Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?

[garee]

The gift of interpretation is not mentioned in that passage. It is hard to figure out exactly what you are reading into that passage. I understand every word in that sentence, but I don't get your point.

Do you understand that when Peter spoke His own language more than 10 other languages were interpreted by God as a inspired revelation?

Peter did not speak in tongues . Tongues are sign for those who believe not.

I don't see anyone in this thread glorifying Peter or claiming that the ability to speak in tongues or for other people to hear him came from Peter.

Yes it was all the work of God .Some would say Peter spoke in tongues, ten different languages all at once, and not his normal language.It would seem some are ignoring the law below as if it was just a good theory?

1Co 14:22 Wherefore "tongues are for a sign", not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

What would be blaspheming? And how is whatever you are talking about relevant to the discussion?

Blasphemy world be to attribute to Peter who spoke the words that God put on Peters lips(prophecy) or the interpretation thererof. .

Men neither get the credit for speaking prophecy in their own language and the same to those in whom the Holy Spirit did the interpreting.

All of the gifts work in each person to the one who speaks the word of God to the one that hears it in their own language.

Divers tongues is also given to individuals in the body of Christ for the common good. The individual who speaks in tongues edifies himself. We know this is a good thing because of Paul's comment, 'I would that ye all spake with tongues'. It is better to interpret in addition to speaking in tongues or else prophesy, which we could see in Paul's other comment 'but rather that ye prophesied.'

Again it’s not speaking in tongues its "hearing prophecy" in one’s own languages a work of the Holy Spirit not after any man.
You say that over and over again.

I don't know what you mean by that. I suspect no one else on the forum does but yourself. The term 'sign gift' is typically used by cessationists who want a category to put all the gifts they aren't comfortable with in so they can get rid of the whole category in their theology, at least as far as practical application in the church today is concerned.

No one said the spiritual gifts (not seen) must be done away with. Tongues was a sign to those who had no faith.

I would think living in a society that is taught the idea of “sign gifts” is where what I would call in this case the confusion begins. No such things as a sign gift to prove a person has the Holy Spirit.

The apostate Jews sought after a sign of themselves doing (experiencing) some religious work as evidence Christ is with them. (self righteousness) The cross was their stumbling block that remains today.

It is why Christ said to them below.

And ye have not “his word” abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.”Search the scriptures”; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.I receive “not honour” from men.. Joh 5:38

Therefore making the word of Christ, the faith of God without effect.

We walk by the faith of Christ, not after some work we can do and call that a gift. Signs are for those who believe not.

That law is not subject to change by an outward work we could perform..

 

[notuptome]

Miracles like the Apostles did seems to put a specific burden on God? Why did God do what He did through the Apostles? Did the Apostles make demands upon God to do what God did? Is God obligated to heal sick and infirmed folks on demand? If a so called healer drags them onto the stage and calls down the power of God to heal someone is God enslaved to the healers commands? Doesn't this sound like the other malefactor on the cross next to the Savior?

Our faith is always weak and insufficient. Gods determinate will is not dependent on the insufficient faith of man. Does God operate in mercy to heal the infirmed? Does God in mercy also heal the lost? Is it not the goodness of God that leads men to repentance?

Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Problem with this formula is that you cannot market it and sell it for big money.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[MattTooFor]

You seem reluctant to do that in chapter 14 as well.

No reluctance. I have made innumerable comments about 1Cor.14. Yes, there were many times when "tongues" were spoken when no foreigners were present to appreciate, in wonder and awe, the miracle of someone speaking their language. It was apparently used by God to give the believers divinely authorized knowledge and teaching in the years before the NT writings began circulating.

But you have to synthesize and harmonize Acts 2 with 1Corinthians (and Acts 10 and 18). Acts 2 is the anchor passage. It is where we see the first descriptions of "tongues" and can derive definitions.

