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Thread: all works are not created equal

  1. #81
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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    1. You still do not get what we are saying.
    2. Please stop talking to me, I am sick of trying to explain what I believe to someone who has no desire to listen.
    3. I almost reported this, I will report in the future any further attack.
    As a small side note, are you talking about unbelief and trying to self justify?
    "I am sick" - I suggest you find a doctor, Christ, to help you with this.

    And I am listening, I have been all along, just you are not talking, just accusing.
    Please my friend report me for trying to minister to your agressive approach which
    always appears with barbs on, and not grapes or figs.

    And on the subject of winning, you always want to "win", which is never a good idea
    when what you have to offer is empty in a discussion. I have spent literal months
    trying to get you to be honest and open, but you find that hard, because it is not
    your style, but it is mine. So please destroy away, not such at what, and what with
    but I am your target, let it all out, my friend.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

  2. #82
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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    Ive read this five times and don't know what you're saying.
    A conviction, that if we believe, as a fruit of faith and a relationship with Christ, walk in love,
    good works and the Holy Spirit, is actually unbelief. And this unbelief means one is not saved, is nuts.

    Longer version
    If as a fruit of faith and because we have a relationship with Christ we
    a) walk in love
    b) do good works
    all in the power of the Holy spirit is actually unbelief.

    Saying this is nuts, because it is what faith produces and is the foundation of
    our walk. It is like saying breathing is not part of life, or drinking or eating.
    To live you do these things, life is defined by them, so faith is defined by love and
    good works.

    This is the argument James is using and Jesus. To know Jesus is to know this
    reality. So equally, if you do not know this reality, you do not know Jesus.

    And this is not me saying this, it is Jesus

    You are my friends if you do what I command.
    John 15:14

    Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
    John 15:13

    Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
    Matt 12:30

    Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
    Lev 19:18

    'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
    Luke 10:27

    Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
    1 Tim 6:18

    And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
    Heb 10:24
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

  3. #83
    Senior Member BeyondET's Avatar
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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by Test_F_i_2_Luv View Post
    but the bible is very clear on the fact that faith with corresponding works or action(s) leads to justification We are made righteous(justified) by faith in the work of Jesus Christ. The works done by a believer are a result of regeneration and transformation. The works are fruit of the justification accomplished by the work of Jesus Christ.

    Some squirm when they see the word "works". They view it as a negative word. My observation is that this is due to the misquoting of Isaiah 64:6. Works there(and only there, to my knowledge) are referred to as "dirty rags". Works gets scorned there because a rebellious Israel was making vain efforts to please God. Misquoting this verse leaves people thinking they can't do anything that God will find accepting/pleasing, which is not correct.

    So, in addition to the texts you've mentioned, we have Isaiah 64 as well.
    Huh really I've never heard that before, surely if this is true than those folks haven't read the whole Isaiah 64.. though the one verse wonder thing always gets folks going down a empty road..

    later on in the chapter, states we don't do works by our deeds alone but they are done through God when we allow him to be the guide.

    Isaiah 64:8
    But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    Any work done in secret.

    Yet be that as it may, we're saved by grace through faith, not by our works. Not sure about your views.
    Please be specific. If you would, give me an example.

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    Please stop talking to me
    Sorry EG, if you continue to comment on forums to which I comment on,
    I will respond and comment on everything as it strikes me. That is the nature
    of the forum session.

    And I reserve the right to defend and expose positions which I oppose, and I
    will oppose them wherever I see it expressed, with a doggedness and determination
    the Lord provides, Amen.

    You know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.
    James 1:3

    And I welcome your contribution and equal determination to openly represent your
    beliefs, whatever they are. So I have to obey God and not man, and not stop,
    but continue in Jesus Christ great ministry of the gospel of truth and love, Amen.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    I see that this faith and works topic can cause some confusion so I will try to explain it according to the knowledge that I have. If you have faith you will naturally have works or bare "fruit" or face the punishment of being unfruitful. As Jesus said he taketh away those who are unfruitful and purges the ones that are so that they will bring forth more fruit. Now what does it mean he "taketh away"?? Well, you are no longer in the vine which is him, and at the end of the world you are a tare and not wheat which he gathers into his kingdom. As he said, when I was in prison you visited me, and he goes on to list many things that was done. To the one who did not prepare themselves for their master he calls them lazy servants and takes away that which was given. He separates the goats from the sheep and accounts the wise the ones who were ready and had their lamps lit and oil in their lamps ready for his return. So you can see we are saved by faith in his finished work, but as a result of that we also have fruit.

