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Thread: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Unconditional election in that whosoever will may come. Conditional in that man must choose to come. Esau preferred a bowl of beans to his birthright.

    What shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    Mt 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    Right. Jesus lied in John 3, so you can be right.

    And then Paul lied in Romans 8 & 9, so you can be right.

    Easy as that. Gotcha.
    SovereignGrace likes this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Speaking of John 3

    John 3:36

    36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    ^^^ That is clearly a condition.

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmador View Post
    Speaking of John 3

    John 3:36

    36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

    ^^^ That is clearly a condition.
    I agree that salvation is conditional, but the question is, is election conditional?

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    I agree that salvation is conditional, but the question is, is election conditional?
    Yes, that's conditional.

    G-d electing someone is based on the framework he laid out. G-d has decided that "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

    First, election depends on whether G-d even wants to save anyone. (Independent variable)

    Second, because of G-d's framework, man must accept G-d's gift of salvation. Note that this second condition can't happen without the first. (Dependent variable)

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmador View Post
    G-d electing someone is based on the framework he laid out. G-d has decided that "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

    First, election depends on whether G-d even wants to save anyone. (Independent variable)

    Second, because of G-d's framework, man must accept G-d's gift of salvation. Note that this second condition can't happen without the first. (Dependent variable)
    Election biblically speaking is always linked to a people. God elects a people not a plan. I could never find in the bible of God electing a plan. Yes God has a plan obviously but his electing is towards a people. Even more God knows these people from before the foundations of the world.

    I agree that salvation is conditional but election is not rooted or grounded in my ability to choose or reject him. Election is rooted and grounded in the active purposes of God that he has towards his people.

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    Moving on from the previous thread of Total Depravity we end on the TULIP acronym, letter U.

    U standing for Unconditional Election...

    What scriptures and arguments are there to support Election being 1) Unconditional or 2) Conditional?

    If one starts with the premise that we cannot (unable) to choose God UNLESS God first chooses to do a work in us so that we respond by faith to him, then it ties in with Total Depravity and would render election UNCONDITIONAL.
    However if one starts with the premise that we can choose God through our free will then in turn denies Total depravity, one holds that the choice has been given to us by God and he is waiting for us to respond by faith to him that therefore would render election CONDITIONAL.

    Which is a biblical and accurate picture of how election takes place?
    Conditional. Jesus said wide is the gate that leads to hell, and most enter through it, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few FIND it. You find the truth through much study and prayer- which most people are unwilling to do. Not to mention the fact that the Bible, especially the New Testament, is chuck full of "if"s. "If" is a conditional statement, requiring a choice. For example, "IF you remain faithful till the end, you will receive a crown of life."
    wwjd_kilden likes this.

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    Election biblically speaking is always linked to a people. God elects a people not a plan. I could never find in the bible of God electing a plan. Yes God has a plan obviously but his electing is towards a people. Even more God knows these people from before the foundations of the world.

    I agree that salvation is conditional but election is not rooted or grounded in my ability to choose or reject him. Election is rooted and grounded in the active purposes of God that he has towards his people.
    Even deciding whether election happens is conditional. Election happens on the condition of whether or not G-d decided to practice election. You might not have found any verses that show G-d's plan of salvation (which he most probably elected), but all other Christians in the world have found G-d's plan of salvation. And it's summed up in John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." G-d doesn't believe in himself. G-d doesn't choose himself. G-d doesn't have faith in himself. The bible teaches that men believe, choose, seek, and have faith in G-d with G-d's grace and providence of course.

    Acts 13:22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'

    First, election depends on whether G-d even wants to save anyone. (Independent variable)

    Second, because of G-d's framework, man must accept G-d's gift of salvation. Note that this second condition can't happen without the first. (Dependent variable)

    No of course, you choosing salvation isn't the root as to why your saved. The root of your salvation is what Christ did on the cross. Without Christ there is no possibility of salvation (further evidence of election being conditional... based on the condition that Christ as a sacrifice was offered). However, after that root cause has been planted. You have to accept your salvation. Because... "John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

    Ability is a word that's far too vague.The bible teaches that salvation is not based on any good works you did, but on the finished work of Christ. You simply have to accept the finished work of Christ to be saved. There is no additional work that you are doing by accepting His finished work. Faith is not a work. Otherwise, the book of James wouldn't teach faith and works as different things. Faith without works is dead faith. If faith was a work then James would never call faith "dead faith" without works because faith would be a work by default.

