Was God dead for three days?

[jasonfight7]

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2).

" He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." - 2 Corinthians 5:21

If God was in the flesh, Jesus, and died for three days, Does this mean that God, Creator of Heavens and Earth, dies as well?

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Originally Posted by jasonfight7

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2).

" He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." - 2 Corinthians 5:21

If God was in the flesh, Jesus, and died for three days, Does this mean that God, Creator of Heavens and Earth, dies as well?

You need to realize that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. By that, I do not mean that Jesus is the Father, and I do not mean the Father is the Spirit, or any other variation of the such. Literally, God is three distinct Persons. If you turn to Isaiah 48, beginning at v. 9:

For the sake of My name I delay My wrath,
And for My praise I restrain it for you,
In order not to cut you off.

Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another.

Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

Surely My hand founded the earth,
And My right hand spread out the heavens;
When I call to them, they stand together.

Assemble, all of you, and listen!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.

I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him,
I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful.

Come near to Me, listen to this:
From the first I have not spoken in secret,
From the time it took place, I was there
And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.

In Isaiah 48, we have 'the first and the last,' the Creator ('Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens') speaking, yet, He says in v. 16, that He and the Spirit were sent by God. So we have God sending God, and God. We have three Persons here. We have the 'Lord GOD' that has sent 'Me,' and 'His Spirit.' But yet this very same 'Me' is the Creator, the first and the last. Here in Isaiah 48 we have the pre-incarnate Christ speaking. We have the Father, sending the Word (Christ), and the Spirit.

Likewise, turn to Genesis 1:26, which says, "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" Who is the 'Us'? Who is the 'Our'? God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. John 17:5, Jesus says, 'Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.'

It is clear, that there are three distinct Persons, and they're all called God. For the sake of time, I won't list every verse that proclaims each, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God, otherwise, I'd be here for hours. 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17 proclaims that the Father is God. John 1:1-14, Hebrews 1:8-12 proclaim that Jesus is God. And Acts 5:1-4, Hebrews 3:7-11 proclaims that the Holy Spirit is God. Though, they're three distinct Person, Deuteronomy 6:4 proclaims that God is One. Not three separate Gods, but One God. How can that be? How can three Persons be One God?

I think the best illustration that helps paint the 'Trinity,' is found in Galatians 3:28. It'll help give you that mental image of what I mean by 'three distinct Persons, but One God.' Galatians 3:28 says, 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.' Likewise, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One in the Godhead, One God. Another way of looking at it is pictured in Mark 10:6-8, which states, ‘But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.’ The Greek term 'echad,' which is the term used in Deuteronomy 6:4 for 'one,' means, 'compound unity,' and is the same term used in Galatians 3:28, when it says, 'here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus,' as well as in Mark 10:6-8, 'But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.’

What's even more interesting is that Scripture declares that not only the Father raised Jesus from the dead, but the Spirit also raised Christ from the dead, and even goes to say that Christ raised His own self up from the dead. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work in unity, together, and not separately:

Galatians 1:1, “Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),”

John 2:19-21, “Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ The Jews then said, ‘It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?’ But He was speaking of the temple of His body.”

Romans 8:11, “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”

With that said, I'll conclude with John 17:11, which states, "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are."

[mpaper345]

God cannot die,and God will never die.

The humanity of God,the man Christ Jesus died and was resurrected.

The Bible says our mediator is the man Christ Jesus.

Our Saviour is the man Christ Jesus.

Only a sinless man can approach a holy God on man's behalf.

No man is sinless so God manifest Himself in flesh,which means He manifested all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and gave us His sinless human body as a sacrifice for our sins.

God reconciled sinful mankind back to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony,and all who have the Spirit is one with the Father as Jesus is one with the Father.

The man Christ Jesus died and was resurrected,the permanent bodily manifestation of the one true God,and now the man Christ Jesus is a glorified body.

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour(Isaiah 43:10-11).

