No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

[wwjd_kilden]

It's not a matter of not wanting it to happen, it is a matter of thinking it won't happen

I want a job and a house.
It is unlikely I will ever own a house with the current prices, so I don't think I will get a house, but that doesn't mean I won't be saving money just in case I get around to it some time

 

[MattTooFor]

When Jesus returns in the clouds for His church those who are His will go up to be with Him. Those who aren't won't. After all who will say no the Lord. No Lord I want to stay here with the lost souls who are subject to condemnation.

I really wonder about the thinking of those who oppose the rapture of the church. Dying in an instant and being raised together with those who have already died. Sure beats torture or cancer or any number of other deaths I can think of. I don't know well I do know but I won't say.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I've been away from this thread so...I'm not sure where I may be cutting into the discussion here but...it has probably already been said that there are Christians all over the world and throughout the entirety of the Christian era who have been suffering persecution, afflictions and death. It is really only an "American Christian" phenomenon...this mentality that says "how could a loving God allow American Christians to suffer and die". Rwandan Christians are just shaking their heads right now!

So are Syrian Christians, Libyan Christians, Iranian Christians, Iraqi Christians, Sudanese Christians, Chinese Christians, Christians behind the former "Iron Curtain", Christians during the Roman era...on and on and on.

 

[MattTooFor]

Does it really matter

-There are people currently living with earthquakes, volcanoes, tornadoes and whatnot
- There are people currently being arrested, maybe tortured and killed for their faith
- There are people currently worshipping false Gods and following distorted "Christian" gospels

whether it gets worse or not, we are to be ready. Always.

The only thing is...Jesus, in Matthew 25, seems to be saying it requires a specific preparation for the Abomination of Desolation events and the events that follow. Not just a general preparedness. We need to specifically brace ourselves for an unprecedented onslaught of persecution...a relatively brief time (2-3 years) of darkness which comes just before the dawning...the arrival of God's kingdom to earth.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

How do we prepare?

Building bomb shelters? Line our clothes with hidden bibles?

 

[MattTooFor]

Instead of promoting a belief system you were taught, take it back to the Bible. Do a word study on rapture. AND it is in the Bible. The words "caught up" is rapture. It is used four times in the NT. Go do a word study and see what it says in context.

Then learn what it really means instead of the hogwash taught as "rapture" in various degrees today.

That's how modernized version of "rapture" leave the brain and we're back to facing the real God instead of the secret version you've been taught.

(As a newbie I fell for it too, but we're called to get past the milk and onto the meat. It's really not a "conservative" church concept. It's a liberal church concept.)

I think maybe you're hung up on the word "rapture" maybe? You can substitute the word "banana" as far as I'm concerned...but somehow we have to get up to heaven, no? That would seem to require some sort of supernatural translation...unless we use giant catapults or something. Or maybe 747 airliners, perhaps? lol

 

[dcontroversal]

How do we prepare?

Building bomb shelters? Line our clothes with hidden bibles?

Spiritually, Mentally Physically yeah I know......!

 

[notuptome]

I've been away from this thread so...I'm not sure where I may be cutting into the discussion here but...it has probably already been said that there are Christians all over the world and throughout the entirety of the Christian era who have been suffering persecution, afflictions and death. It is really only an "American Christian" phenomenon...this mentality that says "how could a loving God allow American Christians to suffer and die". Rwandan Christians are just shaking their heads right now!

So are Syrian Christians, Libyan Christians, Iranian Christians, Iraqi Christians, Sudanese Christians, Chinese Christians, Christians behind the former "Iron Curtain", Christians during the Roman era...on and on and on.

It has been that way since the church was founded. Jesus said He's coming back for the church and those who are living will be caught up with those who have already died. We are all together in Christ some just need to come back for their bodies so they can be glorified together with Christ. Whether we walk the vail of death with Him or are raptured out is of little consequence. So there is no point in arguing that it won't happen.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[AllenW]

Thanks! But what's the deal with this "no-such-thing-as-a-rapture" guy (2 posts up)? Just curious. I'm a newbie. Never heard of anyone within conservative church circles who flat out dismisses any and all rapture scenarios.

If Willie says there is no rapture, then there's no rapture, end of story.

 

[AllenW]

I think maybe you're hung up on the word "rapture" maybe? You can substitute the word "banana" as far as I'm concerned...but somehow we have to get up to heaven, no? That would seem to require some sort of supernatural translation...unless we use giant catapults or something. Or maybe 747 airliners, perhaps? lol

Flat Earth with an open window?
God has plans.

 

[Willie-T]

If Willie says there is no rapture, then there's no rapture, end of story.

Hey, Al. Long time, no see. How you guys doing up there?

 

[AllenW]

Hey, Al. Long time, no see. How you guys doing up there?

Willie, how you doin'?
I escaped from prison.