The thing about "tongues" in 1Cor. 14 is...first of all, it was used in close conjunction with the gift of prophecy, according to the text. Clearly, Paul is saying that if an outsider at first was dubious over the "tongues" which he found to be indecipherable...well then, when his heart was pierced by dead-on "prophecies" about his personal life. it would then, according to the text, powerfully move him to repentance.

Try that on ME sometime! Do it right now! Why not? Remember the Roman centurion (Matthew 8:5-10) who requested of Jesus that He perform a healing miracle from miles away.

How about YOU give me a prophecy about MY life? Or if you claim not to have the "gift of prophecy", get one of your friends who you think DOES have this gift...and then give me a prophecy...right here in front of the "Christian Chat" fellowship...which I'm sure you would see as "glorifying to God". I'm the perfect candidate- I'm an unbeliever.

I could very easily pre-deposit a huge swath of my current personal trials, tribulations, triumphs, etc. (of course, without divulging my name or address and such) with a third party. Perhaps it could be deposited with the owner/administrator of this discussion board, providing it can be ascertained you don't have any relationship.

This is an opportunity to make a statement to the flock of Christian Chat...the same way dramatic confirmation was achieved in olden times when unbelievers were so astonished by these words of "prophecy" they collapsed to the ground.

But I would have this request: Before you convey this prophecy, I would ask that you (obviously, in writing) renounce and denounce Lucifer/Tyr...repudiate him as the biggest loser in the universe and who is headed for the eternal fiery judgements of God which he richly deserves.

The only reason I make that request is because I have seen firsthand, evidence of evil paranormal phenomena in Charismatic circles. Occultists/wolves who have infiltrated Christian fellowships and perform occult-powered "miracles". I had a friend who had his broken back "healed" by someone referred by a "pastor". Upon closer examination (yes, contrary to your claims I have done a TON of personal research on these matters)...the guy turned out to be a warlock.

There are a TON of confused Charismatics these days who mix and match Christianity and occult powers. They go to church on Sunday and read their horoscope and go to a psychic on Monday.

I'll be standing by. I am absolutely sincere in my offer.

 

[fredoheaven]

The Bible teaches, in I Corinthians 12, that the Spirit gives the gift of working of miracles to members of the body of Christ as He wills. It never teaches or hints at this gift being removed. You have no authority to say that the Spirit will not give the gift or that He cannot give the gift.



Sure, and if you will read the rest of Acts, you will see that Philip and Stephen also did such things. If you read the Old Testament, you can read of the miracles Moses and Elisha did.



Where do you get that? A misinterpretation of a verse from II Corinthians? Wherever you get it, your interpretation contradicts the passages about Stephen and Philip doing signs, the ones the disciples forbade to cast out demons in Jesus' name, and I Corinthians 12.



Sure, and also 'them that heard him.' But these are not limited exclusively to the apostles. Why do cessationists like to read 'only' into passages where it is not written?



No it does not. You refer to verses about the apostles doing signs.

I can use the same line of reasoning to argue that people do not eat fish or honey. I can show a verse that shows our Lord eating fish and honey after His resurrection. I could argue, therefore, that no one else has ever eaten fish or honey since then. That's the same sort of arguing you are making.

Yea I need to rephrase some wordings to fit our understanding for the “exclusivity of the apostles” of doing sign and wonders.

Yes true for Stephen or Philip, the evangelist did miracles and healings as the two (2) were chosen, prayed and “layed with hands” by the twelve apostles in Acts 6:5-6 that according to this rite and ceremony, the laying on the hands by the apostles might confer extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit to the believers either to make miracles, signs or wonders etc. However, we have to notice that while Philip did miracles in Acts 8 yet did not lay on hands to those who have believed in order that persons might receive extraordinary gifts and perform acts of miracles. It was actually Peter and John who came to Samaria and “lay hands” to the believers.

On the other occasion, Simon, the sorcerer had offered those believers who have been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit but Peter resist him that he has no lot or office of these special gifts peculiar to the Apostles. This exclusivity of the Apostles to lay hand is indeed a miracle, or signs or wonders aside from performing the usual and actual miracles they performed.

