Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?
- Thread starter Awakened
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Welcome to the discussion fellow believer Eloseus, one of mine as well, we have , on the whole missed it for about 1900 years
of church history, churches have taught salvation is through the church, people have settled for "fire insurance" type salvation and not grown in the faith to do what Jesus would have them do. Every gift Jesus manifested is available to every believer.
John Wimbers personal testimony is a favorite of mine, I watch it every so often. Watching the later videos of him made shortly before his passing shows me his lifetime of faithfulness.
George Otis is another great one who is with us now, the Sentinel Group.
Blessings
of church history, churches have taught salvation is through the church, people have settled for "fire insurance" type salvation and not grown in the faith to do what Jesus would have them do. Every gift Jesus manifested is available to every believer.
John Wimbers personal testimony is a favorite of mine, I watch it every so often. Watching the later videos of him made shortly before his passing shows me his lifetime of faithfulness.
George Otis is another great one who is with us now, the Sentinel Group.
Blessings
Well Jesus and Esaias were not wrong about them.
Matthew 15:7-9
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matthew 15:7-9
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matthew 15
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honour their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you >>>>> "Pharisees and teachers of the law"
8 “‘These people honour me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.
What do you mean by extra-Biblical? Do you believe the Spirit is involved in conversion, in convicting men of sin? We can see that the Spirit of truth would convict the world of sin in the teachings of Jesus.
But let's say Bob Smith is convicted of sin. I can't open the Bible and say that Bob Smith would be convicted of sin. Let's say he was so moved at hearing the Gospel, that he falls on his knees and weeps. I can't find Bob Smith or his conversation story in the Bible, but what happened was in line with the teaching of the Bible.
A lot of people see the Spirit moving outside of their theological understanding because they do not understand the scriptures. We have posters on here, for example, who assume speaking in tongues was to be a tool to preach the Gospel in other languages. The Bible doesn't teach that, but they are set on that. If they don't study the issue out or understand it, and speaking in tongues occurs in a way described in another passage of scripture, they may reject it.
But let's say Bob Smith is convicted of sin. I can't open the Bible and say that Bob Smith would be convicted of sin. Let's say he was so moved at hearing the Gospel, that he falls on his knees and weeps. I can't find Bob Smith or his conversation story in the Bible, but what happened was in line with the teaching of the Bible.
A lot of people see the Spirit moving outside of their theological understanding because they do not understand the scriptures. We have posters on here, for example, who assume speaking in tongues was to be a tool to preach the Gospel in other languages. The Bible doesn't teach that, but they are set on that. If they don't study the issue out or understand it, and speaking in tongues occurs in a way described in another passage of scripture, they may reject it.
MattTooFor
I can't say for sure that they did not talk about the cross or the resurrection in tongues. I can say for sure that Acts 2 does not tell us whether they did. The comments from those who understood were not about the cross. They were amazed that they heard the Galileans speaking in their own languages.
I object to making a doctrine out of what the text does NOT say. It does NOT say that the disciples preached Christ in tongues. And there are some who insist that speaking in tongues must always be used to preach the Gospel to those who are not saved, the way Acts 2 does NOT say it was used. And they insist that it must not function like I Corinthians says it DOES function.
That's basing doctrine on what scripture does NOT teach and rejecting what it DOES teach. It functioned a bit differently in the two passages.
Raising Jesus from the dead is one of God's mighty works. But so is creation. So is splitting the Red Sea. We aren't told which ones they spoke about. We should not make a doctrine out of what the Bible does NOT say.
Speaking in tongues here functioned similarly to the way signs and wonders functioned in other passages. It drew the people's attention and amazement, so they could hear the message and believe. That is not the 'sign to them that believe not' that Paul addresses in I Corinthians 14, which deals with those who believe not. These people believed.
This is very true. But it does not say all the ideas that pop into men's head when they read the Bible, which are not taught in the Bible, are profitable for doctrine.
I would agree with that part.
There are some who call themselves Pentecostals who would agree with those behaviors, and some who would have problems with them. If it's genuine speaking in tongues, cynics may also call it gibberish. 'Gibberish' is a similar concept to calling the one who speaks a barbarian. I don't know if there is any historical evidence to the theory that barbarian comes from the idea that those who did not speak Greek said 'bar bar bar', but I heard it from a well-published ProtoIndoEuropean scholar who taught Historical Linguistics, so if it's conjecture, it's educated conjecture. Of course, his field is full of such theoretical conjecturs about the meaning of words.
