all works are not created equal

[eternally-gratefull]

Would you care to elaborate further, about being a doer of the word and not a hearer only? I know what a hearer only is, but what does a doer of the word do?

What does a doer of the word do? Please tell me you are joking?

Is a person who gets baptized to be saved a doer of the word. Or is a person who gets baptized because they trusted God to save them, now they want to do the work of God a doer of the word?

Both did the same act, Yet one is a hearer only, and one is an actual doer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Go. Go and live your life trusting that Christ is leading you, guiding you, opening and closing doors before you as you go. It is not the nature of what we do that determines whether it is a good work or not, it is the origin.

Yes, two people can both be obedient to laws, and doing the same works, while one is a doer (acts of faith) and one is just playing a game.

 

[know1]

This makes no sense, Faith is not a work, So how can you even compare the two? Faith is not even a reward, IT TO IS A GIFT. [/QUOTE]
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If believing is called a work by Jesus, then why is faith, which requires action, not called a work?

No, Salvation is made only AFTER we have faith. Abraham was saved BEFORE he did one act, He trusted God and God accredited to his account righteousness.

That is not entirely accurate sir.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

According to James, the scripture that says Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, was not FULFILLED UNTIL he offered up Isaac on the altar. Again, Abraham was justified by his works of faith, not by simply believing.

Thats not a work, That is trusting in GODS work.

What we do, regardless of how small or minute it may be, it is a work just the same. The work accompanies the trusting of God.

Paul said Abraham was saved NOT BY WORKS, else he has something to gain (a reward)

Abraham trusted in Gods work, not his own, thats the point. James was speaking to hearers not doers. You can CONFESS all you want, if your faith is dead it means nothing.

When you say when one's faith is dead, are you referring to that person's faith as being nonexistent?

 

[know1]

Go. Go and live your life trusting that Christ is leading you, guiding you, opening and closing doors before you as you go. It is not the nature of what we do that determines whether it is a good work or not, it is the origin.

Can you give me any specific acts of this living faith? I ask because anyone, even wolves in sheep's clothing, can and do tell others about Christ's work on the cross. What sets your acts apart from say someone who does nothing but trust that God is leading them through the day, and whatever happens or takes place, then it was God who did it or ushered it in? Jesus said you shall know them, the wolves in sheep's clothing, from the true sheep, by their fruit. Could you tell me anything that God does through you that would set you apart from the deceiver?

 

[know1]

What does a doer of the word do? Please tell me you are joking?

Is a person who gets baptized to be saved a doer of the word. Or is a person who gets baptized because they trusted God to save them, now they want to do the work of God a doer of the word?

Both did the same act, Yet one is a hearer only, and one is an actual doer.

That would depend on what the person was taught and believes. One might be more accurate than the other, but both acted on the word they both heard and believed.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Can you give me any specific acts of this living faith? I ask because anyone, even wolves in sheep's clothing, can and do tell others about Christ's work on the cross. What sets your acts apart from say someone who does nothing but trust that God is leading them through the day, and whatever happens or takes place, then it was God who did it or ushered it in? Jesus said you shall know them, the wolves in sheep's clothing, from the true sheep, by their fruit. Could you tell me anything that God does through you that would set you apart from the deceiver?

Two men doing identically the same thing may at the same time, by their identical act, be demonstrating two different principles of behavior, which are diametrically opposed to each other. The difference being is one is functioning by human effort, the other by the Spirit. - Ian Thomas

Could you tell the difference?

 

[PeterJens]

That would depend on what the person was taught and believes. One might be more accurate than the other, but both acted on the word they both heard and believed.

I am trying to define theologically what could be dead works.
A work or action either helps someone or is neutral or is sin.

The term dead works implies a action done by a believer is good if called by the Spirit,
but dead if not.

I think this is not actually a biblical idea, or can be really described.

The problem is simple.

Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward.
Matt 10:41

Welcoming a messenger of God gets a reward. So this good work is not evil or punished
or disgarded, it is rewarded. So dead works do not exist, but works without rewards do.