 

[John146]

I think maybe you're hung up on the word "rapture" maybe? You can substitute the word "banana" as far as I'm concerned...but somehow we have to get up to heaven, no? That would seem to require some sort of supernatural translation...unless we use giant catapults or something. Or maybe 747 airliners, perhaps? lol

Please reconcile...

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Has the end come? Why not? If Matthew 24 is talking about the church and the same gospel, then why hasn't the end come? Paul says the gospel he preached has gone out to all nations, unto all the world, and has been preached to every creature. I'll tell you why. The gospel of the kingdom is the good news of the literal kingdom on earth promised to Israel with the rightful King on the throne. The gathering up of the Jews in Matthew 24 is at the end of the tribulation and it's for those Jews that endured to the end with faith plus works. They will not face the Lord's judgment of the nations when He returns.

 

[Willie-T]

Willie, how you doin'?
I escaped from prison.

Did you use the same tunnel I dug?

 

[tourist]

Willie, how you doin'?
I escaped from prison.

Did you use the same tunnel I dug?

It was the great escape.

 

[Willie-T]

It was the great escape.

Did I tell you that Al and his wife (Anita, I think it is) would like to meet you guys one of these days.

 

[MattTooFor]

So, how can you say that this is about the church?

Why can I NOT say that about the "church"? Why couldn't God have two things going on at the same time? Even I can walk and chew gum at the same time. God 'multi-tasks' every day of the week. You are trying to create an artificial obstacle, I would argue.

And at the end of that lengthy section, you still haven't answered on what authority you alter the text from "disciples" to "Israel"! I understand all about the "weeks" and stuff. The Olivet Discourse is STILL addressed specifically to "the disciples".

you are not understanding nor believing that the great tribulation is the wrath of God

But why should I "understand" that? You haven't yet shown a scripture passage. I have one. You don't!

Here's the thing: I have this passage of Scripture, the Olivet Discourse, which trumps absolutely every little doctrine you attempt to impose ON this text. You can throw everything you have at it. It still stands:

Jesus told Peter, James and John they needed to have an expectation of "great tribulation". NOTHING can change that biblical fact. If Peter, James and John heeded Jesus' words to them...that would then mean they did PRECISELY that - they went through their earthly lives with an EXPECTATION of encountering the Abomination of Desolation, the subsequent time of darkness, persecution, affliction and possibly even death...all followed by the glorious return of the King.

That's it. I have this passage of Scripture. You, my friend, do not!

[FONT=&quot]the great tribulation is the wrath of God [/FONT]

I would argue you are misunderstanding various things. First of all, this Olivet Discourse STILL trumps every doctrine you try to impose on it. Here for instance, you have the doctrine of "The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of God". You have your dubious doctrine (IMO) and I have a Bible passage. In this Bible passage, Jesus clearly indicates there is first the 'great tribulation, then there are these cosmic disturbances...and He then quotes from the OT. Specifically, Joel 2:31. Actually, He is referring to several OT passages at once.

But look at Joel 2:31 -- "the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes".

Do you see what Jesus has indicated here? First there is "great tribulation"...then there appear these cosmic signs, at which time there is the "gathering" of the believers...and only THEN does the "day of the Lord" commence. So I agree with you partially--believers experience NONE of the seals, bowls and trumpets...because the day of the Lord's wrath comes AFTER the great tribulation and the "gathering.

Look at any number of other OT scriptures which Jesus was hearkening to: The entirety of Joel 2, for example, is about the wrath of God poured out in the Day of the Lord, AND...it specifically and explicitly indicates this "day" comes AFTER, after, after...the appearance of those cosmic signs...which Jesus referred to in quoting from the OT, in which He indicated these same cosmic signs signaled the end of the "great tribulation".

PLUS...the Olivet Discourse is still sitting there with Jesus' point-blank statements to Peter, James, John and Andrew...that that were to have an expectation of "great tribulation"!

[FONT=&quot]Therefore, if you have Jesus returning during Peter, James and John's life time, then he would be leaving out the majority of the church from His promise.[/FONT]

But you're creating an artificial obstacle. That obstacle isn't in the Bible. Jesus Himself conceded He did not know the time of His return - "no knows but the Father in heaven". He did NOT say -- "no one knows but the Father...but I also know that it won't be probably for another couple thousand years or so". Paul, under divine inspiration, later claimed that he had reached the whole world. Now what? Who gets to decide when the whole world has been reached. Your obstacle is utterly arbitrary and artificial...AND I still have my Olivet Discourse passage sitting there!

[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."[/FONT][FONT=&quot] - 1 Thes.1:10[/FONT]

That's exactly right. I agree with the Scriptures. God rescues us from the "wrath" which comes AFTER the 'great tribulation".

