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Thread: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

  1. #221
    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post

    He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1.4)
    Hew has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (2 Tim 1.9)
    repeating scripture with the same old mindset will not help you. If you don't understand what I was saying then just ask, but I've already explained what the scripture says.
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    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    How are we saved by grace if grace falls on everyone?
    Are we all saved??

    See Romans 3:22 We are saved by FAITH in Christ.
    Jeremiah 31:2-3
    Romans 4:15-17

    Mathew 5:45 tells us that evil falls on all, the sun rises for all.
    It is God's grace which keeps us alive and causes all to function.
    God's grace in not merited and falls on believers and unbelievers.
    How else could an unbeliever ever come to God?

    Fran
    Gods mercy is what withholds His wrath. Every man deserves to die but God is slow to anger and great in mercy that He gives us space to repent and receive His Son Jesus Christ as our Savior.

    Grace is God giving to us the righteousness of Christ and placing our sin on Jesus on the cross.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Senior Member Blain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Well i can see this debate is still going strong and I wanted to come and to say that I will not be taking part of this debate for a while because I am going to be doing an in depth study on this subject before I begin to into it again. There seem to be to many holes and to much contradiction on both sides that both seem to hold some truth to them yet there is still opposition in both views. Hopefully in my studies I can find the (missing link) a little humor there lol
    My life's testimony seems to have helped many people so I am going to put it here http://christianchat.com/testimonies...-new-post.html

    When the hearts of God and a child of his make that special intimate connection a wondrous power is born and a flame ignites that can never be put out

    Jesus knew more than anyone of us-Love hurts

    The strongest among you may not wear a crown

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Allow Scripture to answer that question. Did God change His mind about destroying Nineveh in forty days?


    God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?[Numbers 23:19]

    The Bible is full of figurative/anthropomorphic language.
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    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    There's the problem...using fancy words to define God instead of allowing Scripture to define God. Let Scripture define who God is and go with that. Man defines God and then puts God into our definition of who He must be to be God in our finite minds.
    Psalm 57:1 David said he would take refuge under God's wing. I guess He is covered with feathers?

    In Revelation 12, I guess Satan is a red dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns?

    Anthropomorphic language.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

  6. #226
    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    There's the problem...using fancy words to define God instead of allowing Scripture to define God. Let Scripture define who God is and go with that. Man defines God and then puts God into our definition of who He must be to be God in our finite minds.
    They are not fancy words, they are common to the vernacular of grammatical language. That is why biblical hermeneutics is such an important part of studying the Bible.
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    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    U
    In John chapter 7, Jesus made a famous claim: I AM the bread of Heaven.
    When the Jews ( who had witnessed Him miraculously multiply 5 loaves bread and 2 fish to feed a multitude) objected, Jesus reacted to their unbelief by saying 'Those the Father gives me WILL come.'
    This phrase is the best tidings for those in frontier missions: the Saviour rests not on persuasion of the gospel message or the eagerness of the audience, but on the ultimate power of God to bring them.
    Therefore, its not 'they might come', or 'they probably will come' its that they WILL come.

    Praise be to the God and The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Chhrist. For He CHOSE US before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. (EPHESIANS 1:3,4)
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    Senior Member JustWhoIAm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Mash View Post
    U
    In John chapter 7, Jesus made a famous claim: I AM the bread of Heaven.
    When the Jews ( who had witnessed Him miraculously multiply 5 loaves bread and 2 fish to feed a multitude) objected, Jesus reacted to their unbelief by saying 'Those the Father gives me WILL come.'
    This phrase is the best tidings for those in frontier missions: the Saviour rests not on persuasion of the gospel message or the eagerness of the audience, but on the ultimate power of God to bring them.
    Therefore, its not 'they might come', or 'they probably will come' its that they WILL come.

    Praise be to the God and The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Chhrist. For He CHOSE US before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. (EPHESIANS 1:3,4)
    Paul was a screwup even though he followed the "law" to a T. He was a serious murderer. He still had sin issues even after his conversion, but he kept his faith and kept striving to be a better servant even though he knew he couldn't achieve perfection.

    It did not matter, he had been chosen beforehand. It wasn't his strength that kept him going, it was Christ in him.

    “The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come! “So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them.

    “The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. And he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests.

    “But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

    I think he knew beforehand who would rely on him in truth and who wouldn't, and I think he knew who best to redeem for the purposes of the kingdom.

    Just my 2c.
    Mommy, where's fluffy?

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    They are not fancy words, they are common to the vernacular of grammatical language. That is why biblical hermeneutics is such an important part of studying the Bible.
    So take the Bible literally only if it doesn't mess with your theology. When it goes against your theology, explain it away with hermeneutics. So when God changed His mind about wanting to destroy the nation of Israel, changing His mind on Hezekiah, changing His mind on Nineveh, etc...it's all a play on words. And what are we supposed to learn on this play on words?

    There are parts of Scripture that says God will not repent or change His mind, and in every case, it is talking about the long terms plans for the nation of Israel. Study it for yourself. God is not changing His mind on Israel.

  10. #230
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    They are not fancy words, they are common to the vernacular of grammatical language. That is why biblical hermeneutics is such an important part of studying the Bible.
    Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

    9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
    10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

    Sorry my friend, this is not a play on words.

    King David knew full well that God has all authority to change His mind.

    2 Samuel 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

    Only if David Knew God was using fancy hermeneutics...he could have stopped praying and fasting for his child because prayer doesn't do any good.

  11. #231
    Senior Member FranC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Gods mercy is what withholds His wrath. Every man deserves to die but God is slow to anger and great in mercy that He gives us space to repent and receive His Son Jesus Christ as our Savior.