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting(Micah 5:2)

Jesus is definetely not a created God for God said there would be no Gods created after Him,and Jesus will be form everlasting,which means He will have no beginning.
Jesus is the one true God.


8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power(Colossians 2:8-10).

Do not let any person fool you,Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead in a bodily manifestation.

Jesus is God.

When the Bible says that God was manifest in the flesh it means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,making the man Christ Jesus the personal human body of God,which is a permanent manifestation and the only way we will see the invisible God in heaven.

It does not make Jesus another God but God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ,where the saints have partial attributes.

The Bible says that the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain God.God cannot fit in a human body,for He would be outside that body.

God manifest in the flesh means God manifest all His atributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.

The Bible says that God is in all and through all.God cannot be separated,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.

Jesus is not another God but God giving all His atrtributes to the man Christ Jesus,allowing the man Christ Jesus to have all the fulness of God,where the saints have partial attributes.

The only way we will see the invisible God is in the person of Jesus Christ,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus,as God the Father shines through the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus and lights the New Jerusalem.

Jesus is not another God,but the bodily manifestation of God the Father,and God's visible relationship to the saints,where the Holy Spirit is God's invisible relationship to the saints.

Before God created anything He is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God.The Son is the man Christ Jesus.The Spirit in the Son,the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distiction of persons.

Father and Son is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus.

The reason that the Son can be in the beginning with the Father,is because He is a plan of God in His mind to have the Son born in nthe future,so it was the same as the Son was in the beginning,because God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later.

The Son was in the beginning,although the Son was not born until 4000 years later.

God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened.

Take a tub of water and submerge a cup in that water,the water fills the cup and the water in the cup is still connected to the water in the tub.
That is like Jesus,God's Spirit cannot be separated.The Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God.It does not make Jesus another God but God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and is God's personal human body that He will keep for all eternity,and the Spirit in the man Christ Jesus is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.

The name of the Father and Son is Jesus,for Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,so Jesus is the name of God the Father and the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son and Holy Ghost.Jesus is telling the disciples that He is the one true God,that created all things,manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and dwells in the saints by His Spirit.


7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake(John 14:7-11).


23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. 30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God(John 16:23-30).

Now they understood that Jesus is the bodily manifestation of God the Father and Jesus will go up to heaven and sit on the throne as God the Father in the glorifed body of His Son,the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the Father.


3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads(Revelation 22:3-4).

There is only one throne in heaven and one who sits on the throne,who is Jesus who is both God and the Lamb.

Jesus on the right hand of God means that God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power for a certain period of time,and when the the man Christ Jesus' enemies are conquered the Son,the man Christ Jesus,shall submit to God that God may be all in all.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).

People are not honoring Jesus for who He really is,The everlasting Father,and make a trinity out of the 3 titles to represent the 3 relationships God has with His children.

Father-parent to the saints.
Son-God's visible relationship to the saints.
Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints.

Not 3 Gods in one God but 3 relationships God has with His children designated by titles and it is God who is a Holy Spirit doing it all.

Matt

[resurrection33]

God was never dead.

[jasonfight7]

When talking about God, some people don't like to consider the possibility that God could die. How could God cease to exist? As an infinite, immortal spirit Being, He couldn't. But if He volunteered to become a human being and to possess all the attributes of human nature and a physical existence, then He could die. And indeed He did die- and when he died, He was really dead. If He wasn't really dead, in the same way we would be dead if someone killed us, then it couldn't really be genuine substitution-His life is ours.

Not only did Jesus die, But He also could have died the death from which there is no resurrection- the death of a sinner without any redemption. His salvation is through the Father in whom He had complete confidence.

Was there ever a doubt in the outcome? There was none - not because He couldn't fail, but because He and the Father knew what each could do and would do. The strength of God is the greatest strength there is, and the faith of Jesus was absolute. It is the same faith through which we are saved. Galatians 2:20

[wattie]

Why seperate Jesus from the Holy Spirit and the Father?

logically if there are seperate beings and they all divine.. that is 3 Gods!!!!!!