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by know1 View Post
    The three Jewish wise men were thrown in the fire and didn't get burned, which brought glory to God, but what did they do specifically that caused God to step in and save them.
    What about Jesus and the apostles, did they do anything in particular to cause these miracles to come about, or did they just will it on the people and they got healed? What about Abraham when He was taking Isaac to be sacrificed. What did He tell the men he left behind, while purposing to kill his only son?
    Well...concerning the men thrown in the fire...and what they did specifically that caused God to step in and save them is...they...hmmm, if I say they had faith or they acted on their faith, then there have been martyrs who did the same but still died even though they had faith and acted on their faith and said similar things as the three men in the oven did. So I'm not sure where we go next...do you?

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by know1 View Post
    The three Jewish wise men were thrown in the fire and didn't get burned, which brought glory to God, but what did they do specifically that caused God to step in and save them.
    What about Jesus and the apostles, did they do anything in particular to cause these miracles to come about, or did they just will it on the people and they got healed? What about Abraham when He was taking Isaac to be sacrificed. What did He tell the men he left behind, while purposing to kill his only son?
    This is an interesting question. The stand of the 3 was unique and a challenge to the whole
    religion and authority of the King. God decided this was a time of judgement and a warning to
    the King, a work of grace. Saving the 3 was never the issue, it was to send a message of
    blessing and approval. We are His servants, and he chooses to use us as faithful servants,
    and great glory it is to be used in His purposes, for we are mere mortals in the plans of God,
    Amen.

    We will all die, our passing in faith will be glory to the King, but it is just passing across
    the veil. The world holds this as some great issue, when as Paul said this is great release,

    For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
    Phil 1:21
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    and If anyone is confused and think what about the man on the cross he had no works.. Yeah he did, he comforted the Messiah, and silenced the mocker who was also on the cross. He was there for the Messiah during his most trying time.
    PeterJens and Stunnedbygrace like this.

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by Stunnedbygrace View Post
    Well...concerning the men thrown in the fire...and what they did specifically that caused God to step in and save them is...they...hmmm, if I say they had faith or they acted on their faith, then there have been martyrs who did the same but still died even though they had faith and acted on their faith and said similar things as the three men in the oven did. So I'm not sure where we go next...do you?
    I want to answer your post before I backtrack and answer some of the more difficult posts, because yours is soooo cute. And yes ma'am, I do indeed know where to go next. But first let's look at the account.

    Dan 3:17 If it be so [that you cast us into the fiery furnace], our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
    Dan 3:18 But if [it] not [be so, that you cast us NOT into the fiery furnace], be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

    The subject in discussion is being thrown into the furnace by Nebby. Verse 17 they said what God WILL do in no uncertain terms. That being that "he will deliver us out of thine hand". Did God do what they said? Verse 18 has stumped everyone, because we tend to be so short minded that we forget to remember what the conversation was about in the first place. They were not saying, "But if God does not deliver us...", because they would be dead. Where is the sense in that? How will they refuse to serve or worship their gods or the golden image when they are crispy critters? So it was their faith that made God move on their behalf. And this is hard for most to accept, but they basically told God what he was going to do.
    What about Abraham taking his son Isaac to be sacrificed to God? Listen to what he said God was going to do for him.

    Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

    He told God what was going to happen BEFORE it happened. God was the one who determined how it was going to be done. Abraham, who fully intended to sacrifice his son, believed God was going to raise his son from the dead, and on that belief, he said to the men he left behind, "the lad and I WILL return."
    My point is, our faith directs the hand of God, and I can give many more examples. Take a look at Jesus' walk on earth. He was lead by the Spirit of God until someone with faith stopped Him. He would then do what they asked or told Him that He would do.
    That is faith and that is how it works. It is directed and God moves as a result of what their faith told God what He was going to do.
    Didn't I warned you that my view of things were different from everyone else's?



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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Amen...WORKS will never produce faith....the results of the faith one already possesses will produce the work.......such a simple thing hey.....many willfully remove themselves from the SIMPLICITY that is found in Christ....!
    Sir, I never said works produce faith. I believe I said, there is no faith without works. I find your statement interesting to say the least. How it is such a simple thing, and yet people like myself can't see it. The truth is, I do see your simplistic doctrine, and that is why I am trying to tell you about another one. If I thought you were right I would not try to show you another simple and easy to see doctrine.

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    Your putting the cart before the horse. Last time I looked, The cart did not pull the horse. The person inside the cart did not pull the horses from point A to point B. Nor did the person in the cart haul all the stuff in the cart that needed to be hauled to that point. The HORSE did all the work.

    Faith is a trust is something, In the Greek, Faith is an assurance that something will happen, An assurance that a person us trustworthy, (ie, if he tells you something, you know that can be trusted) It is greater than belief, because as I have already shown, I can believe someone, YET NOT TRUST HIM AT ALL.


