That's nice but I did those kind of things before I was born again. How was this a work of God over any other kind gesture and how was God glorified in it? This is what I would call a good work, but not a work of faith. Maybe a work of the faith, that of the Christian faith, but not a work of faith.
all works are not created equal
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The Holy Spirit moved me in a joyful manner to help this guy. The poor kid was moved to tears and couldn't gather the words of gratitude he wanted to say; I told him it wasn't necessary. I told him one day he'll be in position to help others in the same manner. With that, I said, "God bless you" and he said the exact same words to me. God was indeed glorified.
LOL!
Believe in who He sent goes deeper than it looks, doesn't it?
Because we often say we believe in Him but prove ourselves to be lying because if we believed in Him, we would do what He said, like not worrying about money and provision and if our IRA has tanked.
This is to say you believe in Him but to prove by your works that you only believe Him in some things.
Believe in who He sent goes deeper than it looks, doesn't it?
Because we often say we believe in Him but prove ourselves to be lying because if we believed in Him, we would do what He said, like not worrying about money and provision and if our IRA has tanked.
This is to say you believe in Him but to prove by your works that you only believe Him in some things.
I too gave to several homeless people just recently and had similar exchanges, but these are still good works, they really didn't require any faith on your part. Again, this has to do with the Christian faith, and at best God might be working on the person's heart, and maybe God was glorified some, but it is not a work of faith where you had to fight the good fight of faith or where God's strength is made perfect in your weakness. You had the money, and had compassion on the man, like the good Samaritan, but anyone can do these good things, but how is it a work of faith? Where you had to trust God for something? I just don't see it. I'm not trying to take away from the good thing you did, and it was a good deed, but hardly an act of faith.
I'm sorry, but I didn't quite understand what you were getting at or trying to say here. But if I understood you correctly, then I would say you are describing a person who might be moving from faith to faith. Most of us don't have faith for all things. It is easier to have faith for something like salvation, than it is for say, healing or something that you can see, feel, or experience that is contrary to what you asked or prayed for.
I have noticed how my question was ignored by two who see things differently than I do, and I was wondering if you might give it a shot. I think it is a legitimate question and should be answered if the apposing doctrine is correct. Again, I believe as I do because of the things I see in scripture, and if someone is trying to convince me otherwise, then they should be able to answer intelligently, what I see as scriptural inconsistencies to their doctrine. That's what I would do anyway.
Okay, so here's my question, and this is just one of soooo many accounts in the bible. Two of which I already gave you. Of which you rejected. No problem. Now, if you would, look at the below example.
If we are not the initiator of works of faith, then explain if you can, who initiated the healing of the woman with the issue of blood and Jairus' daughter. First, did Jesus go to the other side to heal the two people, and so they just fell into the plan of God? Or did they temporarily stop and alter Jesus' course to preach the gospel in that area?
Keep in mind, that Jesus was just walking while people were thronging Him when He perceived virtue went out of Him. Also, the fact that the woman said what was going to happen BEFORE it took place. Her faith was simply to touch the border of His clothes, and she would be whole of her plague. She believed that, spoke it, and acted on that belief, and God did what He said He would do in Mk 11:24. So who initiated the work of faith for her healing? Jesus or the woman herself? If you say Jesus, then please explain, because the theologians can't, or won't. I ask because, from what I'm seeing, the woman is the one who both initiated the act of faith and forced it to come to pass, because of God's faithfulness to watch over His word to perform it.
I have been saying this from the start, that faith is simply acting on what one believes, whether that be for blessing or cursing, or for good or evil.
As for Jairus' daughter, the man asked Jesus to lay His hands on his daughter "and she SHALL live."
And what did Jesus do? He took the girl by the hand, just as the man believed Jesus for to heal his daughter. Did Jesus have to take her by the hand? Did He have to take the hand of the young man that was in the coffin or for Lazarus? No, so neither did He have to take the girls hand to raise her up. But, that is where her father's faith was, and so that is what Jesus did.
