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Thread: Deborah - The Judge

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    Senior Member KJV1611's Avatar
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    Default Deborah - The Judge

    This is a thread to determine the function of judges during the time of the Judges and yes it is related to Deborah being used as an example that women can teach and usurp authority over a man.

    I've been studying this for several days and have concluded that a judge is someone who does what God tells them to do and God uses their faithfulness to deliver Israel. Their function doesn't in any way compare to the function of a judge as we understand the term today.... from what I've learned about the judges, they had no authority over anyone.

    What's your view?
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    Psalm 12:6 KJV
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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Personally I have not thought about this before in reference to the judgers of the OT. Is it fair to say that these "judges" were in a leadership position?
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    of the word. The Pharisees knew "bible knowledge" but they did not

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    Personally I have not thought about this before in reference to the judgers of the OT. Is it fair to say that these "judges" were in a leadership position?
    I had a long road trip the other day and I listened to the book of Judges over and over as I was driving through snow in Tennessee, a state that apparently doesn't have SALT nor SNOWPLOWS lol.

    But I would say no Grace, they weren't in leadership positions. I didn't notice any authority given to Deborah, Giddeon nor Samson. During the time of the judes there were no rulers and everybody did what was "right" in their own eyes.

    Judges 17:6 KJV
    In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
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    Psalm 12:6 KJV
    The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by KJV1611 View Post
    I had a long road trip the other day and I listened to the book of Judges over and over as I was driving through snow in Tennessee, a state that apparently doesn't have SALT nor SNOWPLOWS lol.

    But I would say no Grace, they weren't in leadership positions. I didn't notice any authority given to Deborah, Giddeon nor Samson. During the time of the judes there were no rulers and everybody did what was "right" in their own eyes.

    Judges 17:6 KJV
    In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
    Yes...driving in snow can be fun! We can get some "unscheduled Walt Disney rides"...

    I thought that God raised up judges because there people were doing what was "right in their own eyes"? I haven't read Judges for awhile ...I am currently reading the scriptures chronologically and I am in the middle of Genesis.

    If they were not in a leadership position. What did they "judge"? Did people follow them or did some just act on their own?

    Perhaps whoever gave the name of the book "Judges" needs to be flogged...lol..J/K
    KJV1611 likes this.
    The new man in Christ - the new creation that is created in righteousness and

    holiness hears the heart voice of the Spirit and not an old head noise of the letter

    of the word. The Pharisees knew "bible knowledge" but they did not

    know God's heart and so they erred in really understanding what the

    scriptures were saying.


    The Lord wants us to look through His eyes and to live from His heart towards

    people, towards Him and towards ourselves as well.

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    Yes...driving in snow can be fun! We can get some "unscheduled Walt Disney rides"...

    I thought that God raised up judges because there people were doing what was "right in their own eyes"? I haven't read Judges for awhile ...I am currently reading the scriptures chronologically and I am in the middle of Genesis.

    If they were not in a leadership position. What did they "judge"? Did people follow them or did some just act on their own?

    Perhaps whoever gave the name of the book "Judges" needs to be flogged...lol..J/K
    Judges 4:5 KJV
    And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Beth-el in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

    People did come to Deborah for judgement, I'm not sure what that means because judgement in the bible can mean many things including, in my opinion, expounding on the word of God.

    Judges 4:6 KJV
    And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-naphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded, saying , Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

    Here she reminded Barak of what God had commanded.

    Judges 4:10 KJV
    And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him.

    Here she goes with Barak to Kedesh.

    Judges 4:14 KJV
    And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the Lord hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the Lord gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.

    Here Deborah seems to be prodding Barak on.

    Judges 5:7 KJV
    The inhabitants of the villages ceased, they ceased in Israel, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel.

    I really don't know what this is saying, but certainly things began to get better when Deborah arose. There's more in the song that Deborah and Barak sang, I'll cover that in another post.
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    Psalm 12:6 KJV
    The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by KJV1611 View Post
    This is a thread to determine the function of judges during the time of the Judges and yes it is related to Deborah being used as an example that women can teach and usurp authority over a man.

    I've been studying this for several days and have concluded that a judge is someone who does what God tells them to do and God uses their faithfulness to deliver Israel. Their function doesn't in any way compare to the function of a judge as we understand the term today.... from what I've learned about the judges, they had no authority over anyone.

    What's your view?
    I never gave this any deep thought. It always seemed to me the judges named in the Bible were ruling Israel at the time, and this was a very peaceful time in Israel's history. Soon they would demand the Lord give them kings instead of judges, and it was all downhill after that. Sometimes I point out to people that one of the judges was a woman, demonstrating in my mind that women and men are equal.
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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by resurrection33 View Post
    I never gave this any deep thought. It always seemed to me the judges named in the Bible were ruling Israel at the time, and this was a very peaceful time in Israel's history. Soon they would demand the Lord give them kings instead of judges, and it was all downhill after that. Sometimes I point out to people that one of the judges was a woman, demonstrating in my mind that women and men are equal.
    I thought the same until I studied it, but it's not true, the judges weren't the rulers.
    Psalm 12:6 KJV
    The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

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    jb
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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by KJV1611 View Post
    This is a thread to determine the function of judges during the time of the Judges and yes it is related to Deborah being used as an example that women can teach and usurp authority over a man.
    There was absolutely NO usurpation!