    Hebrews has a faith hall of fame, You should read it.

    By Faith Abel offered a more notable offering
    By Faith Enoch was taken away
    By FAITH Abraham did not consider his age, but TRUSTED Gods promise
    By FAITH Abraham, KNOWING GOD COULD RAISE HIM FROM THE DEAD, Offered his son.
    By FAITH Noah spent a year building an ark.
    By FAITH Rahab did not consider her life, but hid the two spys.

    Work did not PROVE this faith, The faith was real.. The cart (work) did not pull the horses, The Horses (FAITH) energized the work.


    Abel trusted God, so when God said do. Abel did, Can did not trust God, so when God said do. Cain said I will do, but my way (self righteousness, or human good) which God rejected

    Enoch trusted God, and was taken, and had the witness, Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. for we must TRUST GOD is who he says he is, and is a rewarder of those who seek him. (otherwise, we have human good, and self righteousness, Which according to Gods word is like bloody rags)

    Noah considered God trustworthy, SO when God said do. Noah did

    Abraham considered God trustworthy, So when God said do (even though he one time tried to take it into his own hands, and Ishmael was the result) He did. (this proves a child of God can sin, and the results which can take place. It destroys lives and causes great pain and suffering, But does not stop a person from being a son)

    Rahab heard what God did in Egypt, and in the dessert, She trusted God more than she trusted her own people. SO when God said do. SHE DID.

    It is not work that proves faith, It is FAITH that PRODUCES WORK.

    If I consider God trustworthy, I will trust him not only to save my soul, but lead my life. So when he says do, I will (although like Abraham, not perfectly and sometimes try to take it into my own hands) do. And the more I trust God the more I will do.
    One of the problems here is that we are both looking at this from two different view points.
    According to your doctrine, I am putting the cart before the horse, but according to what I believe, it is you who is putting the cart before the horse.
    One difference between your faith and works vs mine is that, people who use your concept accept the situation or circumstance before they die. Those who believe similarly to what I believe, don't accept it and at least try to fight it. With your faith, you wait for God to do something first. With mine, for the most part, we are the initiators and God moves as a direct result of our works of faith.
    PeterJens likes this.

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by know1 View Post
    One of the problems here is that we are both looking at this from two different view points.
    According to your doctrine, I am putting the cart before the horse, but according to what I believe, it is you who is putting the cart before the horse.
    One difference between your faith and works vs mine is that, people who use your concept accept the situation or circumstance before they die. Those who believe similarly to what I believe, don't accept it and at least try to fight it. With your faith, you wait for God to do something first. With mine, for the most part, we are the initiators and God moves as a direct result of our works of faith.
    You put yourself in the position of God as the initiator and put God in the position of being the responder to you. And you actually think that is a legitimate viewpoint?

    “How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?”
    Gal 3:3



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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeNChrist View Post
    You put yourself in the position of God as the initiator and put God in the position of being the responder to you. And you actually think that is a legitimate viewpoint?
    God is ruler over all. We are only born again by revelation of His spirit.
    What we know of faith and obedience is through His word and His moving in us,
    teaching and leading us.

    So what appears to be our initiative is 100% His doing, though others might label
    it self, it all comes from the Lord. As Gods people we are holy blameless and pure,
    indwelt by the living God. So how can we in this state be doing the wrong things
    in faith and in Christ?
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterJens View Post
    God is ruler over all. We are only born again by revelation of His spirit.
    What we know of faith and obedience is through His word and His moving in us,
    teaching and leading us.

    So what appears to be our initiative is 100% His doing, though others might label
    it self, it all comes from the Lord. As Gods people we are holy blameless and pure,
    indwelt by the living God. So how can we in this state be doing the wrong things
    in faith and in Christ?
    Hey, spot on, right up to the last sentence that really does not follow from what came before it.

    “How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?”
    Gal 3:3



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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by know1 View Post
    Sir, I never said works produce faith. I believe I said, there is no faith without works. I find your statement interesting to say the least. How it is such a simple thing, and yet people like myself can't see it. The truth is, I do see your simplistic doctrine, and that is why I am trying to tell you about another one. If I thought you were right I would not try to show you another simple and easy to see doctrine.

    Yeah and I don't recall addressing you with this statement bro......an my statement is biblical.......works are the result of faith.....works do not facilitate, embellish and or add to salvation........

    It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE them that BELIEVE..........and Romans...we CONCLUDE that a MAN is JUSTIFIED (rendered just and or innocent) by FAITH without works.....

    James is found under the banner of SHOW ME YOUR FAITH........BEFORE men OUR FAITH is SEEN by what we DO (works)

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by know1 View Post
    I want to answer your post before I backtrack and answer some of the more difficult posts, because yours is soooo cute. And yes ma'am, I do indeed know where to go next. But first let's look at the account.