Concerning this laying on with hands to confer extraordinary gifts by the apostles cease when the apostles themselves died. This follows them even their death.

The reports by the early church fathers in particular by Iraneues may still hold true since the death of the Apostle John which took place at the close of the 1 ce. AD which may probably those who have been conferred with such gifts who were still alive until everyone or the last man standing died. This maybe the key to unlock the reports in Against Heresies though I would not let that reports during 175-185 AD as the final authority relative to this discussion in mind.

Simply I go to the words of God.

God bless

 

[presidente]

Yea I need to rephrase some wordings to fit our understanding for the “exclusivity of the apostles” of doing sign and wonders.

Yes true for Stephen or Philip, the evangelist did miracles and healings as the two (2) were chosen, prayed and “layed with hands” by the twelve apostles in Acts 6:5-6 that according to this rite and ceremony, the laying on the hands by the apostles might confer extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit to the believers either to make miracles, signs or wonders etc.

That was the Benjamin Warfield approach. I recently posted a link to an article that pointed out that Benjamin Warfield admitted that cessation of miracles was not taught in scripture, but then went on to present his theory.

The problem with the theory is that it restricts the Spirit by the guestwork of man. We need to recognize God as sovereign, and cessationists have a problem with the sovereignty of God. Just looking at scripture, the ability to do miracles was not limited to those on whom the apostles laid their hands. This is obvious when we look at other miracle workers like Moses and Elijah. What do you have to do to preserve the Warfield theory, put the apostles in a time machine and send them back to secretly lay hands on Moses?

However, we have to notice that while Philip did miracles in Acts 8 yet did not lay on hands to those who have believed in order that persons might receive extraordinary gifts and perform acts of miracles. It was actually Peter and John who came to Samaria and “lay hands” to the believers.

The thing we need to keep in mind is 'The Wind bloweth where it listeth.' We can't make a list of rules and place them on the Spirit of God. We have no such authority. Maybe there is something to learn about the 'core' ministry of an evangelist from the fact that the evangelist in this passage did miracles, but did not lay hands on others to receive the Holy Ghost and left that to the apostolic ministry. But we can't make a rule that the Spirit cannot work through an evangelist in this way.

Ananias is not called an apostle or an evangelist. Yet he was sent to Saul of Tarsus that he might be healed and that he might receive the Holy Ghost. He laid hands on Saul of Tarsus. Saul, also known as Paul, based on his own testimony, did not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the ability to speak in tongues, the ability to do miracles through the laying on of hands of the apostles. How do we know this? When he went to Jerusalem, he said they who seemed to be somewhat 'added nothing to me.'

In Acts 8, the Spirit fell on believers after the apostles laid hands on them. Philip the evangelist didn't lay hands on them. If you want to make a doctrine out of that and say that empowerment from the Spirit or spiritual gifts only came through the apostles hands, then Paul's experiences and testimony recorded in scripture disprove your doctrine. He was filled with the Spirit and empowered without the laying on of hands of an apostle. The Lord even made him an apostle--how much greater ministry gift can you get--without the laying hands of an apostle. If the Lord can impart that gift without the laying on of hands of an apostle, why not the working of miracles, gifts of healing, prophecy, or tongues?

Actually, in Acts 10, there is no reference to Peter laying hands on the Gentiles there, and the idea that he did while preaching is extremely unlikely. The Spirit fell on them and they spoke in tongues and magnified God. There goes Warfield's theory down the toilet again. How many times do we have to flush this thing?

On the other occasion, Simon, the sorcerer had offered those believers who have been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit but Peter resist him that he has no lot or office of these special gifts peculiar to the Apostles. This exclusivity of the Apostles to lay hand is indeed a miracle, or signs or wonders aside from performing the usual and actual miracles they performed.