    Even if we allow the word ability. Well, the Calvinist agrees by default that G-d gives man the ability to practice faith. So, even then, it does depend on your G-d given ability (which I also believe, but in a non-Calvinistic perspective) to put your faith in Christ. G-d himself says this too often... you must have faith.

    I think the thing that gives G-d all the glory is that he offers it all. He gives you life. He gives you the ability to practice faith. He give you the sacrifice of Christ. Without all that and maybe some other thing I missed... it's impossible be saved. G-d provided it all. He doesn't have to force you to believe in him to have all the glory.
    Magenta likes this.

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmador View Post
    Even deciding whether election happens is conditional. Election happens on the condition of whether or not G-d decided to practice election. You might not have found any verses that show G-d's plan of salvation (which he most probably elected), but all other Christians in the world have found G-d's plan of salvation. And it's summed up in John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." G-d doesn't believe in himself. G-d doesn't choose himself. G-d doesn't have faith in himself. The bible teaches that men believe, choose, seek, and have faith in G-d with G-d's grace and providence of course.

    Acts 13:22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'

    First, election depends on whether G-d even wants to save anyone. (Independent variable)

    Second, because of G-d's framework, man must accept G-d's gift of salvation. Note that this second condition can't happen without the first. (Dependent variable)

    No of course, you choosing salvation isn't the root as to why your saved. The root of your salvation is what Christ did on the cross. Without Christ there is no possibility of salvation (further evidence of election being conditional... based on the condition that Christ as a sacrifice was offered). However, after that root cause has been planted. You have to accept your salvation. Because... "John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

    Ability is a word that's far too vague.The bible teaches that salvation is not based on any good works you did, but on the finished work of Christ. You simply have to accept the finished work of Christ to be saved. There is no additional work that you are doing by accepting His finished work. Faith is not a work. Otherwise, the book of James wouldn't teach faith and works as different things. Faith without works is dead faith. If faith was a work then James would never call faith "dead faith" without works because faith would be a work by default.

    Even if we allow the word ability. Well, the Calvinist agrees by default that G-d gives man the ability to practice faith. So, even then, it does depend on your G-d given ability (which I also believe, but in a non-Calvinistic perspective) to put your faith in Christ. G-d himself says this too often... you must have faith.

    I think the thing that gives G-d all the glory is that he offers it all. He gives you life. He gives you the ability to practice faith. He give you the sacrifice of Christ. Without all that and maybe some other thing I missed... it's impossible be saved. G-d provided it all. He doesn't have to force you to believe in him to have all the glory.
    To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Senior Member Calmador's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Another verse that shows that election is conditional. As many as received him, to them...

    John 1:12
    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    wwjd_kilden likes this.

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    In the New Testament the 'elect' [ἐκλεκτός (eklektos)] are chosen as a recipient of special privilege. That does not mean salvation and it is not conveyed anywhere in the context of the New Testament as such. The special privilege is eternal life which can only be received if we are saved and although not used as an inducement to Salvation is definitely the gift of salvation. What Calvinism uses in the U petal of their TULIP doctrine, is not supported by New Testament scripture at all. we are not elected as a result of God deciding who will be saved and who will not be saved, we are the elected as a result of us being drawn to Jesus and accepting him as our Lord and Savior. Elected is just another word for Christian but misused and taken out of context by Calvin.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Clearly the Bible says we all were the objects of God's wrath. Paul is speaking to the believers, who at one time were the object of God's wrath. Why were they in Christ? Because God chose them to be in Christ? NO! They obeyed the gospel of Christ. Forced obedience is not obedience. One cannot be the object of God's wrath if God chose them to salvation before the foundation of the world. There would be never a time they were not saved.
    Romans 9:19-21 at its finest.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    In your world, God cannot change His mind. Did God change His mind about destroying Nineveh?
    For someone to change their mind, they had to learn something to the contrart that caused them to change their mind. Does God learn anything?
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Can you answer the question please?
    Look up anthropomorphic language.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmador View Post
    Even deciding whether election happens is conditional. Election happens on the condition of whether or not G-d decided to practice election. You might not have found any verses that show G-d's plan of salvation (which he most probably elected), but all other Christians in the world have found G-d's plan of salvation. And it's summed up in John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." G-d doesn't believe in himself. G-d doesn't choose himself. G-d doesn't have faith in himself. The bible teaches that men believe, choose, seek, and have faith in G-d with G-d's grace and providence of course.