    Dan 3:17 If it be so [that you cast us into the fiery furnace], our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
    Dan 3:18 But if [it] not [be so, that you cast us NOT into the fiery furnace], be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.

    The subject in discussion is being thrown into the furnace by Nebby. Verse 17 they said what God WILL do in no uncertain terms. That being that "he will deliver us out of thine hand". Did God do what they said? Verse 18 has stumped everyone, because we tend to be so short minded that we forget to remember what the conversation was about in the first place. They were not saying, "But if God does not deliver us...", because they would be dead. Where is the sense in that? How will they refuse to serve or worship their gods or the golden image when they are crispy critters? So it was their faith that made God move on their behalf. And this is hard for most to accept, but they basically told God what he was going to do.
    What about Abraham taking his son Isaac to be sacrificed to God? Listen to what he said God was going to do for him.

    Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

    He told God what was going to happen BEFORE it happened. God was the one who determined how it was going to be done. Abraham, who fully intended to sacrifice his son, believed God was going to raise his son from the dead, and on that belief, he said to the men he left behind, "the lad and I WILL return."
    My point is, our faith directs the hand of God, and I can give many more examples. Take a look at Jesus' walk on earth. He was lead by the Spirit of God until someone with faith stopped Him. He would then do what they asked or told Him that He would do.
    That is faith and that is how it works. It is directed and God moves as a result of what their faith told God what He was going to do.
    Didn't I warned you that my view of things were different from everyone else's?


    I don't buy this...
    I went and read it in my NASB, and I believe it does not convey the intent of what Daniel was saying.
    I also do not believe that if JESUS Himself prayed what He did in the garden and then said, but nevertheless, Your will, not mine, then...yeah, I don't buy it.

    You're right, I think, you have proven that you have some views that no other man does.

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by FreeNChrist View Post
    Hey, spot on, right up to the last sentence that really does not follow from what came before it.
    FNC - Do you know how simple it all really is. The Lord purifies those he calls, people prance about
    claiming lots of things and His word falls in good soil and brings love and reality about in people
    all over the place, but you do not see it.

    The whole spiritual battle is about the enemy creating distractions, hoping to confuse delay
    the Kings plans, but he is part of the plan as well. So much effort people create, but it is
    in their own hearts is the haze, the problem, the guilt and all.

    Either one walks in the way or one falls away from it. We can encourage and support, call and
    share, but each one has to prove they have had the fruit, pick themselves up and walk.
    Love has always been about stepping towards the light and the Lord brings the blessing.

    Can we forgive, let the pain be healed, and walk on in faith, listening to the promises
    and realise it is just mud and dirt splashing up on the road to eternity, no more or less.

    How can one be angry at those trapped by their own darkness and shadows not seeing
    the light is at their door.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by know1 View Post

    My point is, our faith directs the hand of God
    This is a little word play. The Lord always lays out more than one option.
    He will respond if we do, but we are always bounded by his knowledge and love,
    His hand and His direction.

    But it is all His choice, He provides the options guided by His love and intent.
    But his is how love works even in our lives with those we love, we take joy
    in the interplay, infact the interplay is the point not really the content.

    It is why insecurity, playing power games, domination do not work, because they
    deny the value of the participants and make the objective the reason, when it has
    always been about sharing. Amen, I bow to my Lord, that the King of all, in His
    heart shares and calls us friends and takes delight in this, Thankyou Lord, my friend.
    I share "Jesus Christ and him crucified" 1 cor 2:2
    "He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 cor 15:57

    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you

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    Default Re: all works are not created equal

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterJens View Post
    FNC - Do you know how simple it all really is. The Lord purifies those he calls, people prance about
    claiming lots of things and His word falls in good soil and brings love and reality about in people
    all over the place, but you do not see it.

    The whole spiritual battle is about the enemy creating distractions, hoping to confuse delay
    the Kings plans, but he is part of the plan as well. So much effort people create, but it is
    in their own hearts is the haze, the problem, the guilt and all.

    Either one walks in the way or one falls away from it. We can encourage and support, call and
    share, but each one has to prove they have had the fruit, pick themselves up and walk.
    Love has always been about stepping towards the light and the Lord brings the blessing.

    Can we forgive, let the pain be healed, and walk on in faith, listening to the promises
    and realise it is just mud and dirt splashing up on the road to eternity, no more or less.

    How can one be angry at those trapped by their own darkness and shadows not seeing
    the light is at their door.

    And all of that relates to the truth that God is the Initiator and man the responder how?

    “How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?”
    Gal 3:3



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