The fact that spiritual gifts could be imparted through the laying on of the apostles' hands in a particular passage does not prove that these spiritual gifts were ONLY imparted through the laying on of an apostles hands. This is especially the case when there are several examples of spiritual gifts being imparted WITHOUT the laying on of the apostles hands.

Timothy had a spiritual gift in him given through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders.

Concerning this laying on with hands to confer extraordinary gifts by the apostles cease when the apostles themselves died. This follows them even their death.

The reports by the early church fathers in particular by Iraneues may still hold true since the death of the Apostle John which took place at the close of the 1 ce. AD which may probably those who have been conferred with such gifts who were still alive until everyone or the last man standing died. This maybe the key to unlock the reports in Against Heresies though I would not let that reports during 175-185 AD as the final authority relative to this discussion in mind.

Warfield seemed to see Irenaeus's experience with these spiritual gifts as a problem from history he had to argue away. There is plenty of other historical evidence for miracles and spiritual gifts that contradict Warfield's theory, but Irenaeus was prominent enough and important enough for the history of orthodoxy to get his attention, I suppose.

Just doing a bit of reading online, I see that Ireneaus is believed to have written Against Heresies around 180 AD. I've seen 98 AD as a date for the apostle John's death. Let's suppose John laid hands on an infant, a baby at birth. He'd have been 80 years old about the time Irenaeus wrote his epistle. Irenaeus was a missionary, ministering way up in what is now France, so he likely was surrounded by people he converted. Why would he have written as if brethren around him in his own time were doing miracles that late? And why would his own church have had success at raising the dead if the folks there had to have had an apostle laid hands on them?

Warfield's excuse doesn't hold water just looking at history, aside from the fact that there are actual scriptures that flat out contradict his theory.

 

[Timothy416]

Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?

Are we not Spirit filled like they were or is it from lack of faith, prayer, or fasting?

I believe we experience some miracles but nothing like they did.

Biblically speaking miracles were evidence of the truth of the message being preached( john10:38, Acts14:3, Heb2:4)
And those through whom these miracles came had fully dedicated their lives to God

 

[MattTooFor]

My my my. This guy ("presidente") was a literal verbiage machine for days on end...but when I offered him the opportunity to prophesy...he becomes quiet as a church mouse. Disappears like a snowball in July (or a snowball in January, for you Australians on the board). Gosh, I didn't see that coming. (not)

How about YOU give me a prophecy about MY life? Or if you claim not to have the "gift of prophecy", get one of your friends who you think DOES have this gift...and then give me a prophecy...right here in front of the "Christian Chat" fellowship...

I'll be standing by. I am absolutely sincere in my offer.

I would actually LOVE to receive a precision-targeted prophecy about my life. It would be utterly fantastic. Be able to lay my head on the pillow at night with the Holy Spirit having whispered sweet nothings into my ears only hours before at a church service. All doubt removed that God is completely aware and on top of all the details of my life. All the trials, tribulations, challenges. NO MORE FAITH REQUIRED. The Christian life would become a cake-walk, relatively speaking. No longer having to live "by faith but not by sight".


And we would steamroll the world with our Christianity. If the number of spectacular Jesus-style miracles were to have increased proportionally with the world's Christian population...the whole world would be in an uproar. Back in the day, the mighty Roman empire was up in arms. The tiny Christian population with their spectacular signs and wonders were uncontrollable and sweeping across the empire like a wildfire. The 'powers that be' tried to slaughter them, imprison them, squelch them in any way they knew how.


Finally, around 300 AD (and presumably after the sign gifts had disappeared per the predictions of 1Cor. 13:8-10) the Devil came up with the fairly effective idea of absorbing Christianity into a weird, occult mish-mash religion called "Catholicism".

The Bible teaches, in I Corinthians 12, that the Spirit gives the gift of working of miracles to members of the body of Christ as He wills. It never teaches or hints at this gift being removed.

That's great. So, how about you give us one example of a well-known, well-documented person right here in America...who was healed instantly from life-long total physical impairment from vision. Stone-blind their entire life. Or...someone who was healed from life-long paralysis. Healed instantly at the hands of a person allegedly having the "gift of healing".