The best explanation I have seen is the God is one being who expresses Himself equally in 3 essences or substances.

Our own bodies are like this.. and we are made in His image. We have a mind, body and soul.. yet are one being.

When Jesus is talking to the Father.. this is like God's mind communicating with His body




Jesus being God.. well..

He claimed to be the one that Abraham saw when Abraham saw God. And He claimed to be the one who spoke to Moses at the burning bush. Who is that? It is none other than the God of the Old Testament.. the Jewish national God.. the God of Genesis.

Also technically.. all that died was His body.... He descended to the earth and released the captives and set them free straight after dieing in the body.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Jesus.. after dieing in body.. descended to the earth and released the captive saints in hades and resurrected them.. and those saints appeared alive, to proclaim Jesus. He then returned to the body.. and raised it.. appeared to many people risen.. and then ascended to heaven.

Jesus was not just a man.. He was God and is God now.. equal with the Father and Holy Spirit as one being.

When I get to heaven I will be meeting God. Not the Holy Spirit, the Father, and Jesus as three seperate Gods

[MahogonySnail]

God was not dead. His Son was. The Father never died, because the Father was the one who raised Jesus. Jesus never raised Himself. Because He was dead, he couldn't.

[silverwind]

A great video for this is Perry Stone's video on 'the Mystery of the Blood of Christ'... I quite enjoyed listening to it and it made sense and helped me understand better.

[jasonfight7]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

God was not dead. His Son was. The Father never died, because the Father was the one who raised Jesus. Jesus never raised Himself. Because He was dead, he couldn't.

The question remains : How was Jesus God? If Jesus was God, then who was the Father he spoke of so often? How could Jesus and the Father both be God at the same time?

Originally Posted by jasonfight7

When talking about God, some people don't like to consider the possibility that God could die. How could God cease to exist? As an infinite, immortal spirit Being, He couldn't. But if He volunteered to become a human being and to possess all the attributes of human nature and a physical existence, then He could die. And indeed He did die- and when he died, He was really dead. If He wasn't really dead, in the same way we would be dead if someone killed us, then it couldn't really be genuine substitution-His life is ours.

Not only did Jesus die, But He also could have died the death from which there is no resurrection- the death of a sinner without any redemption. His salvation is through the Father in whom He had complete confidence.

Was there ever a doubt in the outcome? There was none - not because He couldn't fail, but because He and the Father knew what each could do and would do. The strength of God is the greatest strength there is, and the faith of Jesus was absolute. It is the same faith through which we are saved. Galatians 2:20

I agree that Jesus died. I disagree that death is the cessation of existance.

[MahogonySnail]

The question remains : How was Jesus God? If Jesus was God, then who was the Father he spoke of so often? How could Jesus and the Father both be God at the same time?

Jesus was not God. He was the Son of God. Or God "the Son".

[jasonfight7]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

Jesus was not God. He was the Son of God. Or God "the Son".

Jesus is God and I can give many reason to back up my claim.

1.God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever

2. God is the only Saviour.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11

Jesus is the only Saviour.
...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4

3. God is the first and the last.
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4

Jesus is the first and the last.
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

4. God forgives sins.
[T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3

Jesus forgives sins.
Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5

5.God is our redeemer.
[T]hou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16

Jesus redeemed us.
the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14

6. God is Messiah.
...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6

Jesus is Messiah.
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26

7.God heals all diseases.
Bless the LORD...who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2

Jesus heals all diseases.
[Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16

That was only sevens things and yet there more....

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory." - --1 Timothy 3:16

[GospelOnly]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

God was not dead. His Son was. The Father never died, because the Father was the one who raised Jesus. Jesus never raised Himself. Because He was dead, he couldn't.

It's really simple isn't it? It's a pity people make the simple things complicated.

[phil36]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

Jesus was not God. He was the Son of God. Or God "the Son".

Jesus is fully God and fully Human.