You should tone it back. There was nothing disinegeous to my comment. You were putting a level of harshness in the mouths of Pentecostals that certainly isn't typical. Now, on some of these forums where people really argue and it turns into a quarrel, you might have read something like that. The Pentecostals I grew up around did not questions someone's salvation for not speaking in tongues or for not believing it functioned today. Maybe you spent some times with some Oneness folks who think you will speak in tongues if you are saved. There are a lot of them, but percentage wise, they are small, and typically there isn't that much interaction between them and mainstream Trinitarian Pentecostals.
I have a question for you. Are you using the Message Bible? I don't have a copy of the message, at least with me, but the regular translations do not say that in verse 22. You must be reading the idea into it.
And you should have read verses 21 and 23.
This verse talks about God speaking with men of other tongues and the people NOT hearing.
Notice the use of 'Wherefore', which connects the idea of the people not hearing to tongues being for a sign. Verse 21, the verse about the people not hearing when God speak with men of other tongues tells us something about what type of sign tongue is.
Notice the word 'therefore'. Since speaking in tongues is a sign to them that believe not, the unbeliever or unlearned who hears all speak with tongues in the assembly says 'ye are mad'.
It is a sign to him. He does not believe when he hears it. This passage is definitely NOT about people believing when they hear speaking in tongues.
And this is all part of Paul's encouragement of the Corinthians to edify one another with prophesying. Maybe he is counteracting some of the 'superspirituality' the people had attached to speaking in tongues, the same sort of thing some Charismatics promote today, honestly, and put it in perspective.
Paul does command the church to allow speaking in tongues and interpretation according to the order described in I Corinthians 14:26-28 later on.
I can't say for sure that they did not talk about the cross or the resurrection in tongues. I can say for sure that Acts 2 does not tell us whether they did. The comments from those who understood were not about the cross. They were amazed that they heard the Galileans speaking in their own languages.
I object to making a doctrine out of what the text does NOT say. It does NOT say that the disciples preached Christ in tongues. And there are some who insist that speaking in tongues must always be used to preach the Gospel to those who are not saved, the way Acts 2 does NOT say it was used. And they insist that it must not function like I Corinthians says it DOES function.
That's basing doctrine on what scripture does NOT teach and rejecting what it DOES teach. It functioned a bit differently in the two passages.
Raising Jesus from the dead is one of God's mighty works. But so is creation. So is splitting the Red Sea. We aren't told which ones they spoke about. We should not make a doctrine out of what the Bible does NOT say.
Speaking in tongues here functioned similarly to the way signs and wonders functioned in other passages. It drew the people's attention and amazement, so they could hear the message and believe. That is not the 'sign to them that believe not' that Paul addresses in I Corinthians 14, which deals with those who believe not. These people believed.
This is very true. But it does not say all the ideas that pop into men's head when they read the Bible, which are not taught in the Bible, are profitable for doctrine.
I would agree with that part.
There are some who call themselves Pentecostals who would agree with those behaviors, and some who would have problems with them. If it's genuine speaking in tongues, cynics may also call it gibberish. 'Gibberish' is a similar concept to calling the one who speaks a barbarian. I don't know if there is any historical evidence to the theory that barbarian comes from the idea that those who did not speak Greek said 'bar bar bar', but I heard it from a well-published ProtoIndoEuropean scholar who taught Historical Linguistics, so if it's conjecture, it's educated conjecture. Of course, his field is full of such theoretical conjecturs about the meaning of words.
You should tone it back. There was nothing disinegeous to my comment. You were putting a level of harshness in the mouths of Pentecostals that certainly isn't typical. Now, on some of these forums where people really argue and it turns into a quarrel, you might have read something like that. The Pentecostals I grew up around did not questions someone's salvation for not speaking in tongues or for not believing it functioned today. Maybe you spent some times with some Oneness folks who think you will speak in tongues if you are saved. There are a lot of them, but percentage wise, they are small, and typically there isn't that much interaction between them and mainstream Trinitarian Pentecostals.
I have a question for you. Are you using the Message Bible? I don't have a copy of the message, at least with me, but the regular translations do not say that in verse 22. You must be reading the idea into it.
And you should have read verses 21 and 23.
This verse talks about God speaking with men of other tongues and the people NOT hearing.
Notice the use of 'Wherefore', which connects the idea of the people not hearing to tongues being for a sign. Verse 21, the verse about the people not hearing when God speak with men of other tongues tells us something about what type of sign tongue is.
Notice the word 'therefore'. Since speaking in tongues is a sign to them that believe not, the unbeliever or unlearned who hears all speak with tongues in the assembly says 'ye are mad'.
It is a sign to him. He does not believe when he hears it. This passage is definitely NOT about people believing when they hear speaking in tongues.
And this is all part of Paul's encouragement of the Corinthians to edify one another with prophesying. Maybe he is counteracting some of the 'superspirituality' the people had attached to speaking in tongues, the same sort of thing some Charismatics promote today, honestly, and put it in perspective.
