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Thread: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    OK. Someone who actually read what was written in Matthew, instead of projecting off into a couple of millennia in the future.

    I started to show you the errors in you thinking but I realized it would be useless.

    You and others have taken the Daniel chapter 9 prophecy and made it into what you wanted it to be not what it said.

    So sad.........
    Have a Blessed Day!

    While reading these words I have posted above, remember to check these truths out for yourself. (Acts 17:11 (KJV))

    Blade

    When you receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, you will also receiveThe Holy Spirit who will teach you but you have to be willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities but you have to listen to Him. He will keep, protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but you have to let Him.

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    70 weeks are determined upon Israel as a nation to accept Jesus as their Messiah,which they have not did it,7 years to go in the future,which is the time that God brings Israel to the truth fulfilling the 70th week,and causes all people who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom.

    Israel is blinded in part,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,all Israel saved.70th week Israel is not blinded anymore,fulness of Gentiles be come in when they take the mark of the beast,salvation no longer available,all Israel saved,kingdom restored to Israel,which God will make a full end of all Gentile nations.

    Jesus said Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.Two witnesses sent to them,turns them to truth,they see Jesus,which the disciples asked if Jesus would restore the kingdom to the Jews at that time,which He said the Father will do it in His time.

    70th week,man of sin establishes covenant with Israel for 7 years.Israel has rebuilt temple,goes back to animal sacrifices,with no hassle from the Palestinians.In the middle of the week man of sin steps in to their temple tells them to stop animal sacrifices,and he is their God and Messiah,persecutes all people that hold the testimony that Jesus is Lord and Savior for three and one half years.

    After 6th trumpet world does not turn to God,so God gives them the beast to rule over them.Ten horn kingdom that spans the earth failed at maintaining peace,and government collapses,and they turn to the man of sin.War breaks out in heaven,devils cast to earth,the earth becomes their holding cell,and they deceive all people who do not love God,the strong delusion God sends all people who do not love the truth.

    Matthew 24 only mention of Roman Empire overthrowing Jerusalem in first two verses,because the disciples said look at these buildings as if they are special,and Jesus said they are coming down,then the disciples said what is the end of the world,and the sign of your coming,so Jesus told them of the end time and spiritual deception,and the abomination of desolation that shall occur in the future when they have that 7 years covenant and go back to animal sacrifices,and when they see that to run for God turned them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,and the man of sin will go against all who hold the testimony of Jesus.

    Spiritual deception compatible with for the time will come they will not want to listen to the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts,which God warned the saints it is doctrines of devils,the occult,which can branch out to many different paths to spiritual enlightenment,and a Christ figure can be one that outlines spiritual advancement for benefit,which theirs is harnessing the power of nature,so the many different paths would have many different false prophets,but all are valid to them,which is going on now,and that movement will unify the religions.

    Matthew 24 is for the future Jews to run when they know of the abomination of desolation,for they accept Jesus,and the man of sin will persecute all who accept Jesus,and the Bible says immediately after the tribulation the resurrection will occur,and I do not think that if it happened all those years ago in 70 A.D. that the resurrection that shall occur in the future is immediately after the overthrow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

    Also if it is an overthrow of Jerusalem why is Jesus warning them so much about spiritual deception,especially with all the false Christs and prophets,when Christianity has not branched out to the many different denominations and sects back then to have so much spiritual deception as today,and the new age movement.

    Jesus said those buildings are coming down,and then tells of the end of the world and His coming,not about the physical overthrow of Jerusalem,but spiritual deception mainly by the new age movement,with the many false Christs and false prophets,for all paths are valid for spiritual enlightenment,spiritual evolution,which the man of sin will be of the new age movement,which is about harnessing the power of nature,and He will step in to their temple and claim to be God and their Messiah.

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by JesusRules1 View Post
    70 weeks are determined upon Israel as a nation to accept Jesus as their Messiah,which they have not did it,7 years to go in the future,which is the time that God brings Israel to the truth fulfilling the 70th week,and causes all people who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom.

    Israel is blinded in part,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,all Israel saved.70th week Israel is not blinded anymore,fulness of Gentiles be come in when they take the mark of the beast,salvation no longer available,all Israel saved,kingdom restored to Israel,which God will make a full end of all Gentile nations.