[FONT=&quot]The wrath of God begins with the opening of that first seal rider on the white horse[/FONT]

Whoops! You're imposing another one of your doctrines. This now is the doctrine of "The Wrath of God Begins With the Opening of the First Seal". You can't do that, I would argue. The text there does not say the opening of the first seal is the wrath of God. That is you simply imposing PreTrib doctrine on the text!

I believe I can say for a fact...that believers are still on earth throughout the first six seals. Why? Because the fifth seal describes the martyrdom of believers...of which Jesus forewarned Peter, James and John...regarding a time of great persecution and many martyrs. That Olivet Discourse passage is still sitting there, brother. And no doctrine may ever contradict Scripture!

[FONT=&quot]Those that will be here during the time of that last seven years will be those great tribulation saints [/FONT]

Wait a minute. You had earlier said the Olivet Discourse only applies to Israel. Now you're saying it also applies to "tribulation saints"? And so when you refer to "tribulation saints" you have once again made this leap and you are simply imposing PreTrib doctrine on the passage.

You have yet to show where you have found this doctrine in the Bible. Meanwhile, I have a point-blank scripture in which Jesus is making point-blank statements to Peter, James and John!

[FONT=&quot]Another key thing to remember is that, the word Ekklesia translated as church, is used throughout chapters 1 thru the very end of the chapter 3. Within those same chapters, the word Hagios translated as saints is never used. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, the word hagios/saints is used, but the word ekklesia/church is never used. Coincidence or on purpose?[/FONT]

That's not an argument. I've heard this all before. This is really just an assertion. An assertion which contradicts the scripture of the Olivet Discourse.

[FONT=&quot]Those professing christian's who were not prepared (no extra oil) when the Lord comes to gather the church, will know that they screwed up and will know that they are now in the time of God's wrath and what they must prepare for. They will recognize the antichrist when he makes that seven year covenant[/FONT]

This is all fabrication on your part, in my view. You need to explain the inexplicable: How do innumerable hordes of people find faith when, according to traditional PreTrib doctrine, the Holy Spirit has left earth (actually, He never leaves anywhere - He is omnipresent) and there is no one there to evangelize?

According to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 25, those who did not fill their lamps with oil (whom you refer to)...do NOT find faith. They end up in Hell, according to Jesus (Matthew 25:11-12). There is some indication that possibly some very small number of people may be declared righteous, in my understanding of Matthew 25:31-46...in similar manner to how Rahab, for example, seems to have been declared righteous and snatched out from among evil pagans.

[FONT=&quot]There will also be the 144,000 spreading the gospel[/FONT]

Pure fabrication. Sorry, bro. The Bible does not say that. The response to the two prophets is that the "whole world" rejoices and celebrates like Christmas when the prophets are killed.

 

[Persuaded]

Why can I NOT say that about the "church"? Why couldn't God have two things going on at the same time? Even I can walk and chew gum at the same time. God 'multi-tasks' every day of the week. You are trying to create an artificial obstacle, I would argue.

And at the end of that lengthy section, you still haven't answered on what authority you alter the text from "disciples" to "Israel"! I understand all about the "weeks" and stuff. The Olivet Discourse is STILL addressed specifically to "the disciples".

But why should I "understand" that? You haven't yet shown a scripture passage. I have one. You don't!

Here's the thing: I have this passage of Scripture, the Olivet Discourse, which trumps absolutely every little doctrine you attempt to impose ON this text. You can throw everything you have at it. It still stands:

Jesus told Peter, James and John they needed to have an expectation of "great tribulation". NOTHING can change that biblical fact. If Peter, James and John heeded Jesus' words to them...that would then mean they did PRECISELY that - they went through their earthly lives with an EXPECTATION of encountering the Abomination of Desolation, the subsequent time of darkness, persecution, affliction and possibly even death...all followed by the glorious return of the King.

That's it. I have this passage of Scripture. You, my friend, do not!

the great tribulation is the wrath of God

I would argue you are misunderstanding various things. First of all, this Olivet Discourse STILL trumps every doctrine you try to impose on it. Here for instance, you have the doctrine of "The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of God". You have your dubious doctrine (IMO) and I have a Bible passage. In this Bible passage, Jesus clearly indicates there is first the 'great tribulation, then there are these cosmic disturbances...and He then quotes from the OT. Specifically, Joel 2:31. Actually, He is referring to several OT passages at once.

But look at Joel 2:31 -- "the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes".

Do you see what Jesus has indicated here? First there is "great tribulation"...then there appear these cosmic signs, at which time there is the "gathering" of the believers...and only THEN does the "day of the Lord" commence. So I agree with you partially--believers experience NONE of the seals, bowls and trumpets...because the day of the Lord's wrath comes AFTER the great tribulation and the "gathering.