And these must be people who were well-known to the community BEFORE they were healed. This was one of the chief features of Jesus' miracles -- He would heal someone EVERYONE KNEW ABOUT BEFOREHAND.

And also, the actual healer guy...we would need to see that he was a completely 'above board' individual with plainly evident Christian integrity. There are plenty of false miracle workers around. These infiltrating satanic witches and warlocks inevitably 'mark' themselves in some fashion. They invariably covertly indicate their satanic allegiances in a coded fashion. Read about suspected wolf and Christian music star Michael W. Smith, as one potential example.

Give us just one example here in America. We have iPhones. We have YouTube. We have the Information Age...where anyone, anywhere in any nook or cranny of America has INSTANT access to all of the rest of the American community via the Internet. If there are the same proportional numbers of miracle healers as there were in olden times...there should be thousands or at the very, very least...hundreds of examples to choose from, right here in the good ol' US of A.

Not Bangladesh (no disrespect to Bangladeshis)...not 23 years ago...and not a story passed along from a friend of a friend (of a friend who heard it from a missionary who heard it from a Bangladeshi pastor who heard it from a...).


We are all standing by.

 

[RickyZ]

but when I offered him the opportunity to prophesy...he becomes quiet as a church mouse.

Obviously you don't understand how this works. It is by God's leading, not yours.

 

[88]

https://youtu.be/SYTZAu4tVCQ Prophetic word given in 2007...

 

[MattTooFor]

Obviously you don't understand how this works. It is by God's leading, not yours.

I'm not trying to "lead" anything. I'm simply presenting myself to the 'congregation' of Charismatics and Pentecostals here at "Christian Chat" and curious about this "gift of prophecy" thing.

It is quite interesting that...no sooner have I stepped into your cyber-sanctuary that I am then treated to a borderline rebuke.

Is this how things went in the early church? A locally known 'unbeliever' stops by the Christian fellowship group inquiring as to the supernatural miracles which were confirming the Gospel message and the moment he sets foot in their church meeting, he's slapped with:

"What are YOU doing here?"

Unbeliever: "Well, I had been told there was an abundance of miracles".

How many meetings would an unbeliever have to attend before he would see the miraculous "gift of tongues" or "gift of prophecy"?

Your statement appears to be a 'cop out'.

 

[aldy]

I asked: Are you saved? That if you die today, tonight, tomorrow or the next day, are you sure 100% you are going to heaven?

YES, I'm very sure, if not, I don't talk about all these things

 

[aldy]

There are false apostles of today because there are no longer true apostles of today...

No there are false apostles of today because the bible said:
2Corinthians 11:13 - 15
13 | For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, fashioning themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 | And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light.
15 | It is no great thing therefore if his ministers also fashion themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.

there is no scripture telling there are no longer true apostles of today. You invent this thing

 

[MattTooFor]

https://youtu.be/SYTZAu4tVCQ Prophetic word given in 2007...

Seriously? How many people had been predicting and calling for Trump presidency for years? That's not a confirming "miracle". And the guy doesn't have very good spiritual discernment because...both Donald Trump and Bill Gates are earlobe-deep in satanic evil.

And the guy behind this YouTube has actually admitted he is a false prophet. Apparently, he should've been stoned long ago, lol.

Kim Clement Admits He is a False Prophet

-----
Kim Clement:“I do not believe you must be born again to obtain salvation.”

“When you’re born again the Bible doesn’t say that you are saved. The Bible says that when you are born again you see the kingdom it doesn’t say that you are saved even though salvation takes place and rebirth causes you to see the kingdom of God.” (The prophetic ministry of Kim Clement, Aug. 13, 2002 TBN)
-------

Frankly, this guy shows signs of being an actual wolf when he makes such statements and when he is backing satanically-evil individuals such as Gates and Trump in his false prophecies.