I think I know what you are trying to say, is that, Jesus is not God the Father, but rather God the son. your statement above could be taken as you believe Jesus is not God, by the very fact that you stated that 'Jesus is not God'.

You have to remember that not all people, although they believe in the trinity, don't really understand it. your comment may confuse rather than clarify.

Phil

[resurrection33]

Originally Posted by jasonfight7

When talking about God, some people don't like to consider the possibility that God could die. How could God cease to exist? As an infinite, immortal spirit Being, He couldn't. But if He volunteered to become a human being and to possess all the attributes of human nature and a physical existence, then He could die. And indeed He did die- and when he died, He was really dead. If He wasn't really dead, in the same way we would be dead if someone killed us, then it couldn't really be genuine substitution-His life is ours.

Not only did Jesus die, But He also could have died the death from which there is no resurrection- the death of a sinner without any redemption. His salvation is through the Father in whom He had complete confidence.

Was there ever a doubt in the outcome? There was none - not because He couldn't fail, but because He and the Father knew what each could do and would do. The strength of God is the greatest strength there is, and the faith of Jesus was absolute. It is the same faith through which we are saved. Galatians 2:20

When we die, we don’t really die—we pass on to the resurrection. Jesus was never really dead, I don’t think.

[GospelOnly]

Originally Posted by phil36

Jesus is fully God and fully Human.

I think I know what you are trying to say, is that, Jesus is not God the Father, but rather God the son. your statement above could be taken as you believe Jesus is not God, by the very fact that you stated that 'Jesus is not God'.

You have to remember that not all people, although they believe in the trinity, don't really understand it. your comment may confuse rather than clarify.

Phil

The statement Jesus is fully God and Fully Human is a contradiction in terms and logic.

Spirit cannot put on flesh. God is spirit, Jesus according to all scripture was fully flesh and never said to be anything else. If Jesus was not fully flesh his sacrifice is void.

You are correct in that trinitarians do not understand how that can even work. There lies the problem, even the re introducers of trinity, the catholics in their own catechism admit they don't understand how it can be, and that they just blindly believe it.

Blind faith is pointless.. knowledge leads to salvation, one cannot claim they don't understand a theory and claim it can save. one must KNOW what it is they believe so it is not false faith.

jesus was born human like all of us and grew and died and did all things humans do,
Yhvh, cannot die period. The whole point of Jesus being sacrifice worthy is that he was like all of us and could have sinned but chose not to. If jesus was god, which is totally illogical, then what use is a sacrifice of something that is superhuman.

[MahogonySnail]

Jesus is fully God and fully Human.

I think I know what you are trying to say, is that, Jesus is not God the Father, but rather God the son. your statement above could be taken as you believe Jesus is not God, by the very fact that you stated that 'Jesus is not God'.

You have to remember that not all people, although they believe in the trinity, don't really understand it. your comment may confuse rather than clarify.

To clarify - when a person says "Jesus is God". If they think that Jesus is the Father, they are very much mistaken. But when we say "Jesus is God", it is always implied that we know that Jesus is the Son of God. If we think Jesus is God, as in, the Father, then you aren't Trinitarian but Oneness.

[jasonfight7]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

To clarify - when a person says "Jesus is God". If they think that Jesus is the Father, they are very much mistaken. But when we say "Jesus is God", it is always implied that we know that Jesus is the Son of God. If we think Jesus is God, as in, the Father, then you aren't Trinitarian but Oneness.

Jesus is 100 percent man but at this same time He 100 percent God. He both God-Man. When a person call Jesus the Son of God, they are referring to Jesus as God, not God's Son.

God

*Father
*Son
* Holy Ghost

All these three to One. Even the Apostle John understand this and He spent times with Jesus about three years.

So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One - 1 John 5:7

God told Abrahan He will come in the flesh, God told Moses He would come in the flesh, God told King David He will come in the flesh, God told Isaiah, He will come in the flesh, God told Jeremiah He will come in the flesh, and so on and on. But they couldn't understand what God was talking about. As they knew that the Messiah will come but when they put the pieces together he made clear to them.