As for the other two people mentioned that Jesus raised from the dead, we can clearly see that Jesus was the initiator of the act of faith.
As for Jairus, he temporarily altered Jesus' course to raise his daughter from the dead. Did Jesus not want to do this? Did He ever refuse to heal anyone that had faith for their healing. That should speak volumes about what the will of the Father is for those who want to be healed.
I have noticed how my question was ignored by two who see things differently than I do, and I was wondering if you might give it a shot. I think it is a legitimate question and should be answered if the apposing doctrine is correct. Again, I believe as I do because of the things I see in scripture, and if someone is trying to convince me otherwise, then they should be able to answer intelligently, what I see as scriptural inconsistencies to their doctrine. That's what I would do anyway.
Okay, so here's my question, and this is just one of soooo many accounts in the bible. Two of which I already gave you. Of which you rejected. No problem. Now, if you would, look at the below example.
If we are not the initiator of works of faith, then explain if you can, who initiated the healing of the woman with the issue of blood and Jairus' daughter. First, did Jesus go to the other side to heal the two people, and so they just fell into the plan of God? Or did they temporarily stop and alter Jesus' course to preach the gospel in that area?
Keep in mind, that Jesus was just walking while people were thronging Him when He perceived virtue went out of Him. Also, the fact that the woman said what was going to happen BEFORE it took place. Her faith was simply to touch the border of His clothes, and she would be whole of her plague. She believed that, spoke it, and acted on that belief, and God did what He said He would do in Mk 11:24. So who initiated the work of faith for her healing? Jesus or the woman herself? If you say Jesus, then please explain, because the theologians can't, or won't. I ask because, from what I'm seeing, the woman is the one who both initiated the act of faith and forced it to come to pass, because of God's faithfulness to watch over His word to perform it.
I have been saying this from the start, that faith is simply acting on what one believes, whether that be for blessing or cursing, or for good or evil.
As for Jairus' daughter, the man asked Jesus to lay His hands on his daughter "and she SHALL live."
And what did Jesus do? He took the girl by the hand, just as the man believed Jesus for to heal his daughter. Did Jesus have to take her by the hand? Did He have to take the hand of the young man that was in the coffin or for Lazarus? No, so neither did He have to take the girls hand to raise her up. But, that is where her father's faith was, and so that is what Jesus did.
As for the other two people mentioned that Jesus raised from the dead, we can clearly see that Jesus was the initiator of the act of faith.
As for Jairus, he temporarily altered Jesus' course to raise his daughter from the dead. Did Jesus not want to do this? Did He ever refuse to heal anyone that had faith for their healing. That should speak volumes about what the will of the Father is for those who want to be healed.
E
Please, do not go to a new baby in Christ who is sick and claim she is sick because she or he lacks faith. I have seen so many people do that in the name of God and seen so many babes in christ walk away from God because of it.
and if you think you will not die of sickness, Good luck, I pray God wil grant your wish, I would not hold my breath though.
I asked about salvation because I thought that is what we were talking about. not name it and claim it.
E
I see, So james contradicted paul. When paul made it clear Abraham was saved before he did one work, (rom 4) and genesis backs him up. Abraham's work followed his declaration of being righteous.
No James did not contradict paul. Nor did he say we are saved only AFTER we do a work, He said clearly, You prove to me your faith apart from works, I will prove my FAITH BY MY WORK (remember his audience, Hearers and not doers. People who CLAIMED to have faith, but had no faith at all. IT WAS DEAD.
James asked an honest and biblical question, CAN A DEAD FAITH SAVE SOMEONE? well no. it will not save them, and it will not cause them to do work, because it is POWERLESS.. thats WHY they had NO WORK to begin with.
Nope. A man is saved by a true living faith, and a true living faith will ALWAYS be followed by works.. Thats why we can prove who has true faith vs those who just have a PROFESSED faith, but inn reality, no faith at all (dead faith)
No I never said this, To me, it is YOU who are saying this.
