Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

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nowyouseem033

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2014
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3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Just as Romans 8:28-30 teaches.
Okay so you dismissed the fact that he chose us to be in him. The 'in him' part you highlighted is Gods purpose. In other words for what purpose did he choose us? The answer is to be in Christ. Christ is our purpose and we are the object of that purpose.

But taking serious thought though, if anybody asked the question who did God choose when looking at this passage, how can you say God chose Christ to be holy and blameless in his sight? Thats absurd because Christ is holy and blameless therefore it doesnt make sense that God chooses Christ.

BTW heres more scriptures you will need to debunk.

2 Thessolonians 2:13 "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth" where is Christ mentioned? God has chosen Christ... oh wait it doesnt say that.

Colossions 3:12-14

[FONT=&quot]So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
Does this mention Christ ... nope.

2 Timothy 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. Who are those who are chosen?? Christ???
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Romans 8:29-30
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. Who are those??? Christ?? NOPE!

So who are these people being chosen? simple question
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StanJ

Guest
Okay so you dismissed the fact that he chose us to be in him. The 'in him' part you highlighted is Gods purpose. In other words for what purpose did he choose us? The answer is to be in Christ. Christ is our purpose and we are the object of that purpose.
No the 'in him' part means God chose those who were 'in' Jesus Christ, who were already saved, for his purposes, he did not choose people to be saved. Nothing in Scripture that you can quote will show that he chose people to be saved.

B
ut taking serious thought though, if anybody asked the question who did God choose when looking at this passage, how can you say God chose Christ to be holy and blameless in his sight? Thats absurd because Christ is holy and blameless therefore it doesnt make sense that God chooses Christ.
I didn't and I have no idea why you think I did? I said those that were chosen were chosen 'in him'.
Sorry, I failed to anticipate that you would not understand the basic English of the verse. But that's kind of why I referenced Romans 8:28 - 30, unless of course you don't understand that English either?



 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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God is not a respecter of persons and he is a kind and loving father and a loving father doesn't have two children treasures and loves one but hates and discards another.
Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated.

God is the righteous judge. He is only said to be Father to those who believe, whom He make righteous in Christ.

.
And as for who am I top say what love it? I can say what love is because I have seen known and was shown and taught what love is. Above all other things what I sought after in him was love what love really is what it means to be love to know love to see through loves eyes and to have a heart that is deeply enriched in love.
And in my searching for this answer he more than fulfilled my request.
To compare the love of God with the love of man is folly. God is holy and just which we are not. He is also aware of the true nature of the world. We can never truly know God, only what He chooses to reveal to us.

ALL men deserve His anger and wrath. Why He chooses to have mercy on some we do not know,

And you are right I am not more worthy none of us are and no he did not fail we did it isn't God's fault that we choose to reject him
You have a low view of God.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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No the 'in him' part means God chose those who were 'in' Jesus Christ, who were already saved, for his purposes, he did not choose people to be saved.


He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1.4)


Nothing in Scripture that you can quote will show that he chose people to be saved
He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (2 Tim 1.9)





 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
Again I ask those who believe we are elected

(assuming you have discernment of spirits, you should be able to tell me this:)

Am I destined for heaven of hell?


Because if I am destined for hell DESPITE my faith, no matter how good or evil I am, then

- The bible lies (WHOSOEVER believes ... ALL who call upon the name)
- There is no point in me remaining a Christian , I can just as well turn evil and make sure I TRULY deserve hell
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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For someone to change their mind, they had to learn something to the contrart that caused them to change their mind. Does God learn anything?
Allow Scripture to answer that question. Did God change His mind about destroying Nineveh in forty days?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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So, you are doubling down. First, God is not immutable and now He is not omniscience.


Tell me...when God told Abraham "Now I know you will not hold anything from Me," Did He not know beforehand what Abraham would do?
There's the problem...using fancy words to define God instead of allowing Scripture to define God. Let Scripture define who God is and go with that. Man defines God and then puts God into our definition of who He must be to be God in our finite minds.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,481
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So, you are doubling down. First, God is not immutable and now He is not omniscience.


Tell me...when God told Abraham "Now I know you will not hold anything from Me," Did He not know beforehand what Abraham would do?
Genesis 22:12, And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Now I now...seeing.

God is perfect in knowledge. But what does that mean? Allow the Bible to define. All knowledge that can be known, God knows it. But are all future decisions knowledge? God has declared certain things to happen in Scripture that He will not repent, mainly His purposes and plans for Israel. From the foundation of the world, God had a purpose and plan to become man, die on a cross for sins, and whosoever would believe in Him would be saved. That group who believed on Him would receive the adoption and be conformed to the image of His Son, holy and blameless.

The question is, has God limited His knowledge when concerning the decisions of man when faced with His word? I say He has because it's in Scripture. It actually makes God more powerful and great, to know that my crying out to Him can change the course of history for me. Wow! What a God we serve!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,481
3,497
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Okay so you dismissed the fact that he chose us to be in him. The 'in him' part you highlighted is Gods purpose. In other words for what purpose did he choose us? The answer is to be in Christ. Christ is our purpose and we are the object of that purpose.

God chose us in Him for what? To get saved? No. He chose those in him to be conformed to the image of His Son. That's the adoption, the redemption of our body. That's a future thing. It hadn't happened yet.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Allow Scripture to answer that question. Did God change His mind about destroying Nineveh in forty days?
Did God "change" His Mind? Jonah appears to think He didn't.
[h=3]Jonah’s Anger and God’s Kindness[/h][FONT=&quot]4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live!”[/FONT]

The Assyrians were horrible people that God used to destroy the Northern Kingdom. Commiting savagery on men, women and children. Kind of like asking one of us to go to ISIS after they destroyed America, giving them God's decree of destruction, KNOWING that God would relent because they would repent. We probably wouldn't want to go. It appears Jonah ran away because he KNEW God would relent.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,481
3,497
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Did God "change" His Mind? Jonah appears to think He didn't.
Jonah’s Anger and God’s Kindness

4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. 2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live!”