Cornelius who was not a Jew, was told this
"Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God."
Acts 10:4

So good works are counted and looked at by God whoever does them.
They are not dead.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I am trying to define theologically what could be dead works.
A work or action either helps someone or is neutral or is sin.

The term dead works implies a action done by a believer is good if called by the Spirit,
but dead if not.

I think this is not actually a biblical idea, or can be really described.

The problem is simple.

Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward.
Matt 10:41

Welcoming a messenger of God gets a reward. So this good work is not evil or punished
or disgarded, it is rewarded. So dead works do not exist, but works without rewards do.

Cornelius who was not a Jew, was told this
"Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God."
Acts 10:4

So good works are counted and looked at by God whoever does them.
They are not dead.

Well, that has been your humanistic definition from day one. So why pretend you are looking for a theological definition?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That would depend on what the person was taught and believes. One might be more accurate than the other, but both acted on the word they both heard and believed.

No Actually it does not depend on what a person was taught, and what they believe, It depends Gods truth. If they were taught wrong, it is their problem for not doing what Paul said to do and test each spirit to see if the doctrine s from God.

One was a work of self righteousness, Not a work of faith. (he did it to save self)

the other was a work of faith in God.. (He did it because he was saved, and out of gratitude and love for God)

 

[PeterJens]

Well, that has been your humanistic definition from day one. So why pretend you are looking for a theological definition?

I have demonstrated that non-believers God listened to and honoured their behaviour.
When Nineveh repented He did not judge them, they did a good thing and avoid judgement.

Now I am bringing biblical examples which show "dead works" theology is not biblical, you
have just said I am being humanistic, which is a philosophical response not biblical so
irrelevant and untrue.

But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good.
1 Sam 15:9

This is a real humanistic response to Gods command, some would call a good thing
using the resources available and not wasting them.

But this was sin, against Gods direct command. Amen.
So I am not a humanist, but of follower of my King and looking for biblical definitions
of ideas.

It appears you are not that interested in this, or of showing me how dead works is
actually right.

Now if you think works by anyone brings salvation, or I hold to this, and balancing of
good works against bad, then you are mistaken and confused about talking about
true righteousness and God and what is good in the way people behave.

Sins problem is it destroys the good and makes it worthless, not the good by itself
is evil.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Matt 23:23

Pharisees did ok on spices but not the more important things. So here is Jesus praising
one aspect but saying it was all destroyed by their failure or sin in other areas.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I have demonstrated that non-believers God listened to and honoured their behaviour.
When Nineveh repented He did not judge them, they did a good thing and avoid judgement.

Now I am bringing biblical examples which show "dead works" theology is not biblical, you
have just said I am being humanistic, which is a philosophical response not biblical so
irrelevant and untrue.

But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good.
1 Sam 15:9

This is a real humanistic response to Gods command, some would call a good thing
using the resources available and not wasting them.

But this was sin, against Gods direct command. Amen.
So I am not a humanist, but of follower of my King and looking for biblical definitions
of ideas.

It appears you are not that interested in this, or of showing me how dead works is
actually right.

Now if you think works by anyone brings salvation, or I hold to this, and balancing of
good works against bad, then you are mistaken and confused about talking about
true righteousness and God and what is good in the way people behave.

Sins problem is it destroys the good and makes it worthless, not the good by itself
is evil.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Matt 23:23

Pharisees did ok on spices but not the more important things. So here is Jesus praising
one aspect but saying it was all destroyed by their failure or sin in other areas.

Like I said, why pretend you are looking for a theological definition?

 

[know1]

No Actually it does not depend on what a person was taught, and what they believe, It depends Gods truth. If they were taught wrong, it is their problem for not doing what Paul said to do and test each spirit to see if the doctrine s from God.