Numerous false prophecies from this guy. Below, he "prophecies of the "fall of Babylon" before the year 2000. It never happened:

Prophet Kim Clement December 19, 1997 Detroit Flame Kim Clement: “And therefore, salvation is coming says the Lord in a swift manner. But before it does, before the year 2000, I will strike to the very core the defiant forces that have risen against My people. I will strike them down to nothing. They will be as nothing. And they will say, look one minute we were strong, one minute we were powerful, look we have been stricken down. Because Babylon the Great is great fallen, is fallen.”

Many more of his false prophecies at this Link



Next

 

[MattTooFor]

Obviously you don't understand how this works. It is by God's leading, not yours.

And one more question--You say I don't know "how this works". What do you mean - "how this works"?

The way it "worked" was...unbelievers would go to a church and miracles would happen...apparently in over-abundance, according to Paul's descriptions. That's how it "worked".

How many times would a believer need to attend a fellowship before these miracles would be demonstrated?

I am reporting myself to your Charismatic/Pentecostal cyber-congregation every day of the week...waiting to see these miracles.

Yes, I am an 'unbeliever' (regarding your claims of miracles). Yes, I am a skeptic. Those are precisely the people who were (in Paul's words) compelled to "fall down on their faces"...thunderstruck by the precision accuracy of the prophecies regarding their personal lives.

Does being an 'unbelieving skeptic' disqualify someone from becoming a beneficiary of these miracles? No, it was PRECISELY the opposite. It was specifically FOR unbelievers...to cause them to fall on their face before God.

I'm here. I am presenting myself to the Charismatic/Pentecostal congregation at "Christian Chat".

Convert me. I would love, love, love...to be converted. I would love to have the Holy Spirit whispering sweet nothings into my ears...giving me absolute and resounding confirmation of His 'watch-care' over my life and the lives of my family and loved ones.

Oh but wait...we're called to live by "faith and not by sight". Being held safely in the arms of Jesus comes later. Believe me - I long for that day.

 

[aldy]

You said : A deep self-analysis, greater works

I say: Does the bible say something about that? I read the Bible, study His words, memorize, searched the scriptures, I grow with the Words of God.

Good,
however many do the same things but many of them never able to catch the truth
2Timothy 3:7
7 | ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 10:1 - 2
1 | Brethren, my heart's desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved.
2 | For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

when I say self-analysis, I mean you should question yourself if you are taking a wrong way

The very thing that Jesus did to come here on earth was to redeem us that’s why He was called the Saviour. He came to seek and save that which was lost. Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. He died for us, buried and resurrected. The message is the preaching of the cross 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God., or the preaching of the Gospel1 Corintians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. The preaching of the gospel is the power of God unto salvation that believes. Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Now that Jesus said about the ‘greater works’ since Christ is about to ascend to heaven and his physical presence will be not be seen no more is all about the greater works of preaching the Gospel to all nations, to every creature. Matthew 28:19-20 says to His disciples to “Go ye unto all the world” , the scope is greater than Jerusalem, not only to the Jew but also to the Greeks or Gentiles. Mark 16 says Preach the Gospel. The Great Commission is the greater works mention by Christ.

It's very clear, but it's not the problem
till the begining of time, at the time of prophet, and apostle and now, miracles are still in existence to give him witness, God himself love to show it
Hebrews 2:4
4 | God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to his own will.
life without miracle???life without God
it's normal for a christian to see his miracles or God changed???

Romans 15:19
19 | in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Holy Spirit; so that from Jerusalem, and round about even unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ;
It's normal for a preacher to see miracles
if you do a deep self analysis like you've said, I think you must be the first one to see God's miracles,
because Romans 10:17
17 | So belief 'cometh' of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

when you see the bible saying:
Mark 16:17 - 18
17 | And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 | they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
it must be accomplished in you unless you must question yourself why???