The amazing things is that Jesus claimed that He was the Rock of the Old Testament. Even Apostle Paul made a clear statement that Christ Jesus is The Rock. (1 Cor. 10:1-4)

So when the prophets of the OT talking to God, they were actually talking Jesus. Jesus was the one who told Moses to led these people out of Egypt. Jesus was the one who led the people wandering around for about 40 years and so on.

Jesus claimed to be the I Am of the OT, He identified with YHWH. Just like God, Jesus also have many names.

[GospelOnly]

Jesus is 100 percent man but at this same time He 100 percent God. He both God-Man. When a person call Jesus the Son of God, they are referring to Jesus as God, not God's Son.

Fortunately the lack of logic in these kind of claims, give more faith to bible believers. Mathematics dose not allow for two lots of something being 100%. It is impossible and illogical to have something 100% this as well as 100% that. You can't have a dog that is 100% dog and also 100% cat. These are well known mathematical blunders of the trinity belief system. ---

Also the statement 'when a peson calls jesus the son of god they are refering to jesus as god, not gods son, is just not correct at all.--
When I and all christians call jesus the son of god, that is exactly what I am meaning.. 'the SON of god'', I am in no way at all implying jesus is god at all.
If jesus was god, he wouldnt need to be called the son of god, he would just call himself god.. And he NEVER does, he always says he is the 'son' of god. How can a son be his own father? more lack of logic in the trinity system.

Jesus never claimed he was god, He always said he was the son of god, a father cannot be a son its ridiculous.
Also God does not = God , Son, HS. God simply means good in old english. The father is the father(allpowerful spirit being). the son is the son (totally different being, ie flesh and not all powerful, and HS is simply the fathers power to do the things he does, it is definately not a person.
===============

Interesting you use my very favourite book in the bible to try and explain trinity. Yet as the trinity churches teach their followers from an early age, they deliberately always leave out verse 8, when quoting 1john 5:7,
To understand this passage, the whole chapter needs to be studied very carefully, it is a very long study that connects to many other scriptures backing up that jesus is not god. In fact John of all bible writers spoke much about the falseness of trinity and how this belief is against the true god. back to 1john 5:7 AND 8 though.
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

v 7. is clearly saying there is a different 3, to verse 8 for starters... and names the first 3, then v8 goes onto name a different 3. Clearly this is showing they are talking about a 'different being'.

v7 is saying the 3 that bear 'record' in HEAVEN, is the being consisting of ..The father (god himself), the word/logos (the plan of the world the gospel) NOT as trins are brainwashed to believe to be 'jesus', and the Holy ghost/spirit, which is simply the fathers power

So basically this verse is just talking about some of the things that are the make up of yhvh(the father) or god if you like. Don't let the fact that because there are 3 mentioned that proves any kind of trinity. infact to use that logic you will see in aminute there is more than 3 so that argument is not on.

v 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

v 8 On the other hand is telling a totally different story. firstly the 3 mentioned here are not bearing 'record' as the father does, but are infact bearing WITNESS. a totally different concept. Also this witness is bearing on EARTH, not in heaven. otherwords the one witnessing is from Earth not Heaven, So flesh not spirit. Which leads into the next part which explains the 3 different things concerning this witness. The SPIRIT (which is the spirit of life given to all humans from the start of life), The WATER, AND THE BLOOD. (these 2 have many meanings, but for now, they are the makeup of the human body water and blood)

So while v 7 is showing a spirit being that dwells in HEAVEN that is all knowing that has a plan/gospel for the Earth and is powerful spirit bearing RECORD. v 8 is showig a totally different story, ie showing a WITNESS of the one in v7, that dwells on Earth and is not spirit but flesh and blood.

