No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

[PlainWord]

Yes, my point was, that the gospel as we know it, the death, burial and resurrection for sins, has gone out into the whole world and been preached to all nations but yet, the end has not come. Why? Because the gospel of the kingdom(Matthew 24:14) is not the same message as Paul's gospel. If it were, the end should have come.

The End of what? The World? Or the end of the Jewish nation?

According to Paul the Gospel was already preached in all the world at the time he wrote this.

Colossians 1:23

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

You see the disciples were interested in knowing when the end of their nation would come. They also wanted to know when Jesus would return which He answers a little bit later.

 

[PlainWord]

How are you missing the fact that this super-ultra-uber-spectacular event whereby "angels" supernaturally "gather the elect" by means of supernatural translation...and not just from the "four winds" (a reference to worldwide translation) but ALSO "from one end of the heavens (the universe) to the other".

I'm not missing it, I'm locating it at the very end of the planet. If you look at Mat 24:29-31 you see a gathering of the ELECT. You do not find a translation or a resurrection, do you?

 

[MattTooFor]

I'm not missing it, I'm locating it at the very end of the planet.

Don't know what you mean by "the end of the planet".

If you look at Mat 24:29-31 you see a gathering of the ELECT. You do not find a translation or a resurrection, do you?

When the "elect" are gathered...that IS a "translation". And when it says there are those who are gathered "from one end of the heavens to the other"...that would seem to be indicating people who have previously left life on earth and have gone on to the next world but are now experiencing a "resurrection".

 

[Bladerunner]

The case for the "great tribulation" of Mat 24, Mark 13 for having taken place circa AD 70 is pretty darn strong. I just read a very interesting piece on the ancient Jewish Christian Church which began at Pentecost. This church was literally located on Mount Zion which is the site of the Last Supper, David's Tomb and Pentecost. It would have been here that the early converts met to worship.

The early Christian scholar Eusebius wrote: “The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. This appears to coincide with the warning to flee when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. Not one Christian was lost according to Bible scholar Adam Clarke.

The destruction of the Temple and slaughter of 1.1 million Jews by the Roman armies was the fulfillment of God's wrath upon them for killing His Son. There is therefore no need for a "Rapture" to rescue the Church from the judgment which befell [/COLOR]Jerusalem some 1,947 years ago. The Great Tribulation is OVER.

That is ok, but it seems you leave out a whole book or to to make your point. Jesus told the people of that day to leave when the city was surrounded. .Now History tells us that Titus' father had died and he had to go to Rome. Because of the travel times of the day, there was about a 3 month lax in the siege of Jerusalem and its temple. This allowed the Christians to leave the city. Yes, not one Christian was killed because they believed. No one tried to kill them for leaving the city.. Everything during that 3 months period was at a standstill.

Now in the Prophecy of Rev. 12, the woman (Israel) are instructed that when the 'Abomination of Desolation' happens, they are told to flee immediately to the mountains in the south,(Jordan area) ..While they are fleeing, they are protected by God because the antichrist is trying to kill them as they flee. NOTICE---This 'Abomination of Desolation' DID NOT/COULD NOT happen in 70AD......The temple was on Fire hot enough to melt Gold.


I am sorry but these two events are very different from each other. One happened as we know from History of 70 AD, the other is yet to happen. There is no doubt here. The tribulations of God's wrath have not even started yet?

Might I add. This is one area I have a pet peeve. Why because, there are a lot of people especially the spirit people we have in this forum who are telling us the tribulations are over or they are not going to be bad.mainly because we are living thru them..

.People,,,,2/3 of Israelis will die, 1/3 of the world population will die, the earthquakes will level every building worldwide, will flatten mountains worldwide and the final battle will run a river of blood up to horse's bridles. Now whether that is a literal height of the blood or whether the verse alludes to the severity of the battle, it is still worse than anything mankind has seen.

In fact Jesus tells us, in Matthew 24, 21: " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."...