No matter what you say to contradict me, you overestimate yourself too much

 

[MattTooFor]

Matthew 6:33 ​

33[SUP]a[/SUP]| But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness...​

Just a quick aside. Are you by any chance a Freemason? And/or a 33° Mason? I'm looking at your bottom caption. Potentially a sly indication...particularly with the font you are using for that upper "a". I apologize if I am wrong.

 

[presidente]

My my my. This guy ("presidente") was a literal verbiage machine for days on end...but when I offered him the opportunity to prophesy...he becomes quiet as a church mouse. Disappears like a snowball in July (or a snowball in January, for you Australians on the board). Gosh, I didn't see that coming. (not)

This seems rather smart alec to me to respond like that when a message hasn't been answered in a while. I knew what I wanted to say to garee and you when I read your post, but I had to go to work. I wanted to write my response when I read the message, but I decided to spend the window of time I had working out and doing other things. I've got a house guest right now (my mother-in-law, and my father-in-law is coming in a few days.)

 

[presidente]

No reluctance. I have made innumerable comments about 1Cor.14. Yes, there were many times when "tongues" were spoken when no foreigners were present to appreciate, in wonder and awe, the miracle of someone speaking their language.

In Corinth that was apparently the norm, and if one interpreted, it is normative for the congregation.

But you have to synthesize and harmonize Acts 2 with 1Corinthians (and Acts 10 and 18). Acts 2 is the anchor passage. It is where we see the first descriptions of "tongues" and can derive definitions.

Can you show me some reference to this 'anchor passage' concept you are referring to? Is there a theologian who promotes it? It would be best if you could show me where this occurs in the Bible.

I think from reading the narrative of Acts, we would agree that I Corinthians was written before Acts, before Paul leaving Greece to go back to Jerusalem, and then to Rome. Since I Corinthians was first, why would Acts 2 be an 'anchor passage.'

There are three occasions where individuals are said to have spoken in tongues in Acts and we read about speaking in tongues in Corinth. On only one occasion, when the Spirit was poured out, do we read about those who understood the tongue being present. We also don't read about people hearing wind and seeing fire in Acts 10 or 19 or I Corinthians.

it would then, according to the text, powerfully move him to repentance.

Try that on ME sometime! Do it right now! Why not? Remember the Roman centurion (Matthew 8:5-10) who requested of Jesus that He perform a healing miracle from miles away.

How about YOU give me a prophecy about MY life? Or if you claim not to have the "gift of prophecy", get one of your friends who you think DOES have this gift...and then give me a prophecy...right here in front of the "Christian Chat" fellowship...which I'm sure you would see as "glorifying to God". I'm the perfect candidate- I'm an unbeliever.

I haven't been claiming to have the gift of prophecy. I do know people who prophesy from time to time, one I have access to, but they don't just make something up on the spot. The thing about the gift of prophecy is that it is extremely dependant on the Spirit of God, since you can't do the real thing unless you are saying what the Spirit is moving you to say. I wouldn't want a 'made up' version of prophecy spoken to me as if it were the real thing.

If you consider yourself an unbeliever, I'm thinking of other occasions where an unbeliever asked for a prophecy as a kind of challenge. What comes to mind are the soldiers who blindfolded and hit Jesus and said to prophesy to them who hit him. There were also the Jews who demanded a sign of Jesus. You say you are sincere, but your smart alecky response when I did to answer your post for a day does not strike me as very sincere.

Since real prophecies are what the Spirit wants to say, why don't you pray for a prophecy instead of demanding or requesting it from people? Are you that sincere about it?

By the way, if someone believes the gift of administration exists, does that mean that the church should have him do all the church accounting and prove the gift exists? If that isn't his gift, then he may not do a good job at it. It would be foolish of him to try to operate in a gift he didn't have. (I don't really think skill in accounting is the exact same as the gift of administration, btw, but that's a different topic.) In spite of all the dangers of bad accounting, even messing up the books isn't as bad as giving a false prophecy.

But I would have this request: Before you convey this prophecy, I would ask that you (obviously, in writing) renounce and denounce Lucifer/Tyr...repudiate him as the biggest loser in the universe and who is headed for the eternal fiery judgements of God which he richly deserves.