    Jesus said Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.Two witnesses sent to them,turns them to truth,they see Jesus,which the disciples asked if Jesus would restore the kingdom to the Jews at that time,which He said the Father will do it in His time.

    70th week,man of sin establishes covenant with Israel for 7 years.Israel has rebuilt temple,goes back to animal sacrifices,with no hassle from the Palestinians.In the middle of the week man of sin steps in to their temple tells them to stop animal sacrifices,and he is their God and Messiah,persecutes all people that hold the testimony that Jesus is Lord and Savior for three and one half years.

    After 6th trumpet world does not turn to God,so God gives them the beast to rule over them.Ten horn kingdom that spans the earth failed at maintaining peace,and government collapses,and they turn to the man of sin.War breaks out in heaven,devils cast to earth,the earth becomes their holding cell,and they deceive all people who do not love God,the strong delusion God sends all people who do not love the truth.

    Matthew 24 only mention of Roman Empire overthrowing Jerusalem in first two verses,because the disciples said look at these buildings as if they are special,and Jesus said they are coming down,then the disciples said what is the end of the world,and the sign of your coming,so Jesus told them of the end time and spiritual deception,and the abomination of desolation that shall occur in the future when they have that 7 years covenant and go back to animal sacrifices,and when they see that to run for God turned them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,and the man of sin will go against all who hold the testimony of Jesus.

    Spiritual deception compatible with for the time will come they will not want to listen to the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts,which God warned the saints it is doctrines of devils,the occult,which can branch out to many different paths to spiritual enlightenment,and a Christ figure can be one that outlines spiritual advancement for benefit,which theirs is harnessing the power of nature,so the many different paths would have many different false prophets,but all are valid to them,which is going on now,and that movement will unify the religions.

    Matthew 24 is for the future Jews to run when they know of the abomination of desolation,for they accept Jesus,and the man of sin will persecute all who accept Jesus,and the Bible says immediately after the tribulation the resurrection will occur,and I do not think that if it happened all those years ago in 70 A.D. that the resurrection that shall occur in the future is immediately after the overthrow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

    Also if it is an overthrow of Jerusalem why is Jesus warning them so much about spiritual deception,especially with all the false Christs and prophets,when Christianity has not branched out to the many different denominations and sects back then to have so much spiritual deception as today,and the new age movement.

    Jesus said those buildings are coming down,and then tells of the end of the world and His coming,not about the physical overthrow of Jerusalem,but spiritual deception mainly by the new age movement,with the many false Christs and false prophets,for all paths are valid for spiritual enlightenment,spiritual evolution,which the man of sin will be of the new age movement,which is about harnessing the power of nature,and He will step in to their temple and claim to be God and their Messiah.
    Holy Cow........guess you got it bad.....good luck.
    Have a Blessed Day!

    While reading these words I have posted above, remember to check these truths out for yourself. (Acts 17:11 (KJV))

    Blade

    When you receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, you will also receiveThe Holy Spirit who will teach you but you have to be willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities but you have to listen to Him. He will keep, protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but you have to let Him.

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    No true believer escapes "tribulation" --- The Great Tribulation is not for the Church---- the Church is not mentioned 1 time during the Tribulation Period's judgment--- the purpose of The Great Tribulation ( Daniel's 70th Week) is for the Jews to turn to Christ--- the Time of Jacob' s Trouble-----another reason for the Great Tribulation is to judge sin---- The Winepress of the Wrath of God...
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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by JesusRules1 View Post
    The 144,000 Jews will not be witnesses,but God will send two witnesses to Israel to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,which Israel as a nation will come to the truth,and God will restore the kingdom on earth to them in the millennial reign of Christ.

    Jesus was the firstfruits of the saints,and they will be gathered unto Christ,a spiritual kingdom.

    The 144,000 are firstfruits to the kingdom restored to the Jews in the millennial reign of Christ.
    The two witnesses are Biblical yes and they will witness to the Jews but they shall be killed in Jerusalem.. Most of the Jews will reject the witness just as they rejected the witness of Caleb and Joshua when the Jews where first taken to the border of the OT promised land and on that day God struck the people and many died and they where forced to wander the wilderness for 40 years until all those who had rejected the report of the two witnesses Caleb and Joshua had died .. But their little ones who on that day had no knowledge of good and evil,, who where innocents did enter the promised land 40 years after the day of the rejection of the good report of the promised land.. This OT account is a foreshadow of the future event when the Jewish people will reject the witness of the two witnesses and they will rejoice to see those two witnesses dead for 3 days in the streets of Jerusalem.. But 144,000 of their little ones who are innocent shall be redeemed and they shall be the Remanent spoken of in Prophecy who will be saved from the wrath...