If one reads the whole chapter or indeed the whole of johns writings he is against such teaching as trinity

It is amazing the amount of times I have had v7 quoted at me to try and prove a trinity, yet when v8 is put to them they have no answers or let pride of being incorrect answer something illogical as to not feel silly. It is really decieving at best.

I'll answer the second part in a different post

[GospelOnly]

Originally Posted by jasonfight7

God told Abrahan He will come in the flesh, God told Moses He would come in the flesh, God told King David He will come in the flesh, God told Isaiah, He will come in the flesh, God told Jeremiah He will come in the flesh, and so on and on. But they couldn't understand what God was talking about. As they knew that the Messiah will come but when they put the pieces together he made clear to them.

The amazing things is that Jesus claimed that He was the Rock of the Old Testament. Even Apostle Paul made a clear statement that Christ Jesus is The Rock. (1 Cor. 10:1-4)

So when the prophets of the OT talking to God, they were actually talking Jesus. Jesus was the one who told Moses to led these people out of Egypt. Jesus was the one who led the people wandering around for about 40 years and so on.

Jesus claimed to be the I Am of the OT, He identified with YHWH. Just like God, Jesus also have many names.

Ok first part I don't see the problem Jesus DID come in the flesh.. He was born in the flesh, 2000 years ago.. How much more coming in flesh can there be. If jesus was around before his birth, the whole bible is nonsense. flesh lives and dies. if jesus was before his birth, for one it makes no logical sense at all, and 2, it would mean he was spirit first unless he was thousands of years old when he was born. So if he was spirit before he was born..it goes against scriptues, as spirit cannot but on flesh, spirit is immortal (can NOT die) so why would jesus go from a nondying being and be demoted to a human which is dying. makes absolutely no sense and contradicts all doctrines of the scriptures.

The biggest problems new believers have is understanding immortal and mortal and really grasping the meaning. immortal cannot but on mortal.. only mortal can put on immortality. you cant be spirit then turn into flesh.. you can only be flesh and turn into spirit. otherwise the bible is a joke in all areas.

if jesus was immortal as your suggesting, then he couldnt ever die..and history and bible tells he did die. a REAL death.. not a make believe one. So if he died (and had to for our sacrifice) then there is no way possible he was ever spirit (immortal) beforehand. it contradicts everything.

As for your other suggestions... RE....Jesus talking to peple in the old testament times.. this because of the facts above is impossible, and silly at best.
1. Jesus wasn't born then according to the bible..and as said..couldnt have been spirit before hand and ever be human in the future. just like a spiritual angel cannot become a human. as angels are spirit and cant die so they cannot become humans to die.

2. There is no need for jesus to be anywhere in OT times..what does it benefit? it goes against the true gospel, and it doesnt acheive anything having jesus back there..the only thing it does putting a jesus back then is make all other scriptues contradict. ie his birth, death and resurection.
What is the point of jesus wandering around the wilderness. The bible says jesus came for the lost sheep of israel. They werent even around then, there wern't even any jews back then.

3.the term I AM, is not a 'name' and besides if studied, god never says I am that i am..he says i will be that i will be. So I Am is not even correct. Jesus never claimed to be god..on the contrary he always said he was the Son of god. never god. If jesus thought he was god he would have prayed to himself.


and you yourself show you arnt real clear on what you believe as you said this.''Just like God, Jesus also have many names''
Jesus also??? seems your implying jesus is NOT god, as he has many names just like god does.

thats like me saying I have many names like my brother has, yet we are the same person.

I'm not having a go at you btw.. just trying to show you the trickery of the trinity system..

As john says when he is talking about the catholic system in revelation, he refers to them as the whore of babylon.. in other words, the catholics brought back into existence the pagan beliefs of trinity that the babylonians had in the time of Nimrod. he likens the whore..(catholics) and their daughters (protestants/other trinity groups) as the abomination against god.

one to avoid at all costs. There is nothing biblical in trinity belief. and the use of symbolic verses in revelation etc, seem to be the only verses trinitarians can find to try and prove what john also called the antichrist spirit.

cheers