical truths and you come back and mouth about posting scripture with a comment that had ZERO scripture and or NO scriptural references and I responded with a factual statement....if you study as much as you claim then you should know that my original statement referenced at least three biblical truths....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
YEP....I agree....you should post scripture instead of what you posted and....everything I said is based upon scripture....maybe you should read the bible more....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
AMEN....called a confident expectation of something GUARANTEED (HOPE)....as in eternal life through Christ dia salvation by faith based upon grace....
a. Gave the biblical definition of HOPE (underlined)
b. Gave the biblical means of eternal life through Jesus (italicized)
c. Gave the biblical means of salvation by faith based upon GRACE (bolded)
MY whole post was biblical and based upon bible.....what about yours? NOPE not at all....just a mouthy comment FRAN....that's all!
and how did I insult you....I made a comment based upon at least three biblical truths and you come back and mouth about posting scripture with a comment that had ZERO scripture and or NO scriptural references and I responded with a factual statement....if you study as much as you claim then you should know that my original statement referenced at least three biblical truths....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
a. Gave the biblical definition of HOPE (underlined)
b. Gave the biblical means of eternal life through Jesus (italicized)
c. Gave the biblical means of salvation by faith based upon GRACE (bolded)
MY whole post was biblical and based upon bible.....what about yours? NOPE not at all....just a mouthy comment FRAN....that's all!
P
Easily more prevalent at this time in church history is the enemy planting tares who insist dead, works-less faith is the faith that can save you, too. The plantings that don't bear fruit are the tares. They only have the appearance of being a genuine fruit bearing stalk of wheat. But it is only the genuine stalks of wheat that produce the fruited head. Those kernels signifying that they really are stalks of wheat and not similar looking, but fruitless tares. And we know what Jesus said the outcome is of the tares, and what the outcome is of the wheat. But so many people are convinced the fruitless tares will be harvested and brought into the barn too.
Sorry PHart......works to keep is works to get.......and still waiting for those who believe works to get or keep to explain the difference between the works found in believers....and HOW many are required to gain, keep or maintain....
Faithful believers--->works of gold, silver and precious stones
______ believers--->works of wood, hay and stubble
YET both equally saved......so....how do you describe those saved believers who have works of wood, hay and stubble?
How many works are required to gain, keep or maintain salvation..1, 2, 20, 500 .......?
P
You should study the bolded again....his remark was consistent with becoming unusable in the ministry...not LOST.....your problem is you believe the lie that one can lose their salvation....and those rose colored glasses you wear taints your ability to read the bible in context and make biblically deduced decisions about what it teaches.....
and how did I insult you....I made a comment based upon at least three biblical truths and you come back and mouth about posting scripture with a comment that had ZERO scripture and or NO scriptural references and I responded with a factual statement....if you study as much as you claim then you should know that my original statement referenced at least three biblical truths....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
YEP....I agree....you should post scripture instead of what you posted and....everything I said is based upon scripture....maybe you should read the bible more....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
AMEN....called a confident expectation of something GUARANTEED (HOPE)....as in eternal life through Christ dia salvation by faith based upon grace....
a. Gave the biblical definition of HOPE (underlined)
b. Gave the biblical means of eternal life through Jesus (italicized)
c. Gave the biblical means of salvation by faith based upon GRACE (bolded)
MY whole post was biblical and based upon bible.....what about yours? NOPE not at all....just a mouthy comment FRAN....that's all!
and how did I insult you....I made a comment based upon at least three biblical truths and you come back and mouth about posting scripture with a comment that had ZERO scripture and or NO scriptural references and I responded with a factual statement....if you study as much as you claim then you should know that my original statement referenced at least three biblical truths....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
a. Gave the biblical definition of HOPE (underlined)
b. Gave the biblical means of eternal life through Jesus (italicized)
c. Gave the biblical means of salvation by faith based upon GRACE (bolded)
MY whole post was biblical and based upon bible.....what about yours? NOPE not at all....just a mouthy comment FRAN....that's all!
Matthew 13: NASB
36Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
But so many people are convinced their dead, fruitless stalk will be harvested and brought into the barn, not burned.
(Sorry, Chrome won't let me fix this post up, but you get the point....if you have ears to hear).
MAYBE.....yet I am not in that group because I do not push my works as the means of entry....I push JESUS and genuine belief.....and still waiting on one of you guys to answer the questions of post 19495
And I will add....My cousin grows wheat and soy beans...and I plant wheat for deer....I have seen bumper crops and "stalks" that have but 1 kernel of wheat on them.....STILL WHEAT.....
I just read yesterday....Jesus said a CUP of cold water given would not go unnoticed and or unrewarded....like the 1 kernel stalk of wheat....a cup of cold water will not go unnoticed!
And I will add....My cousin grows wheat and soy beans...and I plant wheat for deer....I have seen bumper crops and "stalks" that have but 1 kernel of wheat on them.....STILL WHEAT.....
I just read yesterday....Jesus said a CUP of cold water given would not go unnoticed and or unrewarded....like the 1 kernel stalk of wheat....a cup of cold water will not go unnoticed!
Your whole premise in the first paragraph falls way short....Peter compares the saved to LIVING stones and when we come together we make up a habitation for the Spirit to come down in our midst for the sake of assembly capacity worship....WE do not place any stone into the temple....it is God that gives the increase and PETER makes no reference to DEAD stones coming together, but rather we as LIVING STONES......nice try, but no cigar bro!
I think I can guarantee, these guys do not read the bible enough.Let me think, 1 hour a day or 30 mins, or 10 mins, or 5 mins, or a verse?
Now I try a focus on 4 chapters. And you know what it does to me? It says
Paul loved Jesus and He was passionate how Jesus changed him, at a base
fundamental level, the power of God unto salvation.
Now this morning I was out on the streets with an american friend, witnessing.
We met a socialist, ardent in their belief society will only be changed through the
defeat of capitalism. A christian humanist, someone who believed in loving through
actions but not in Christ and salvation. And we met a woman who had be touched by
a christian camp in her youth, and how that had meant something to her, but now
she wanted something more.
What matters is Jesus moves your heart, He reaches you and dwells with you, and you
know you are loved, for as long as you dwell in His eternal heart.
Now imagine the response. You are boasting, you are parading good works. Nope, I am
saying unless God speaks to your heart, and you know Him there is just space, emptiness.
There is only abiding with Him or darkness. Find cleansing in your life and you will find
reality. Sin is ravaging peoples lives, walking within emotional constraints, not understanding
the limitations of how emotions work and how they work, either repressing them or they run
riot.
God has made us His people, victorious, overcomers, the redeemed of the Lord. So let us
walk in the Spirit, and not fall under the flesh.
I think I can guarantee, these guys do not read the bible enough.Let me think, 1 hour a day or 30 mins, or 10 mins, or 5 mins, or a verse?
Now .