    Read Numbers 13- 14 .. and Deuteronomy 1
    Last edited by Adstar; 1 Week Ago at 02:42 AM.

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by JesusRules1 View Post
    The 144,000 Jews will not be witnesses,but God will send two witnesses to Israel to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,which Israel as a nation will come to the truth,and God will restore the kingdom on earth to them in the millennial reign of Christ.

    Jesus was the firstfruits of the saints,and they will be gathered unto Christ,a spiritual kingdom.

    The 144,000 are firstfruits to the kingdom restored to the Jews in the millennial reign of Christ.
    Most of this is your interpretation and not based on any clear scripture. It doesnt say that he two witnesses are there to turn Israel to the truth about the Messiah. In fact they are killed and their bodies are left in the street. They are witnesses to the whole world and that same audience give each other presents to celebrate their deaths. They represent one of many opportunities the world is given to repent in the last days.

    The Jews have been accepting Christ as their Messiah ever since his first coming. All his disciples were Jews and many of the churches started by Paul had Jewish Christians as well as Gentile ones. All the leaders of the Jerusalem Church were Jewish from James up until the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 after which the Romans banned the Jews from the city and Gentiles became the leaders. Today there are many Jewish Christians throughout the various churches round the world.
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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by 88 View Post
    The Great Tribulation is not for the Church---- the Church is not mentioned 1 time during the Tribulation Period's judgment
    The Great Tribulation IS for believers because Peter, James and John were believers. Not sure how you're missing that.

    You say "the church" is not mentioned one time. The word "ekklesia" is just one of dozens of terms which indicate Jesus-followers. "Believers"..."elect"..."God's children"..."saints"...on and on. You're claiming the word "ekklesia" has to show up in certain passages of your choosing, otherwise we must concede there are no Christians present. That is an utterly arbitrary assertion. It's an assertion the original innovators concocted in order to rig the debate.

    The bottom line is...since Jesus told Peter, James and John they needed to have an expectation of entering the Great Tribulation...and because Peter, James and John were believers and members of the Christian community...therefore, logically and irrefutably should ALL believers have the same expectation.

    As I believe I have said earlier...it would be quite interesting if Hal Lindsey (or John Walvoord or John MacArthur or some other advocate of PreTrib) could time-travel back to, let's say year 30 of Peter's, or James' or John's earthly ministry...and watch Hal try to talk those three out of accepting and heeding these teachings which Jesus had delivered to them directly:


    Hal Lindsey: "So...you guys still have an expectation of entering into the Great Tribulation?"

    Peter/James/John: "Uh....yes. Why wouldn't we? Jesus told me directly...that we are to live with that expectation. And now we are the leaders of the Christian movement and we're passing along these instructions. In fact, Matthew, Mark and Luke, three co-workers of ours, are soon coming out with written records of the Olivet Discourse meeting."

    "We're thirty years into our earthly ministry...we've heard nothing different from what Jesus told us some decades back...and now we're about to publish an account of the Olivet Discourse."


    Hal: "Wait a minute. You are THIRTY YEARS into your earthly ministry and still heeding Jesus' words?! You should've gone PreTrib long ago, people! You guys are well into the Christian era (or what dispensationalists call "the church age"). You're making a big mistake coming out with your Olivet Discourse publication, three decades in. You should've been teaching and promoting PreTrib long ago!"

    Pete/Jim/John: "Uh...what's 'PreTrib'? Is that an iPhone app or something? And Hal, why would we be looking for a teaching which would CONTRADICT what Jesus told us? Jesus looked me in the eye and told me to have an expectation of entering the Great Tribulation. And YOU'RE trying to tell me Jesus was wrong to tell me that? No disrespect but...maybe you should crawl back into your time machine."
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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by MattTooFor View Post
    The Great Tribulation IS for believers because Peter, James and John were believers. Not sure how you're missing that.