I was justified the moment I placed my real saving faith in Christ, ALL my works were as a result of that faith. as I learned to trust God more and more.
You explain it to me,
Paul said faith alone Not works
Paul said grace and works do not mix, it is one or the other.
Paul and james said the same thing, their audience was different though (paul spoke to legalism, while james spoke to licentiousness) so they worded things different because the context was different.
No James did not contradict paul. Nor did he say we are saved only AFTER we do a work, He said clearly, You prove to me your faith apart from works, I will prove my FAITH BY MY WORK (remember his audience, Hearers and not doers. People who CLAIMED to have faith, but had no faith at all. IT WAS DEAD.
James asked an honest and biblical question, CAN A DEAD FAITH SAVE SOMEONE? well no. it will not save them, and it will not cause them to do work, because it is POWERLESS.. thats WHY they had NO WORK to begin with.
Nope. A man is saved by a true living faith, and a true living faith will ALWAYS be followed by works.. Thats why we can prove who has true faith vs those who just have a PROFESSED faith, but inn reality, no faith at all (dead faith)
No I never said this, To me, it is YOU who are saying this.
I was justified the moment I placed my real saving faith in Christ, ALL my works were as a result of that faith. as I learned to trust God more and more.
You explain it to me,
Paul said faith alone Not works
Paul said grace and works do not mix, it is one or the other.
Paul and james said the same thing, their audience was different though (paul spoke to legalism, while james spoke to licentiousness) so they worded things different because the context was different.
Jesus Heals Blind Bartimaeus
Mar 10:46 And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples and a great number of people, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the highway side begging.
Mar 10:47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
Mar 10:48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
Mar 10:49 And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.
Mar 10:50 And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus.
Mar 10:51 And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Who was the initiator of Bartimaeus' healing? Jesus or Bartimaeus? It is also more than obvious that Jesus would have passed him by if He didn't hear Bartimaeus' faith. See how Jesus moved according to the people's faith. This is not to say that we are telling God what to do, but is does show God's eagerness and willingness to heal.
Mar 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
If they couldn't believe for their healing, though Jesus wanted to heal them, He could not. God moves today as Jesus moved when He was alive. Those who could believe for their healing, got it. God is the same today as He was through Jesus when He walked the earth.
Mar 10:46 And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples and a great number of people, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the highway side begging.
Mar 10:47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
Mar 10:48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
Mar 10:49 And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.
Mar 10:50 And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus.
Mar 10:51 And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.
Mar 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Who was the initiator of Bartimaeus' healing? Jesus or Bartimaeus? It is also more than obvious that Jesus would have passed him by if He didn't hear Bartimaeus' faith. See how Jesus moved according to the people's faith. This is not to say that we are telling God what to do, but is does show God's eagerness and willingness to heal.
Mar 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
Mar 6:6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
If they couldn't believe for their healing, though Jesus wanted to heal them, He could not. God moves today as Jesus moved when He was alive. Those who could believe for their healing, got it. God is the same today as He was through Jesus when He walked the earth.
E
This does not prove that God will heal ANYONE. and that ALL will be healed.
All it does it prove that when Jesus was doing the thing the OT said HE would do when he came, Jesus can only heal those who have faith. Same goes for our spiritual healing, he wants ot heal all. But not everyone will be healed.
All it does it prove that when Jesus was doing the thing the OT said HE would do when he came, Jesus can only heal those who have faith. Same goes for our spiritual healing, he wants ot heal all. But not everyone will be healed.