The Assyrians were horrible people that God used to destroy the Northern Kingdom. Commiting savagery on men, women and children. Kind of like asking one of us to go to ISIS after they destroyed America, giving them God's decree of destruction, KNOWING that God would relent because they would repent. We probably wouldn't want to go. It appears Jonah ran away because he KNEW God would relent.
Jonah knew that God is a God of mercy and there was a chance that Nineveh would believe the message of destruction and in turn repent and cry out to God and in turn God would spare them. Jonah didn't want to take that chance, so he headed the other way. If Jonah goes the other way, then God will destroy Nineveh in forty days.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I view the word Saint and Elect the following way....

Saint is descriptive of who we are in Christ as holy....
Elect is descriptive of who we are in Christ as chosen.....

The whole concept is simple.....The Heavenly Father, before the casting down of the world, determined that ALL who would come to Him dia the Son would be received and CHOSEN (elected) in Christ.....

This is not to say that God said such and such would be saved and they can do nothing about it and or such and such will be destined for hell.....Yes, God made the wicked for the day of destruction, but......

Salvation is open to all men<--The grace of God that brings salvation has shined down upon ALL MEN
God has dealt to every man a measure of faith<---the ability to believe
Jesus died for ALL men and NAILED sin to his cross
Day unto day and night unto night speaks and blares loudly
The invisible testifies

MANY are called.....but few CHOSEN.........to be elected (chosen) in Christ one MUST of necessity come by the one and only way found in the bible.....dia FAITH.....end of story..

It pleased God by the FOOLISHNESS of PREACHING to SAVE them that BELIEVE!

Every other (perceived door) is the way of thieves and robbers.....end of story!
 
Apr 30, 2016
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So where did this desire to learn about Gd come from when your in rebellion against him, enemys with him and are a lover of darkness? Thats funny you say we have to want to be saved because calvinists agree.... but where does the want come from given you and i both hate him?
You sure are assuming a lot about me without even knowing me.
Just like you assume a lot about God.
Perhaps YOU are in rebellion against Him,
But I AM NOT.

23.
Yeah. You know it all by now.
So you feel special because God chose YOU?

Please explain to me John 3:16.
The best verse in all the bible and can be used for practically ANY discussion...

Fran
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Does the bible teach that men are saved by putting their faith in Christ?
Technically men are saved by grace. Grace is received through faith. Faith that is produced by hearing the word of God and the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of the word of God by convicting of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

If that is what you asked then yes.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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Right. Jesus lied in John 3, so you can be right.

And then Paul lied in Romans 8 & 9, so you can be right.

Easy as that. Gotcha.
Your double mindedness is amazing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Apr 30, 2016
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You dont?


As far as He is great, so without any end.
God has power over all creation.
Does that mean He didn't give us free will?
Do you believe you're a puppet in God's hands?

If He didn't give us free will, how could He send anyone to hell?
How could a JUST God, who gives US no choice to be saved, then go ahead and send those to hell that He did not choose.

Does this sound like the JUST God of the bible to you?

Fran
 
Apr 30, 2016
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Technically men are saved by grace. Grace is received through faith. Faith that is produced by hearing the word of God and the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of the word of God by convicting of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

If that is what you asked then yes.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
How are we saved by grace if grace falls on everyone?
Are we all saved??

See Romans 3:22 We are saved by FAITH in Christ.
Jeremiah 31:2-3
Romans 4:15-17

Mathew 5:45 tells us that evil falls on all, the sun rises for all.
It is God's grace which keeps us alive and causes all to function.
God's grace in not merited and falls on believers and unbelievers.
How else could an unbeliever ever come to God?

Fran
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
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Again I ask those who believe we are elected

(assuming you have discernment of spirits, you should be able to tell me this:)

Am I destined for heaven of hell?


Because if I am destined for hell DESPITE my faith, no matter how good or evil I am, then

- The bible lies (WHOSOEVER believes ... ALL who call upon the name)
- There is no point in me remaining a Christian , I can just as well turn evil and make sure I TRULY deserve hell
We can't tell what is in someones heart. Even if we could we are not supposed to point it out, that is Gods Job to show you.

As a Christian you can't turn evil. You are under Grace. So even if you just do whatever you think will make God mad, He won't get mad. Just disappointed.

Remember when you were young your parents would get mad. But then when you turned 16-19 they weren't mad anymore, just disappointed. Its because they knew that you knew what is right and wrong. And they knew that you have to be you.

You have to be you. Your trials and experiences are for you. None of us can interpret what God is doing in your life. Least of all, me.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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We can't tell what is in someones heart. Even if we could we are not supposed to point it out, that is Gods Job to show you.

As a Christian you can't turn evil. You are under Grace. So even if you just do whatever you think will make God mad, He won't get mad. Just disappointed.

Remember when you were young your parents would get mad. But then when you turned 16-19 they weren't mad anymore, just disappointed. Its because they knew that you knew what is right and wrong. And they knew that you have to be you.

You have to be you. Your trials and experiences are for you. None of us can interpret what God is doing in your life. Least of all, me.
Kilden has made important points.
This is not a reply to what he put forth.

I also would like a reply.

Fran
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
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Kilden has made important points.
This is not a reply to what he put forth.

I also would like a reply.

Fran
WWJD_Kilden is a female.

What would you like a reply to? Specifically.