    Acts 13:22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'

    First, election depends on whether G-d even wants to save anyone. (Independent variable)

    Second, because of G-d's framework, man must accept G-d's gift of salvation. Note that this second condition can't happen without the first. (Dependent variable)

    No of course, you choosing salvation isn't the root as to why your saved. The root of your salvation is what Christ did on the cross. Without Christ there is no possibility of salvation (further evidence of election being conditional... based on the condition that Christ as a sacrifice was offered). However, after that root cause has been planted. You have to accept your salvation. Because... "John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

    Ability is a word that's far too vague.The bible teaches that salvation is not based on any good works you did, but on the finished work of Christ. You simply have to accept the finished work of Christ to be saved. There is no additional work that you are doing by accepting His finished work. Faith is not a work. Otherwise, the book of James wouldn't teach faith and works as different things. Faith without works is dead faith. If faith was a work then James would never call faith "dead faith" without works because faith would be a work by default.

    Even if we allow the word ability. Well, the Calvinist agrees by default that G-d gives man the ability to practice faith. So, even then, it does depend on your G-d given ability (which I also believe, but in a non-Calvinistic perspective) to put your faith in Christ. G-d himself says this too often... you must have faith.

    I think the thing that gives G-d all the glory is that he offers it all. He gives you life. He gives you the ability to practice faith. He give you the sacrifice of Christ. Without all that and maybe some other thing I missed... it's impossible be saved. G-d provided it all. He doesn't have to force you to believe in him to have all the glory.
    Ephesians 4:1 "just as he chose US in him before the foundations of the world". This scripture does show us that God indeed does elects a people and whats fascinating is that he doesnt choose all to be in Christ. Notice God chose us to be in him rather all to be in him.

    Romans 8:29-30 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Again here we find an exclusivity to Gods calling and election. The scripture says those whom he foreknew and predestined etc not all. So God elects a people to salvation and this people respond by faith to him.

    You will notice that not once do you see free-will inserted or mentioned. It is simply assumed we have free-will because God invites us to come, and yet the bible makes very clear we are dead in sin.
    SovereignGrace likes this.

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    Romans 9:19-21 at its finest.
    Which is based on his foreknowledge and in accordance with his will.
    1 Peter 1
    17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

    Only Jesus was chosen before the foundation of the world, not anyone else.
    John146 likes this.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    Which is based on his foreknowledge and in accordance with his will.
    1 Peter 1
    17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

    Only Jesus was chosen before the foundation of the world, not anyone else.
    Ephesians 1:4 "He chose US in him before the foundations of the world" The scripture says he chose US?
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    Ephesians 1:4 "He chose US in him before the foundations of the world" The scripture says he chose US?
    3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

    Just as Romans 8:28-30 teaches.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    I'll answer the question...no, God did not do what He said He was going to do. God changed His mind.
    Jive this notion with Numbers 23:19.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    I was once an object of God's wrath, but because I believed the gospel of Christ, God changed His mind. I am no longer an object of God's wrath.
    So, you are doubling down. First, God is not immutable and now He is not omniscience.


    Tell me...when God told Abraham "Now I know you will not hold anything from Me," Did He not know beforehand what Abraham would do?
    Last edited by SovereignGrace; January 11th, 2017 at 02:50 AM.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Can you answer the question please?
    Brother, I have tried to not be snarky, and I pray you don't take it that way. However, you are on an unsustainabe path, having impugned God's immutability and omniscience.
    preacher4truth likes this.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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