One was a work of self righteousness, Not a work of faith. (he did it to save self)

the other was a work of faith in God.. (He did it because he was saved, and out of gratitude and love for God)

Perhaps you haven't understood Mk 11:23. Faith is simply acting on what one believes. It doesn't matter if it is the truth or not. One example of this would be about 30 years ago, I had a girlfriend who went on a vacation with my parents and I to the Grand Canyon. She flew out and when she got there she had picked up a nasty chest cold. I never had a problem getting any cold or flu until then. And that was because I believe without any doubt, and confessed repeatedly, that I wouldn't get it. I never got even the slightest of symptoms, because I did what Jesus said, without knowing it. I didn't know I was acting on a law of God. So my faith kept me from getting a cold only because I never believed she had a cold in the first place. Does that sound stupid or what? But that is the truth.
My wife drove a car twice without fuel because she believed God would not leave her stranded. And let's not forget that both death and life is in the power of the tongue and they shall eat the fruit thereof.
If I take medication because I believe it will help, is that acting on a form of faith? Yes, it is.
If I feel like I am coming down with a cold and I go and buy medication to make the symptoms go away, am I acting in faith. Yes.
Again, faith is acting on what one believes, regardless of whether or not it is the truth.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Please read post 20. I tried again to explain the work of faith, and let me know, if you would, if you at least understood it.

Yes, I very much enjoyed that post when I read it earlier!
But the other poster seemed to be saying we are not saved by faith.
Here is how I understand the verse in my mind: You have been saved by the kindness of God through faith and that faith was a gift to you so there should never be any boasting because the faith was a gift.

He and I had a conversation about this very verse a few months ago in which he saw the gift being spoken of to be Gods' grace(kindness and mercy and favor) but he saw the faith as his own. In other words, the "and that not of yourselves" he thought to be speaking of Gods grace, but not speaking of the faith.

So I thought I saw a slight difference in how he was now seeing it and so wanted to hear what he thought, because if his understanding of it had changed, I imagined he would have said, yes, her faith saved her, but that's no cause for boasting because the faith was a gift of God.

But instead, I just confused everyone. Which they are all pretty much used to anyways so...HAHA!!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The changing of the truth to a lie is almost always just a subtle twist on the truth. Such as the twist that changes the works that will naturally accompany faith in Jesus Christ by those who are justified, to faith plus my works is what justifies me.

You know what was interesting for me? I did a word study a few years ago on all the opening words of Genesis. I looked up all the roots and all. I came up with an understanding that in the part where it says, and the darkness He called night, it actually appeared to be saying: and the darkness He called a twisting away from the light...(this was in the very first part, before the sun and moon were created).

 

[FreeNChrist]

You know what was interesting for me? I did a word study a few years ago on all the opening words of Genesis. I looked up all the roots and all. I came up with an understanding that in the part where it says, and the darkness He called night, it actually appeared to be saying: and the darkness He called a twisting away from the light...(this was in the very first part, before the sun and moon were created).

I hope you are not implying that the twisting done by the enemy is the same as or somehow made of no account by the conclusions drawn from your personal study of Genesis.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I hope you are not implying that the twisting done by the enemy is the same as or somehow made of no account by the conclusions drawn from your personal study of Genesis.

Umm...huh?

 

[FreeNChrist]

Umm...huh?

How does your post relate to mine?

 

[know1]

Yes, I very much enjoyed that post when I read it earlier!
But the other poster seemed to be saying we are not saved by faith.
Here is how I understand the verse in my mind: You have been saved by the kindness of God through faith and that faith was a gift to you so there should never be any boasting because the faith was a gift.

He and I had a conversation about this very verse a few months ago in which he saw the gift being spoken of to be Gods' grace(kindness and mercy and favor) but he saw the faith as his own. In other words, the "and that not of yourselves" he thought to be speaking of Gods grace, but not speaking of the faith.

So I thought I saw a slight difference in how he was now seeing it and so wanted to hear what he thought, because if his understanding of it had changed, I imagined he would have said, yes, her faith saved her, but that's no cause for boasting because the faith was a gift of God.