    You say "the church" is not mentioned one time. The word "ekklesia" is just one of dozens of terms which indicate Jesus-followers. "Believers"..."elect"..."God's children"..."saints"...on and on. You're claiming the word "ekklesia" has to show up in certain passages of your choosing, otherwise we must concede there are no Christians present. That is an utterly arbitrary assertion. It's an assertion the original innovators concocted in order to rig the debate.

    The bottom line is...since Jesus told Peter, James and John they needed to have an expectation of entering the Great Tribulation...and because Peter, James and John were believers and members of the Christian community...therefore, logically and irrefutably should ALL believers have the same expectation.

    As I believe I have said earlier...it would be quite interesting if Hal Lindsey (or John Walvoord or John MacArthur or some other advocate of PreTrib) could time-travel back to, let's say year 30 of Peter's, or James' or John's earthly ministry...and watch Hal try to talk those three out of accepting and heeding these teachings which Jesus had delivered to them directly:


    Hal Lindsey: "So...you guys still have an expectation of entering into the Great Tribulation?"

    Peter/James/John: "Uh....yes. Why wouldn't we? Jesus told me directly...that we are to live with that expectation. And now we are the leaders of the Christian movement and we're passing along these instructions. In fact, Matthew, Mark and Luke, three co-workers of ours, are soon coming out with written records of the Olivet Discourse meeting."

    "We're thirty years into our earthly ministry...we've heard nothing different from what Jesus told us some decades back...and now we're about to publish an account of the Olivet Discourse."


    Hal: "Wait a minute. You are THIRTY YEARS into your earthly ministry and still heeding Jesus' words?! You should've gone PreTrib long ago, people! You guys are well into the Christian era (or what dispensationalists call "the church age"). You're making a big mistake coming out with your Olivet Discourse publication, three decades in. You should've been teaching and promoting PreTrib long ago!"

    Pete/Jim/John: "Uh...what's 'PreTrib'? Is that an iPhone app or something? And Hal, why would we be looking for a teaching which would CONTRADICT what Jesus told us? Jesus looked me in the eye and told me to have an expectation of entering the Great Tribulation. And YOU'RE trying to tell me Jesus was wrong to tell me that? No disrespect but...maybe you should crawl back into your time machine."

    Blows my mind how many disregard the fact that Jesus is speaking to saved, immersed disciples that have been CALLED OUT and identified as a CHURCH no less than two times in the present context..........WHEN YOU ALL SEE........clear as a bell!!!!!!

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by MattTooFor View Post
    The Great Tribulation IS for believers because Peter, James and John were believers. Not sure how you're missing that.
    Just wondering, what where they believers in? At this point, they had no clue about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for our sins(which Paul calls his gospel). What where they going around preaching in Matthew 10 and throughout?

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    The Great Tribulation is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble"---- not the Church's Trouble----God is not done dealing with Israel--- in Chapter 7 of Revelation 144,000 Jews are " sealed". --- protected during the Tribulation--- they are servants ( greek-- doulos) Love slaves to the Lord--- they are first fruits unto God---- many more Jews will cry " Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"...Praise God...
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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by AllenW View Post
    Interesting...

    Stupid? Can you read what Jesus said?

    16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
    21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

    These are the three accounts of what Jesus said concerning the Tribulation. Did you notice nobody in Berlin, Paris, London, New York, New Delhi, Tokyo or anywhere else were told to flee? The tribulation that Jesus was talking about was very limited in scope and deals exclusively to Israel.

    Again, the tribulation is NOT a world-wide event. Many believe it happened in AD 70 as Luke's account certainly fits AD 70. Others think it is a future attack upon Israel. It could be a dual prophesy. Regardless, it is crystal clear that it pertains to Israel and only Israel. Therefore there is no need to "rapture" the Church to avoid it. This whole idea of a pre-trib rapture is STUPID!!

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    One major problem is that according to the Dispensationalist teaching the Church is raptured before the tribulation not just to escape it but because God will have completed his dealings with the Church and will then turn his attention back to saving Israel. Acccording to this teaching Israel with the Holy Spirit absent from the Earth will somehow be saved by the 144000.
    It appears at first glance very neat. There are two major groups. The Gentile Church and Israel. But what of the thousands of Christian Jews? What group do they belong to? Are they raptured with the Church or do they have to hang around until the Israel population are saved. How about the none believing Jews living outside Israel. There are a vast number more than the whole of Israel put together, who saves them?