Thank you sir for replying. The answer is, God draws us and we respond through believing His report. As for who causes us to believe, or who is the initiator of the work? Obviously, it's God. And that is my point exactly. First, God is the one who causes us to believe by the word we hear and receive in our heart. And it is this word we receive that causes us to believe. But each word is specific. What did you hear to get saved? A message of healing? I should say not. How would you know how to receive Christ if you had no knowledge of Jesus' work on the cross for your salvation. So for salvation, you heard a message on God's saving grace through Jesus' work on the cross. Right? And when you believed that and acted on it, you were saved. That would be something I might refer to as saving faith. You believed, acted on what you believed, and boom, God performed His word faithfully as promised, and gave you a new heart and spirit man along with putting His Spirit with Jesus in that new spirit man. That was for salvation. Now if you followed the same procedure for your healing, it too would come to pass as your salvation. Faith works the same way with all things. You must first hear that it is God's will for you to be healed and that Jesus took and bore that curse in His body and that it is already done for you, as salvation is, and all you have to do is receive His finished work. Now if you reject that message, then obviously you will not be able to believe for your healing.
Tell me, based on your years of experience, can you see who is truly born again and who is not at the moment of a person's public confession of Jesus as their lord and savior? The truth is, for most people, you don't know, nor can you tell, because you can't SEE any manifestations like you have to with healing.
So, as I said earlier, faith is directed at a specific thing at the time of believing. It is not the good things one does just because they are born again. One can have faith for salvation but not for a good paying job or other things. If it is something that you could do without any aid from the Spirit of God, then for the most part, all it is is you doing a good deed, such as giving to someone in need when it is within your power to meet that need.
Tell me, based on your years of experience, can you see who is truly born again and who is not at the moment of a person's public confession of Jesus as their lord and savior? The truth is, for most people, you don't know, nor can you tell, because you can't SEE any manifestations like you have to with healing.
So, as I said earlier, faith is directed at a specific thing at the time of believing. It is not the good things one does just because they are born again. One can have faith for salvation but not for a good paying job or other things. If it is something that you could do without any aid from the Spirit of God, then for the most part, all it is is you doing a good deed, such as giving to someone in need when it is within your power to meet that need.
That is correct sir. It does not prove God WILL heal anyone, but it does prove that HE WANTS TO, or that IT IS HIS WILL TO HEAL EVERYONE.
So at the very least, it appears to me, you do see and acknowledge that it IS the will of God to heal His children. That He does not want them sick, even as He does not want any to be lost, but for all to come to a saving knowledge of Christ.
So at the very least, it appears to me, you do see and acknowledge that it IS the will of God to heal His children. That He does not want them sick, even as He does not want any to be lost, but for all to come to a saving knowledge of Christ.
Okay, I will not claim a babe in Christ got sick because they lacked faith, because I don't believe that, but I will claim they most likely wont get their healing because of a lack of the same. You cannot receive healing if you reject it.
Sir it is not luck that keeps me healthy, and free of sicknesses and diseases, it is the word of God. The same thing that gave me my salvation, that heals and delivers.
No sir, we were not talking about salvation. You were. That is all you and most on this forum talk about. The fact is, I have a hard time getting you and many other to discuss any subject outside that of salvation. The subject of this thread is about the various kinds of works, so yes, salvation can be used in the discussion because works for or against salvation come into question.
Sir it is not luck that keeps me healthy, and free of sicknesses and diseases, it is the word of God. The same thing that gave me my salvation, that heals and delivers.
No sir, we were not talking about salvation. You were. That is all you and most on this forum talk about. The fact is, I have a hard time getting you and many other to discuss any subject outside that of salvation. The subject of this thread is about the various kinds of works, so yes, salvation can be used in the discussion because works for or against salvation come into question.
What is it about the Holy Spirit that you don't understand? What is it about being moved by the Holy Spirit that does not make it an act of faith?
Fighting the good fight? I walked into a house where 20+ guys were going to beat the crap out of one person. I walked in, grabbed the victim, and we walked out unscathed. How's that grab your cookies regarding faith? I shall not be afraid of ten thousand enemies that wish to kill me. Read the Psalms.
Fighting the good fight? I walked into a house where 20+ guys were going to beat the crap out of one person. I walked in, grabbed the victim, and we walked out unscathed. How's that grab your cookies regarding faith? I shall not be afraid of ten thousand enemies that wish to kill me. Read the Psalms.