People if I were on the spirit/other side of Christ,,,I would be very afraid. As I stated in article today, When the rapture happens,(there is not doubt that it is a world event that is YET to happen), are you going to be flying in a plane that is going down while the pilot is going up!!..What happens if you die suddenly without the time (as in an airplane going down) to call out his name or to repent your sins...If you DIE suddenly......there is no 2nd chance here.

Regardless of whether we are in the End-times or not, I WOULD BE VERY AFRAID! Are you so sure of your position that you are willing to wager you soul.

 

[Bladerunner]

I believe that those people who came out of the tomb's, though resurrected as per the meaning of the word, were not resurrected into those immortal and glorified bodies and died again, in the same way that Lazarus and Tabitha were resurrected. I believe that Jesus took the spirits/souls of those in Sheol/Hades with him to heaven and they are waiting for the resurrection, where they will be reunited with their immortal and glorified bodies.

Regarding the resurrection, Jesus is the first fruits, then we at his coming.

Yes, I agree about the first fruits....It sounds about right...just wonder what they did with the bodies---replanted them... Have a memory of a study on this subject some years ago. Will look it up and get back to you...


Have a great and Blessed Evening.

 

[Bladerunner]

You do know, I hope, that you are attempting to 'prove' something by using a term (Abraham's bosom) that did not mean' Hell', in the first place, and was used only one single time in the entire Bible?

Hey WIllie-T,,,,good to talk to you again as well......

Yes, I know however, Hades or Sheol at that time was given the impression that they were separated for those that were righteous and those that were not. The story of Lazarus and the fat man was were that impression came from.

Having said that, there is no way to really know for sure.

Hades or Sheol the unseen realm of the Dead where the sinners in death were at.

Abraham's Bosom or Abraham's side 'the realm of the dead where on the righteous dead were at.'.


Did the righteous dead live in the same area of the unrighteous dead? It is so to speak up-for-grabs.

 

[Rondonmon]

I'm not missing it, I'm locating it at the very end of the planet. If you look at Mat 24:29-31 you see a gathering of the ELECT. You do not find a translation or a resurrection, do you?

You left out "FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER"....The elect are gathered from the exact place we claim they/we are at, IN HEAVEN, marrying the lamb (Rev. 19).

Matthew 24:23-31 is Jesus message to Jews who did not make the Rapture, but turned to God and were protected in the Wilderness. Jesus warned them, don't go looking for me in a chamber, or in the desert, for I will come in the Eastern Skies, and all will see me, [so Don't fall for a lie, because if you do, the Anti-Christ will KILL YOU........]

Matthew 24:32-44 is Jesus speaking to Messianic Jews who are looking towards the Rapture, as Christians, He tells them, there will be two in the field, one will be taken, and the other left [behind]. Jesus came to the Jewish peoples, Jesus left instructions for Christian believers who will be Raptured as a part of the Church, and for Jews who will be in unbelief, up until the time the Two-Witnesses turn Israel back unto their true Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Two, Separate events, both described accordingly............

 

[John146]

The End of what? The World? Or the end of the Jewish nation?

According to Paul the Gospel was already preached in all the world at the time he wrote this.

Colossians 1:23

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

You see the disciples were interested in knowing when the end of their nation would come. They also wanted to know when Jesus would return which He answers a little bit later.

Matthew 24:3, And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The Lord is answering the initial question concerning the end of the world.

 

[samuel23]

Something that is often overlooked is that the abomination of desolation described in Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14, is exactly the same event as Luke 21:20...Luke describes that event as, you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies then know that the desolation is near...for these be the days of vengeance...and they(Jews)shall be led away captive into all nations(that happened in 70ad). The phrase "abomination of desolation" was a reference to a time in the past when Temple worship was stopped by force...and that is what happened in 70ad. Since Luke makes it plain that the abomination of desolation mentioned in Matt and Mark was the destruction of the temple in 70ad...I don't see how this can be projected forward as something yet in the future. Of course, there could be a double meaning...but that is speculation.