Look at any number of other OT scriptures which Jesus was hearkening to: The entirety of Joel 2, for example, is about the wrath of God poured out in the Day of the Lord, AND...it specifically and explicitly indicates this "day" comes AFTER, after, after...the appearance of those cosmic signs...which Jesus referred to in quoting from the OT, in which He indicated these same cosmic signs signaled the end of the "great tribulation".

PLUS...the Olivet Discourse is still sitting there with Jesus' point-blank statements to Peter, James, John and Andrew...that that were to have an expectation of "great tribulation"!

Therefore, if you have Jesus returning during Peter, James and John's life time, then he would be leaving out the majority of the church from His promise.

But you're creating an artificial obstacle. That obstacle isn't in the Bible. Jesus Himself conceded He did not know the time of His return - "no knows but the Father in heaven". He did NOT say -- "no one knows but the Father...but I also know that it won't be probably for another couple thousand years or so". Paul, under divine inspiration, later claimed that he had reached the whole world. Now what? Who gets to decide when the whole world has been reached. Your obstacle is utterly arbitrary and artificial...AND I still have my Olivet Discourse passage sitting there!

That's exactly right. I agree with the Scriptures. God rescues us from the "wrath" which comes AFTER the 'great tribulation".

Whoops! You're imposing another one of your doctrines. This now is the doctrine of "The Wrath of God Begins With the Opening of the First Seal". You can't do that, I would argue. The text there does not say the opening of the first seal is the wrath of God. That is you simply imposing PreTrib doctrine on the text!

I believe I can say for a fact...that believers are still on earth throughout the first six seals. Why? Because the fifth seal describes the martyrdom of believers...of which Jesus forewarned Peter, James and John...regarding a time of great persecution and many martyrs. That Olivet Discourse passage is still sitting there, brother. And no doctrine may ever contradict Scripture!

Wait a minute. You had earlier said the Olivet Discourse only applies to Israel. Now you're saying it also applies to "tribulation saints"? And so when you refer to "tribulation saints" you have once again made this leap and you are simply imposing PreTrib doctrine on the passage.

You have yet to show where you have found this doctrine in the Bible. Meanwhile, I have a point-blank scripture in which Jesus is making point-blank statements to Peter, James and John!

That's not an argument. I've heard this all before. This is really just an assertion. An assertion which contradicts the scripture of the Olivet Discourse.

This is all fabrication on your part, in my view. You need to explain the inexplicable: How do innumerable hordes of people find faith when, according to traditional PreTrib doctrine, the Holy Spirit has left earth (actually, He never leaves anywhere - He is omnipresent) and there is no one there to evangelize?

According to the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 25, those who did not fill their lamps with oil (whom you refer to)...do NOT find faith. They end up in Hell, according to Jesus (Matthew 25:11-12). There is some indication that possibly some very small number of people may be declared righteous, in my understanding of Matthew 25:31-46...in similar manner to how Rahab, for example, seems to have been declared righteous and snatched out from among evil pagans.

Pure fabrication. Sorry, bro. The Bible does not say that. The response to the two prophets is that the "whole world" rejoices and celebrates like Christmas when the prophets are killed.

Great post!
I have challenged him and others to put aside their belief and study with an open mind and allow the Word to teach them the truth.
As long as anyone approaches the Word without an open mind and the willingness to have your mind changed by the Word, you are wasting your time.
Stop trying to prove what you have been taught and /or believe and seek the truth.

 

[tanakh]

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again and
the wall even in troubleous times. And AFTER three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off but not for himself
and the people of the Prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary and the end shall be with a flood and unto the end of the war desolation's are determined.

DAN 9:25 -26

Seven weeks plus threescore and two weeks make sixty nine weeks of years. The scripture says that AFTER the threescore weeks of years the Messiah shall be cut off. What comes after the threescore weeks of years? The seventieth week. That week cannot be a future seven year tribulation period because we know that Christ was cut off (Crucified) around 30AD He was crucified according to Daniels prophecy in the seventieth week not the sixty ninth. Careful reading and simple arithmetic shows this.

When did a people come and destroy the City and Sanctuary? The Romans in AD70. In Daniel it also says and to the end of the war desolation's are determined. Which war could this be referring to? The Jewish War that took place between AD66 and AD70. Led by Titus. This left the Temple Site and City desolate. This is what Jesus warned his Disciples about in Matthew 24.
Many Christians heeded his warning and escaped the horrendous carnage that took place at that time. Josephus writes about it in graphic detail.

 

[MattTooFor]

This is what Jesus warned his Disciples about in Matthew 24.
Many Christians heeded his warning and escaped the horrendous carnage that took place at that time. Josephus writes about it in graphic detail.

You're brushing aside the description of a worldwide, supernatural "gathering of the elect", are you not?

 

[AllenW]

Did you use the same tunnel I dug?

Yes, I saw your message on the wall, I knew I was goin' in the right direction.
Thankx!