    I believe that modern Israel was created by human effort. The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah and repopulating the region is an attempt to induce him to come. Someone will come as Jesus predicted and we all know what he will do when he does.
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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by 88 View Post
    The Great Tribulation is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble"---- not the Church's Trouble----God is not done dealing with Israel--- in Chapter 7 of Revelation 144,000 Jews are " sealed". --- protected during the Tribulation--- they are servants ( greek-- doulos) Love slaves to the Lord--- they are first fruits unto God---- many more Jews will cry " Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"...Praise God...
    While I loved the first part of what you said, "The Great Tribulation is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble"---- not the Church's Trouble" I have to disagree with the second part. The 144K are said to be the first redeemed. Redeemed = saved. The Gospel was first preached to the Jew, then the Gentile. Therefore the 144K were the first in Israel to be saved following Pentecost but before the attack upon Israel by Rome in AD 67-73.

    Notice they were from 12 tribes, the 10 northern and 2 southern tribes. According to Eze 37:22, when Israel is brought back from the nations to which they were scattered (1948) they would no longer be two nations. The tribal system is long over. Therefore the 144K from 12 tribes had to be from before they were scattered.

    Also please note from Rev 14 that they are shown in heaven before the throne signing a new song that only they knew. Notice that they were redeemed FROM THE EARTH meaning they are no longer on the earth. They are signing before the four living creatures and the elders who are IN HEAVEN. Notice also that the voice of many waters and the new song John heard was coming from heaven. Mount Zion is another name for Heaven. Jesus is seen with the 144K and Jesus is in heaven.

    Notice the next group of people John sees were the Great Multitude and that they too were in heaven. This group of saved Gentile Christians came out of great tribulation. They did NOT come out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by tanakh View Post
    Most of this is your interpretation and not based on any clear scripture. It doesnt say that he two witnesses are there to turn Israel to the truth about the Messiah. In fact they are killed and their bodies are left in the street. They are witnesses to the whole world and that same audience give each other presents to celebrate their deaths. They represent one of many opportunities the world is given to repent in the last days.

    The Jews have been accepting Christ as their Messiah ever since his first coming. All his disciples were Jews and many of the churches started by Paul had Jewish Christians as well as Gentile ones. All the leaders of the Jerusalem Church were Jewish from James up until the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 after which the Romans banned the Jews from the city and Gentiles became the leaders. Today there are many Jewish Christians throughout the various churches round the world.
    Yes there are......and my hat is off to them.......there seems to be more every day. However, it is the Orthodox Jewish community that wants to rebuild the temple for the 3rd time. Of course the Bible tells us this will happen but not until the antichrist(death) and Sheol make a covenant with them about the rebuilding of the temple.



    Have a Blessed Day!

    While reading these words I have posted above, remember to check these truths out for yourself. (Acts 17:11 (KJV))

    Blade

    When you receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, you will also receiveThe Holy Spirit who will teach you but you have to be willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities but you have to listen to Him. He will keep, protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but you have to let Him.

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by MattTooFor View Post
    I think maybe you're hung up on the word "rapture" maybe? You can substitute the word "banana" as far as I'm concerned...but somehow we have to get up to heaven, no? That would seem to require some sort of supernatural translation...unless we use giant catapults or something. Or maybe 747 airliners, perhaps? lol
    Yeah, sorry. You're trying to make some point to someone who has seen quite a bit of tribulation in my lifetime, and I don't think I'm special. So, this whole pre, post, blahdeblah stuff is simply people giving excuses to play with when he's returning, rather then dealing with he's already here. Now what? There will be an end, and he will return in glory, but it is very likely today will happen and he's already in it, so I deal with today.