Paul does command the church to allow speaking in tongues and interpretation according to the order described in I Corinthians 14:26-28 later on.
There is quite a lot in the Pentecostal movement that is called manifestations of the Spirit of God, when there are no examples in the NT of the Spirit of God doing such a thing. I read in an AOG magazine that these things are known to occur and were even called extra-biblical manifestations of the Spirit. God has given us His word for a reason, so we can know what is of God and what is not of God. If something occurs and there are no clear examples of the Spirit of God doing such a thing, then it would be wise to get back away from it. An example would be the laughing anointing that was popular some years back.
Those who heard a tongue in a language they spoke, believed. Those who heard a language spoke and didn't understand had nothing to base belief on. They were magnifying the Lord in their languages according to scripture. Telling of the works of God.
Why did my running shoes comment offend? You didn't respond and I made a joke.
Why did my running shoes comment offend? You didn't respond and I made a joke.
I think the scriptures are quite clear on what the Spirit will do and what He will not do. The Spirit will led a person to preach as Peter did on the day of Pentecost so that people will get saved. It is obvious that the Spirit does not led a Preacher to get up in front of a crowd and just laugh(no example in scripture), or shake all over, or fall down with your dress over your head, or run into walls and pass out...Pentecostals believe that kind of nonsense is God.
Samuel
The laughter that you see is healing for emotions. But, laughter itself is catching no matter where or who you are. I recently watched a video of a group on a subway that were all laughing because one woman was reading something funny.
The joy of the Lord is our strength.
The shaking? Have you ever been touched by an electrical current? Your body responds. These things aren't happening in every meeting. And all crowds will draw people that are all different. It's easy to look at one and think this is just too crazy to be real, until He touches you.
I believe Holy Spirit wants to interact with us much more than we so far have experienced, and nothing He does is in vain.
Falling down with a dress over head? Never have I seen.
The laughter that you see is healing for emotions. But, laughter itself is catching no matter where or who you are. I recently watched a video of a group on a subway that were all laughing because one woman was reading something funny.
The joy of the Lord is our strength.
The shaking? Have you ever been touched by an electrical current? Your body responds. These things aren't happening in every meeting. And all crowds will draw people that are all different. It's easy to look at one and think this is just too crazy to be real, until He touches you.
I believe Holy Spirit wants to interact with us much more than we so far have experienced, and nothing He does is in vain.
Falling down with a dress over head? Never have I seen.
Last edited:
Your understanding doesn't agree with scripture. All heard in their own native languages. This was the miracle of pentecost. What was the meaning of your running shoes comment ? What was I running from ?
Acts 2
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?
Acts 2
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?
The law of God informs us signs are for those who believe not (no faith) . Prophecy, the word of God for those who believe God.
The three thousand souls who did believe to the salvation of their souls, believed prophecy hearing it in their own language as the Holy Spirit interpreted it, a tool to preach the Gospel (prophecy) in other languages
The Jews who did recognize Isaiah 28 walked away in unbelief, confirming Isaiah 28 which was against them .
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.......
This people above... the unbelieving Jews (no faith)
We walk by faith, the unseen eternal, not by sight after a experience as a work we could perform.
No such thing as a sign gift.
The three thousand souls who did believe to the salvation of their souls, believed prophecy hearing it in their own language as the Holy Spirit interpreted it, a tool to preach the Gospel (prophecy) in other languages
The Jews who did recognize Isaiah 28 walked away in unbelief, confirming Isaiah 28 which was against them .
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.......
This people above... the unbelieving Jews (no faith)
We walk by faith, the unseen eternal, not by sight after a experience as a work we could perform.
No such thing as a sign gift.
Hi Stonesoffire: I was in the Pentecostal movement for a long time and I believe there to be people in that movement that are good Christian folks. Over time and a lot of study I have come to believe that the Pentecostal movement itself that started around 1906 was not of the Lord, and also, much of what is being taught in Pentecostal meetings today is not really of God. I have been in all kinds of meetings and I realize now that God was protecting me from all the strange spirits that others were involved with. In a word, pentecostalism is filled with false spirits that people think to be the Holy Spirit. Satan can not nor would not mimic the Holy Spirit, however he can cause those who do not actually follow the literal NT examples of the Holy Spirit in action, to be fooled into thinking they are following the Holy Spirit when they are actually following false spirits. One of the popular sayings among Pentecostals is, you cannot put God in a box. This statement is made in order to justify all the strange spiritual manifestations. The truth is that God has put Himself in a box...in this case a book(bible)so that we will not be fooled by the Devil. If something is not clearly in scripture...BACK OFF. To proceed could cost you your soul.