 

[Bladerunner]

Something that is often overlooked is that the abomination of desolation described in Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14, is exactly the same event as Luke 21:20...Luke describes that event as, you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies then know that the desolation is near...for these be the days of vengeance...and they(Jews)shall be led away captive into all nations(that happened in 70ad). The phrase "abomination of desolation" was a reference to a time in the past when Temple worship was stopped by force...and that is what happened in 70ad. Since Luke makes it plain that the abomination of desolation mentioned in Matt and Mark was the destruction of the temple in 70ad...I don't see how this can be projected forward as something yet in the future. Of course, there could be a double meaning...but that is speculation.

Matthew, Mark and Luke write from different perspectives. Luke is speaking of the past Abomination of desolation that caused the Mcabellion revolt.

Yes, armies surround the temple in 70AD but because of the intense fire, there was no Abomination of Desolation. Matthew and Mark are speaking future times.

One other point,,,someone says Daniel 9:27 does not have anything to do with it...Yes it does and Jesus tells it does in Matthew 24:15...He even tells to understand it.


Matthew 24:15 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand



No matter how you put it, Revelation is telling us the END in chronological order.. All you have to do is read it literally.

Have fun.

 

[GaryA]

Job lost everything, all his kids, his wife, his money (herd ---wealth), his Health,,,,,,,yet he still believed in God.

Oh, Satan had to have permission from God to do that to Job.

Afterwards, God rewarded with 'double' the amount of what he had including children.

Without his wife???






( He lost his children, but not his wife. )

 

[GaryA]

Please reconcile...

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

The first case is about the 'timing' of it; the second case is about the 'manner' of it.

 

[GaryA]

The Great Tribulation is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble"----

Armageddon is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble"...

 

[GaryA]

Matthew, Mark and Luke write from different perspectives. Luke is speaking of the past Abomination of desolation that caused the Mcabellion revolt.

Yes, armies surround the temple in 70AD but because of the intense fire, there was no Abomination of Desolation. Matthew and Mark are speaking future times.

One other point,,,someone says Daniel 9:27 does not have anything to do with it...Yes it does and Jesus tells it does in Matthew 24:15...He even tells to understand it.


Matthew 24:15 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand



No matter how you put it, Revelation is telling us the END in chronological order.. All you have to do is read it literally.

Have fun.

The Matthew, Mark, and Luke accounts of the Olivet Discourse are three different accounts of all-of-the-very-same words spoken by the same person ( Jesus ) to the same people ( His disciples ). It makes no sense to say that one account is referring to a different 'event' than another account --- to say that "Luke is near future, but Matthew and Mark are far future" is just plain dumb... SMH

Also,

Daniel 9:27 is not what Jesus makes reference to in Matthew 24:15.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Armageddon is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble"...

Jacob's trouble is another designation for the great tribulation, which is initiated by the abomination being set up. Armageddon is the gathering of all the armies of the nations at the very end of that last 3 1/2, where at the pouring out of the 6th bowl judgment, those spirits that come out of the mouths of the dragon, beast and false prophet gather all of the kings and their armies to the valley of Megiddo. This is also why the Euphrates is dried up at the 6th bowl in order to make way for the kings of the east to come across.

 

[MattTooFor]

Jacob's trouble is another designation for the great tribulation, which is initiated by the abomination being set up.

Actually, if you notice carefully, the "great tribulation" only goes as far as the occurrence of the cosmic disturbances - the sun and moon darkening, etc.

At the time of those cosmic phenomena, the "day of the Lord" then kicks off and then finishes out the remainder of the 1260 days:

Joel 2:31 - "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

Matthew 24:29,30,31 -"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels...and they will gather together His elect...".

The cosmic phenomena come AFTER the tribulation...but BEFORE the 'day of the Lord.

So the sequence of events is...1) the abomination of desolation 2) the great tribulation 3) the cosmic phenomena in conjunction with the "gathering" 4) the commencing of the day of the Lord.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Actually, if you notice carefully, the "great tribulation" only goes as far as the occurrence of the cosmic disturbances - the sun and moon darkening, etc.

Actually, the great tribulation begins from when the abomination is set up:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."