    I do now know why you don't get that though. You don't listen. So you will be equally as shocked the next 100 times someone tells you there is no modern-rapture, and pre-/post-/a- discussions are games to avoid the actual life with God now.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by 88 View Post
    No true believer escapes "tribulation" --- The Great Tribulation is not for the Church---- the Church is not mentioned 1 time during the Tribulation Period's judgment--- the purpose of The Great Tribulation ( Daniel's 70th Week) is for the Jews to turn to Christ--- the Time of Jacob' s Trouble-----another reason for the Great Tribulation is to judge sin---- The Winepress of the Wrath of God...
    So the Church is not mentioned? Who makes up the Elect and the Saints in Revelation These are terms used for Christians in the rest of the NT. There are also letters where the term Church is not used Why is the book sent to seven
    Churches if the Church has nothing to do with the tribulation? What about the thousands of Jewish Christians alive now?
    where do they fit in? The same can be asked about those belonging to the early Church at the resurrection that will include the Disciples

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by tanakh View Post
    One major problem is that according to the Dispensationalist teaching the Church is raptured before the tribulation not just to escape it but because God will have completed his dealings with the Church and will then turn his attention back to saving Israel. Acccording to this teaching Israel with the Holy Spirit absent from the Earth will somehow be saved by the 144000.
    It appears at first glance very neat. There are two major groups. The Gentile Church and Israel. But what of the thousands of Christian Jews? What group do they belong to? Are they raptured with the Church or do they have to hang around until the Israel population are saved. How about the none believing Jews living outside Israel. There are a vast number more than the whole of Israel put together, who saves them?

    I believe that modern Israel was created by human effort. The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah and repopulating the region is an attempt to induce him to come. Someone will come as Jesus predicted and we all know what he will do when he does.
    Hi Mr. Tanakh....... do not mind debating with you,,, at least you ask reasonable questions?

    To answer your question in short order. * All those who believe in 1 Cor 15: 1-4 (KJV)are considered part of the Jesus' church and they will Raptured with the others as his Bride.

    * The non believers will have to go through the tribulations (Wrath of God). The Bible tells us that 1. there will be many that will come to Believe almost immediately after the Rapture. A lot of those on this forum will be in that category. When millions disappear and simultaneously many millions (non-believers) dye at the same time, these people will see the light.....That is if they are still alive to change their mind. If not, then their souls are lost forever. After this initial catastrophic event, those who believe will be hunted, persecuted and Killed,,,thus the "Martyred Saints under the Altar".

    2. There will about 2/3 of the Jewish non-believers killed during the tribulations. (roughly Hitler killed 1/3 of those living.) Those that flee the city of Jerusalem at the mid-point of the 7 years (Abomination of Desolation) will be those Jewish/Gentile people that survive and have cried out to Jesus to save them... Of, course there will be others, Jewish and Gentiles around the world that also survive the tribulations and DO believe in Jesus. These are the ones that He tells us about in Daniel 12:12 and the 1335 days. They will be the inhabiters of the world under the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ.

    To be sure, lets not forget that after the rapture and the time period of the martyred, there will be those (Jewish and Gentile) that do not take the mark of the Beast. These people will be converted by the 144,000 and the two witnesses. These are mostly comprised of people who have not heard the WORD of GOD. They too will be martyred and brought to heaven later in the tribulations. *. There are four classes of people in Revelation. 1. the Church, 2. the Martryed Saints, 3. the Tribulation Saints and 4. the people who have lived through the tribulations and will re-populate the earth in their human bodies.

    Now, people say the rapture will not happen and everything in Revelation is Allegorical. Interpretive to the whims of anyone. I ask these people who believe we are living in the 1000 reign now and that Jesus is only a Spiritual leader.

    How come, He rules with an 'Hand of Iron' (there will be swift justice by God, not Man...where is that?)
    How come, The people (newborns) will live to be 100 years and then die (only if) they do not believe in Jesus.
    How come, Where is the Bema seat.
    How come, Where is the Brides Supper.
    How Come, Where is the Bride?
    How come, we have so many evil people in power.
    How come, we have so many deaths around the world.
    How come, the Jewish people are still fighting today against an enemy that literally 'hates them into annihilation'
    How come, There is a split between the church is so many directions.
    How come, The great earthquakes fall every wall (all buildings) and every Mountain. In other words, the Temple Mount where Jesus will rule from will be the Highest place in the world.

    There are many more questions and there is no doubt in my mind that those whose worship the Lord on Allegorical claims of the Bible, will be able to fit them into one of those pretty little pictures, songs, poems, parables, etc. very easily.

    The the WORD of GOD is not really reliable is it. Your Choice.


    Have a Blessed Day!

    While reading these words I have posted above, remember to check these truths out for yourself. (Acts 17:11 (KJV))

    Blade

    When you receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, you will also receiveThe Holy Spirit who will teach you but you have to be willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities but you have to listen to Him. He will keep, protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but you have to let Him.