    It was God Who appointed her as Judge in Israel, also note she had a prophetic ministry as well!
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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by jb View Post
    There was absolutely NO usurpation!

    It was God Who appointed her as Judge in Israel, also note she had a prophetic ministry as well!
    Of course there was no usurpation, Deborah was Godly woman. And God didn't put her OVER the men either as far as I can see.
    Psalm 12:6 KJV
    The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    The book of the Judges records the history of thirteen Judges, of which twelve were called by God, and one is a usurper of the power. The reason for the office of the judge was to ensure that justice was maintained in all the land and in every community. The governmental rule of the people of Israel then was handled from this office. Twelve of these Judges were men and one was a woman called Deborah.

    Many commentators and teachers exclude Deborah because she was a woman, however, their hang-ups do not exclude the fact that she was there and she ruled as a Judge, and she was one of the best. She was the Judge for her time. Probably the hardest reason for these critics to accept is the fact that not only was she a good Judge, but she was a prophetess also. She has to one of the favorite women of the Bible.

    For a trial to be good, neither the defense nor the prosecution loses, for the outcome is that the truth comes forth and is taken care of properly, according to the law. If the person is guilty, then the violator is given his or her just reward, hanging or paying the fine. However, if the person is innocent, then he or she is set free from those charges against him or her. This is why the primary verb "Shophetim" is used, "to put right and then rule".
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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by EarsToHear View Post
    The book of the Judges records the history of thirteen Judges, of which twelve were called by God, and one is a usurper of the power. The reason for the office of the judge was to ensure that justice was maintained in all the land and in every community. The governmental rule of the people of Israel then was handled from this office. Twelve of these Judges were men and one was a woman called Deborah.

    Many commentators and teachers exclude Deborah because she was a woman, however, their hang-ups do not exclude the fact that she was there and she ruled as a Judge, and she was one of the best. She was the Judge for her time. Probably the hardest reason for these critics to accept is the fact that not only was she a good Judge, but she was a prophetess also. She has to one of the favorite women of the Bible.

    For a trial to be good, neither the defense nor the prosecution loses, for the outcome is that the truth comes forth and is taken care of properly, according to the law. If the person is guilty, then the violator is given his or her just reward, hanging or paying the fine. However, if the person is innocent, then he or she is set free from those charges against him or her. This is why the primary verb "Shophetim" is used, "to put right and then rule".
    Where is that in the bible, I didn't see... not being rude, I just studied the book of Judges and didn't see that.

    "The reason for the office of the judge was to ensure that justice was maintained in all the land and in every community. The governmental rule of the people of Israel then was handled from this office."
    Psalm 12:6 KJV
    The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by KJV1611 View Post
    ...And God didn't put her OVER the men either as far as I can see.
    God ruled Israel through her for 40 years, she had the rule and authority in Israel, not only over the women BUT over the men as well. At the end of day she had the final say on matters!

    Sorry if you're offended by that, BUT that's how it was!
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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by jb View Post
    God ruled Israel through her for 40 years, she had the rule and authority in Israel, not only over the women BUT over the men as well. At the end of day she had the final say on matters!

    Sorry if you're offended by that, BUT that's how it was!
    Ok maybe you're right, and if you are right then you can post the verses that say that Deborah or Samson or Samuel or Giddeon had the rule and authority in Israel.
    Psalm 12:6 KJV
    The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by KJV1611 View Post
    Where is that in the bible, I didn't see... not being rude, I just studied the book of Judges and didn't see that.
    It's just, in part, my take away from studying the book.
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    LaurenTM
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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by KJV1611 View Post
    This is a thread to determine the function of judges during the time of the Judges and yes it is related to Deborah being used as an example that women can teach and usurp authority over a man.

    I've been studying this for several days and have concluded that a judge is someone who does what God tells them to do and God uses their faithfulness to deliver Israel. Their function doesn't in any way compare to the function of a judge as we understand the term today.... from what I've learned about the judges, they had no authority over anyone.

    What's your view?
    interesting

    This is a thread to determine the function of judges during the time of the Judges and yes it is related to Deborah being used as an example that women can teach and usurp authority over a man.
    with emphasis on usurping authority over a man?

    how can you usurp what someone does not have?...listen, if that is the main complaint you have, if a woman has authority and she did not usurp it, does that still put a bee in your bonnet?

    let's look at the role of the judges...in the book of Judges...in the Bible and not through the prejudice of the filtration system of other verses...besides, the OT came first

    life during the 'Judges' period, was difficult because the Israelites had not been able to drive out all the inhabitants during Joshua's time and even afterwards.

    Now the Lord was with Judah, and they took possession of the hill country; but they could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley because they had iron chariots. Judges 1:19

    so we see an 'excuse' but not a valid one...as God delivering them from Egypt should have 'proven' that God was able to deliver from all things.

    Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you, 2 and as for you, you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed Me; what is this you have done? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall become as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare to you. Judges 2:1

    the reason for the continued failure to complete God's directions (re driving out the inhabitants) was THEIR failure to obey

    condensing the details, the Israelites were left living AMONG their enemies and fraternizing with them and worshipping false gods with them

    And the sons of Israel lived among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; 6 and they took their daughters for themselves as wives, and gave their own daughters to their sons, and served their gods. 7 And the sons of Israel did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and forgot the Lord their God, and served the Baals and the Asheroth. Judges 3:5 - 7

    Apparently, by the time Deborah became Judge over Israel...OVER Israel...OVER...things were desperate

    Barak has to go into battle and he WILL NOT GO unless Deborah goes with him!

    I think we can take the word usurp out of the history of the time of Judges in Israel

    people should read the book...God was with Deborah...she usurped NOTHING from ANYONE

    by the time we get to the end of the book of Judges, the Israelite women were in danger from their own men raping and hurting them whereas at the beginning of the book, it was the tribes they were supposed to have driven out but co-habited with instead, that were a danger

    now shall we blame the women for this? did Deborah put a spell on Barak or usurp him or did she go with him at his insistence?

    so many Christian men wanna be the boss...but just like the Israelites refusing to trust God and obey God, they want the end without the middle...and then complain when a woman becomes the hero of the story and does what her negligent husband refuses to do

    that's the short of it...it's quite an interesting case study actually

    I think men can pretty much blame themselves if they don't like what they have

    the word usurp is tossed around like the key to the entire thing, but it is weak and ineffectual men that leave the gap that women fill in and then the men cry she usurped authority

    not all men...not all women...but men are told to love their wives for a reason...and Christians are subject to each other...the man who ignores his wife and wants to make her shut up...in church or at home...becomes like the husband of Abigail and I'll let someone else tell that story.....
    Last edited by LaurenTM; January 9th, 2017 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by EarsToHear View Post
    It's just, in part, my take away from studying the book.
    I used to think the same also but I set out to study the role of ALL the Judges and never saw any evidence that they were any type of authority figure.
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    The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by KJV1611 View Post
    This is a thread to determine the function of judges during the time of the Judges and yes it is related to Deborah being used as an example that women can teach and usurp authority over a man.

    I've been studying this for several days and have concluded that a judge is someone who does what God tells them to do and God uses their faithfulness to deliver Israel. Their function doesn't in any way compare to the function of a judge as we understand the term today.... from what I've learned about the judges, they had no authority over anyone.

    What's your view?
    Judges established after Moses endowed with the Holy Spirit to judge the people...take responsibility off of Moses to settle disputes.,,his father in law suggested it and God approved.

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Exodus 18
    13 The next day Moses sat as judge for the people, while the people stood around him from morning until evening. 14 When Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, ‘What is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone, while all the people stand around you from morning until evening?’ 15 Moses said to his father-in-law, ‘Because the people come to me to inquire of God. 16 When they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between one person and another, and I make known to them the statutes and instructions of God.’ 17 Moses” father-in-law said to him, ‘What you are doing is not good. 18 You will surely wear yourself out, both you and these people with you. For the task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone. 19 Now listen to me. I will give you counsel, and God be with you! You should represent the people before God, and you should bring their cases before God; 20 teach them the statutes and instructions and make known to them the way they are to go and the things they are to do. 21 You should also look for able men among all the people, men who fear God, are trustworthy, and hate dishonest gain; set such men over them as officers over thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens. 22 Let them sit as judges for the people at all times; let them bring every important case to you, but decide every minor case themselves. So it will be easier for you, and they will bear the burden with you. 23 If you do this, and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all these people will go to their home in peace.’

    24 So Moses listened to his father-in-law and did all that he had said. 25 Moses chose able men from all Israel and appointed them as heads over the people, as officers over thousands, hundreds, fifties, and tens. 26 And they judged the people at all times; hard cases they brought to Moses, but any minor case they decided themselves.

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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    If my phone doesn't die will,post more verses.

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    LaurenTM
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    Default Re: Deborah - The Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by KJV1611 View Post
    I used to think the same also but I set out to study the role of ALL the Judges and never saw any evidence that they were any type of authority figure.


    you are in denial because of your own prejudice and desire to prove what you already think

    post the scripture where Barak was AFRAID to go into battle unless Deborah went with him

    what do you think a judge OVER Israel means? unless Israel was comprised of only women at that time, then Deborah was in authority over the men and by their own desire and allowance and God honored her, blessed her and gave her victory in battle

    now, if you still see no authority...especially considering her role in LEADING INTO BATTLE...(ask yourself if a general has authority over his men) then you are not able to admit when you are wrong

    not mincing words here

    no further time for this thread

    I think literate people can read Judges, study it and draw their own conclusions

    to say that even if Deborah was a judge she still had no authority over men, is laughable...and just plain screams that someone is not going to let the Bible renew their mind for them

    seriously...not debating it....having exchanged many posts with you, I see no point in it

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