The great tribulation begins with Jesus saying "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation" which is directly linked with the Lord's warning to flee out into the mountains and it being the greatest time of tribulation since mankind has been upon the earth. The great tribulation ends in Matt.24:29-31 with Christ returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

In addition to the above, we have a reference to that time of great tribulation for the great tribulation saints referred to in Dan.7:25 as a time, times and half a time, (3 1/2 years) with that same 3 1/2 years mentioned in Rev.13:6-8, when it is said that the beast is given authority to rule for 42 months, where during that time he wages war against the saints and conquers them.

"He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. - Dan.7:25

"The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. - Rev.13:6-8

At the time of those cosmic phenomena, the "day of the Lord" then kicks off and then finishes out the remainder of the 1260 days:

The day of the Lord, also referred to as "the hour of trial," is neither a day nor an hour in length. The day of the Lord begins with the gathering of the church and continues throughout the entire seven years.

Matthew 24:29,30,31 -"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky...and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels...and they will gather together His elect...".

the above is just referring to what happens at the end of that 3 1/2 years, i.e. immediately after that 3 1/2 years of great tribulation, with Christ returning in conjunction with the events of the sun, moon and the stars.

 

[Adstar]

While I am not sure, I think you will be find through scripture a better case for the two witnesses being Moses and Elijah. This based upon their actions and use of extraterrestrial matter (for lack of a better word).

Elijah called down Fire from Heaven and stopped the rain, etc.

Moses called down the plaques from Heaven, etc.

Having said this, this is only conjecture on my part. There is no concrete evidence put forth in the Bible about the identity of the 'Two Witnesses'.

Your conjecture as to their identity may very well be the correct one and in all cases is as good a conjecture as mine is.


We each one need to search out the facts in the Bible and those words spoken by others...


Acts 17:11(KJV)..."11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV)...."2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

Hello Bladerunner

I was not putting forward the proposition that Caleb and Joshua would be the last two witnesses.. I was using the events of the first attempt to bring the Jews into the Holy Land as a similitude or a foreshadowing of what was going to happen in the last days with the Jews during the times of the return of Jesus.. As the first day of Passover in Egypt when the Jews sacrificed a Lamb and put the blood of the lamb on their doors to save them from the angel of death that came that night to take the life's of the firstborn of each household unless their house was covered by the Blood of the Lamb.. So to in the day of Passover in 30 Ad when Jesus was the sacrificed Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world so that those who are covered by His blood shall be be condemned to the second death..

I have no idea who the last two witnesses will be.. And it really does not really matter to me.. In the end God knows

 

[popeye]

Actually, the great tribulation begins from when the abomination is set up:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."

The great tribulation begins with Jesus saying "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation" which is directly linked with the Lord's warning to flee out into the mountains and it being the greatest time of tribulation since mankind has been upon the earth. The great tribulation ends in Matt.24:29-31 with Christ returning to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

In addition to the above, we have a reference to that time of great tribulation for the great tribulation saints referred to in Dan.7:25 as a time, times and half a time, (3 1/2 years) with that same 3 1/2 years mentioned in Rev.13:6-8, when it is said that the beast is given authority to rule for 42 months, where during that time he wages war against the saints and conquers them.

"He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time. - Dan.7:25

"The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. - Rev.13:6-8



The day of the Lord, also referred to as "the hour of trial," is neither a day nor an hour in length. The day of the Lord begins with the gathering of the church and continues throughout the entire seven years.



the above is just referring to what happens at the end of that 3 1/2 years, i.e. immediately after that 3 1/2 years of great tribulation, with Christ returning in conjunction with the events of the sun, moon and the stars.

The whole 7 years is Jacob's trouble,the great tribulation.

It even says early on in rev "...these are they that come out of great tribulation..."

 

[PlainWord]

Don't know what you mean by "the end of the planet".

I mean this:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, [SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? [SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

There can be no more corruptible flesh prior to us entering the new earth.

When the "elect" are gathered...that IS a "translation". And when it says there are those who are gathered "from one end of the heavens to the other"...that would seem to be indicating people who have previously left life on earth and have gone on to the next world but are now experiencing a "resurrection".

First understand who scattered to understand who is to be gathered. We see in Mat 24 who scatter:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Now you can see who is gathered.