  18. #158
    Senior Member Bladerunner's Avatar
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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adstar View Post
    The two witnesses are Biblical yes and they will witness to the Jews but they shall be killed in Jerusalem.. Most of the Jews will reject the witness just as they rejected the witness of Caleb and Joshua when the Jews where first taken to the border of the OT promised land and on that day God struck the people and many died and they where forced to wander the wilderness for 40 years until all those who had rejected the report of the two witnesses Caleb and Joshua had died .. But their little ones who on that day had no knowledge of good and evil,, who where innocents did enter the promised land 40 years after the day of the rejection of the good report of the promised land.. This OT account is a foreshadow of the future event when the Jewish people will reject the witness of the two witnesses and they will rejoice to see those two witnesses dead for 3 days in the streets of Jerusalem.. But 144,000 of their little ones who are innocent shall be redeemed and they shall be the Remanent spoken of in Prophecy who will be saved from the wrath...

    Read Numbers 13- 14 .. and Deuteronomy 1
    While I am not sure, I think you will be find through scripture a better case for the two witnesses being Moses and Elijah. This based upon their actions and use of extraterrestrial matter (for lack of a better word).

    Elijah called down Fire from Heaven and stopped the rain, etc.

    Moses called down the plaques from Heaven, etc.

    Having said this, this is only conjecture on my part. There is no concrete evidence put forth in the Bible about the identity of the 'Two Witnesses'.

    Your conjecture as to their identity may very well be the correct one and in all cases is as good a conjecture as mine is.


    We each one need to search out the facts in the Bible and those words spoken by others...


    Acts 17:11(KJV)..."11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

    Proverbs 25:2 (KJV)...."2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."


    Last edited by Bladerunner; 1 Week Ago at 11:39 AM.
    Adstar likes this.
    Have a Blessed Day!

    While reading these words I have posted above, remember to check these truths out for yourself. (Acts 17:11 (KJV))

    Blade

    When you receive the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, you will also receiveThe Holy Spirit who will teach you but you have to be willing to learn from Him. He will guide you in daily activities but you have to listen to Him. He will keep, protect and maintain your soul in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but you have to let Him.

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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bladerunner View Post
    Yes there are......and my hat is off to them.......there seems to be more every day. However, it is the Orthodox Jewish community that wants to rebuild the temple for the 3rd time. Of course the Bible tells us this will happen but not until the antichrist(death) and Sheol make a covenant with them about the rebuilding of the temple.




    Where is/are the passage(s) that foretell a third temple being built by man? There are passages which speak of the spiritual temple being built now. There is also a passage that states (it) will remain desolate until the wrath is poured out. But I am aware of no passage speaking of a third literal temple being built in Jerusalem. Please show me.

  20. #160
    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: No such thing as a "pre-tribulation" rapture!

    Morning tanakh,

    So the Church is not mentioned? Who makes up the Elect and the Saints in Revelation These are terms used for Christians in the rest of the NT
    Below is who the Elect and the Saints are:

    Saints from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles):


    "After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."

    "Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
    I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    Israel:

    "The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."

    "The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach."

    The group in white ropes which no man can count and who from every nation, tribe, people and language, are all of those who will come to Christ after the gathering of the church and during that time of God's wrath.

    The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is Israel proper (Gen.37:9-10). The male child that the woman/Israel gives birth to, are the 144,000 who are the first fruits out of Israel who, by the grace of God, will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. This group is caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years and before the dragon can devour them and the woman flees out into the desert to that place that God will have prepared for them, which is where they will remain until Christ returns to end the age 3 1/2 years later.

    What about the thousands of Jewish Christians alive now? where do they fit in?


    The thousands of Jewish Christians who a will be alive when the Lord appears, are apart of the church and therefore will be transformed and caught up as being apart of the church.

    The same can be asked about those belonging to the early Church at the resurrection that will include the Disciples
    When the Lord appears, all of those who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church until the time when the Lord appears, including the disciples, will be resurrected i.e. God will reanimate their bodies into those immortal and glorified bodies and they will rise first. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive, will be transformed into those immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just previously resurrected.

    Last edited by Ahwatukee; 1 Week Ago at 11:44 AM.
    John146 and joaniemarie like this.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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