The only reason I make that request is because I have seen firsthand, evidence of evil paranormal phenomena in Charismatic circles. Occultists/wolves who have infiltrated Christian fellowships and perform occult-powered "miracles". I had a friend who had his broken back "healed" by someone referred by a "pastor". Upon closer examination (yes, contrary to your claims I have done a TON of personal research on these matters)...the guy turned out to be a warlock.

I think you are naive in having people renounce Lucifer. I wonder why you go with 'Lucifer' instead of 'Satan' which is clearer. But there is no reason to think that a witch can't renounce the devil, and then do something demonic. I John has a passage about the spirit that confesses that Christ came in the flesh is from God, and I Corinthians 12 says no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus Lord.

 

[presidente]

Peter did not speak in tongues . Tongues are sign for those who believe not.

Acts 2
4 [FONT=&quot]And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (NKJV)[/FONT]

Why should we believe you? Why would Peter be excluded from 'they'? You post some weird things. Paul spoke with tongues. The verse about tongues being a sign to them that believe not does not mean that those who speak in tongues are not believers? Is that what you are trying to say?

Blasphemy world be to attribute to Peter who spoke the words that God put on Peters lips(prophecy) or the interpretation thererof. .

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. Who is doing that? Show me where the Bible this is called blasphemy.

Let's say Jeremiah prophesied something, and I quote it and say "Jeremiah said", I would not be blaspheming to say that. Maybe I would be accidentally leaving out some information, but it is not factually false to say that 'Jeremiah said' if he was prophesying by the Spirit of God. People will say such things, and in context the audience knows they are talking about Jeremiah's prophecies. Look up the phrase 'spoken by the prophet Isaiah' in the New Testament. It is not blasephemy to write such a phrase.

Again it’s not speaking in tongues its "hearing prophecy" in one’s own languages a work of the Holy Spirit not after any man.

Acts 2 tells us that they spoke in other languages.

You say that over and over again.

In context, I don't know what you are talking about. What does 'that' refer to in your sentence?

I would think living in a society that is taught the idea of “sign gifts” is where what I would call in this case the confusion begins. No such things as a sign gift to prove a person has the Holy Spirit.

Spiritual gifts fulfill the functions the Bible teaches they function. If you see a wrong emphasis in relation to spiritual gifts, that does not do away with the functions and purposes the Bible teaches about spiritual gifts.

The apostate Jews sought after a sign of themselves doing (experiencing) some religious work as evidence Christ is with them. (self righteousness)

This is really confusing. Why would Jews who do not believe in Christ would want evidence that Christ was with them? Do you mean they wanted evidence that the Messiah, which they did not believe was Jesus, but Who really is Jesus, was with them? It does not make sense to equate witnessing Jesus do a sign with the Jews doing a religious work.

If you want people to understand your point, you'll need to break down what you are saying and explain what your point is. Otherwise, it almost seems like a game of madlibs, or like writing down some religious words and prhases and trying to but them all together somehow into one sentence without much rhyme or reason behind it.

We walk by the faith of Christ, not after some work we can do and call that a gift. Signs are for those who believe not.

Christians are supposed to do good works. Doing good works is a good thing. The Bible teaches that God has prepared in advance for the saints to do good works (Eph. 2:10). Christians doing miracles by the power of God is a good thing. Christians performing signs and wonders as they preach the Gospel is a good thing. The accounts of Christians doing such things in the Bible are positive about it. If other people see that God is at work through a believer through signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit, that is a good thing.

If someone believes God for something he does not see and receives what he believes for, that does not violate 'for we walk by faith and not by sight.'

 

[samuel23]

Tongues does not bother me much though I believe that much of it is fake. What bothers me is the attitude that we Pentecostals are all going around filled with the Spirit(prideful attitude), and they are proud about the crazy things that they do, claiming that it is God making them do it.