But instead, I just confused everyone. Which they are all pretty much used to anyways so...HAHA!!

My posts on this thread are mostly about what works of faith are, because my understanding of faith differs from, I think, EVERYONE ELSE's. And that's no exaggeration either. To some, if not many, I am considered a heretic concerning the gospel. The reason why I find works of faith to be important is because it helps define what faith is. And I have said this many times before, most don't seem to know what faith is or how it works. To most I suppose, just the thought that God is leading them through each day, is faith enough. Most don't know that their own faith has caused themselves and their loved ones harm and sufferings. I have argue about faith for years with scripture, only for other to counter with absolutely nothing but insults, and that was good enough for the so called bible believers. I know what I am talking about, but when no one can give even a single verse to support their argument, which happens to be contrary to what I was saying, what would that say to those who know and love the truth?
As for what I see faith as being, it is a spirit. Yup, that's it in a nut shell. The bible calls it a spirit, so I see it as a spirit. "And we having the same spirit of faith..." All abilities and gifts from God are spirits of and from the Holy Ghost. It is written that "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets", because the prophet prophesies through the spirit that is in them, just like the spirit of divination that gave the young lady the ability to "divine", until Paul cast it out. And yes, I did say it is a spirit other than the holy spirit. Does the bible refer to the spirit in the prophets as the Holy Spirit/Ghost? No, it doesn't. And why would it? Would you say the Holy Spirit is subject to us?
How faith works is another matter entirely.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

How does your post relate to mine?

Well...you were explaining how changing the truth to a lie was done by a subtle twist.
So this is like...changing light (truth) into darkness (untruth) by a subtle twist.
And in Genesis, it does not say God created darkness and it does not say that He declared darkness to be good. Darkness just appears to have been present, covering the face of the deep.

Then He says let there be light and sees that the light is good - and He separates the light from the darkness.
This light and darkness is many days before the sun and moon were created, so they aren't referring to the planets, which weren't created yet.

Then we read in John and find out this light is the uncreated light.
So the darkness is satan in my opinion.

So when I did my word study, from what I recall, I came up with something a bit like this: and the light He called brilliant and the darkness He called a twisting away from the brilliant. Going on memory there.

And so I saw a connection with your saying a lie was a subtle twist away from truth.
But it's no biggie, just a connection of sorts that I saw.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

My posts on this thread are mostly about what works of faith are, because my understanding of faith differs from, I think, EVERYONE ELSE's. And that's no exaggeration either. To some, if not many, I am considered a heretic concerning the gospel. The reason why I find works of faith to be important is because it helps define what faith is. And I have said this many times before, most don't seem to know what faith is or how it works. To most I suppose, just the thought that God is leading them through each day, is faith enough. Most don't know that their own faith has caused themselves and their loved ones harm and sufferings. I have argue about faith for years with scripture, only for other to counter with absolutely nothing but insults, and that was good enough for the so called bible believers. I know what I am talking about, but when no one can give even a single verse to support their argument, which happens to be contrary to what I was saying, what would that say to those who know and love the truth?
As for what I see faith as being, it is a spirit. Yup, that's it in a nut shell. The bible calls it a spirit, so I see it as a spirit. "And we having the same spirit of faith..." All abilities and gifts from God are spirits of and from the Holy Ghost. It is written that "the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets", because the prophet prophesies through the spirit that is in them, just like the spirit of divination that gave the young lady the ability to "divine", until Paul cast it out. And yes, I did say it is a spirit other than the holy spirit. Does the bible refer to the spirit in the prophets as the Holy Spirit/Ghost? No, it doesn't. And why would it? Would you say the Holy Spirit is subject to us?
How faith works is another matter entirely.

I don't think you're nuts.
Faith is a substance according to one verse.
And I was just reading today about the seven spirits of God in Revelation and was wondering at it.
I am too tired to think very hard about this all right now but...it's interesting and I don't think you're a heretic.