    Grace is God giving to us the righteousness of Christ and placing our sin on Jesus on the cross.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    Hi Roger,
    I'm afraid you didn't get my point.

    I'm sure everyone here knows what God's grace is.
    But YOU said it's God's grace that saves us, not faith.

    The reason I have a problem with your concept is the following:
    Christians have Always been taught that salvation comes from FAITH in Christ.

    Everyone on earth receives the grace of God. Even atheists.
    His grace is what causes a person to heal when sick.
    It certainly isn't satan doing that good deed!

    WHERE did the idea come from that we re saved by God's grace??
    Everything on earth is done through God's grace; however, salvation
    comes THROUGH FAITH in Jesus our Savior.

    Ephesian 2:8
    "For By GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH..."
    NASB

    It is certainly God's goodness that ALLOWS us to be saved, but THROUGH FAITH in Jesus.

    No Faith --- No salvation


    Fran
    Walk till you Run
    And don't look back
    For HERE...I AM

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    Hi Roger,
    I'm afraid you didn't get my point.

    I'm sure everyone here knows what God's grace is.
    But YOU said it's God's grace that saves us, not faith.

    The reason I have a problem with your concept is the following:
    Christians have Always been taught that salvation comes from FAITH in Christ.

    Everyone on earth receives the grace of God. Even atheists.
    His grace is what causes a person to heal when sick.
    It certainly isn't satan doing that good deed!

    WHERE did the idea come from that we re saved by God's grace??
    Everything on earth is done through God's grace; however, salvation
    comes THROUGH FAITH in Jesus our Savior.

    Ephesian 2:8
    "For By GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH..."
    NASB

    It is certainly God's goodness that ALLOWS us to be saved, but THROUGH FAITH in Jesus.

    No Faith --- No salvation


    Fran
    John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

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  13. #233
    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    So take the Bible literally only if it doesn't mess with your theology. When it goes against your theology, explain it away with hermeneutics. So when God changed His mind about wanting to destroy the nation of Israel, changing His mind on Hezekiah, changing His mind on Nineveh, etc...it's all a play on words. And what are we supposed to learn on this play on words?
    There are parts of Scripture that says God will not repent or change His mind, and in every case, it is talking about the long terms plans for the nation of Israel. Study it for yourself. God is not changing His mind on Israel.
    If you were serious about taking the Bible literally then by now you would have cut off one of your hands or plucked out one of your eyes. Have you done that yet?
    God is immutable and impassable and the fact that you don't understand that is your problem not anybody else's.
    Bible also doesn't say anything about God's omniscience or omnipotence or omnipresence, but you believe those are his attributes don't you? I'm going to guess you didn't get a very high grade in English and Grammar did you?
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    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    If you were serious about taking the Bible literally then by now you would have cut off one of your hands or plucked out one of your eyes. Have you done that yet?
    God is immutable and impassable and the fact that you don't understand that is your problem not anybody else's.
    Bible also doesn't say anything about God's omniscience or omnipotence or omnipresence, but you believe those are his attributes don't you? I'm going to guess you didn't get a very high grade in English and Grammar did you?
    Let's use Scripture, not insults. Thanks.

    I take the Bible literally. The passage about cutting off your hands...that is literally what you should do in the kingdom of heaven if your hands are causing you to sin. Matthew 5-6 are Jewish in nature concerning the kingdom of heaven, the Lord's literal kingdom on earth when He rules with a rod of iron over the nations. The sermon on the mount is the rule of living under that kingdom on earth.

    I think it's wrong for man to define God and put God into our definitions. Allow Scripture to define God. Is God perfect in knowledge? Yes. But why do we consider all future decisions knowledge? What saith the Scriptures?

  15. #235
    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

    9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
    10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

    Sorry my friend, this is not a play on words.

    King David knew full well that God has all authority to change His mind.

    2 Samuel 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

    Only if David Knew God was using fancy hermeneutics...he could have stopped praying and fasting for his child because prayer doesn't do any good.
    You obviously don't understand what Biblical hermeneutics is and you also don't understand that the immutability of God means he decided before the beginning of time what he would do and all his actions were predetermined. The fact is that God can be merciful when man repents is not changing his mind, it's responding to the person's positive actions and their repentance.
    Romans 10:9-11 is the template for salvation but just because one does not do so today because of unbelief, does not mean that one cannot do so a day from now or a week from now or a year from now. That is not God changing his mind that is us changing our mind. The moment we repent and confess is the moment we are saved.
    The fact that you take words from men that have doubts about God and form them into a doctrine is quite incredulous.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...17&version=NIV
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    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    You obviously don't understand what Biblical hermeneutics is and you also don't understand that the immutability of God means he decided before the beginning of time what he would do and all his actions were predetermined. The fact is that God can be merciful when man repents is not changing his mind, it's responding to the person's positive actions and their repentance.
    Romans 10:9-11 is the template for salvation but just because one does not do so today because of unbelief, does not mean that one cannot do so a day from now or a week from now or a year from now. That is not God changing his mind that is us changing our mind. The moment we repent and confess is the moment we are saved.
    The fact that you take words from men that have doubts about God and form them into a doctrine is quite incredulous.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...17&version=NIV
    There are parts of Scripture that says God will not repent or change His mind, and in every case, it is talking about the long terms plans for the nation of Israel. Study it for yourself. God is not changing His mind on Israel.

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    You obviously don't understand what Biblical hermeneutics is and you also don't understand that the immutability of God means he decided before the beginning of time what he would do and all his actions were predetermined.
    Can you post Scripture stating this?

  18. #238
    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    There are parts of Scripture that says God will not repent or change His mind, and in every case, it is talking about the long terms plans for the nation of Israel. Study it for yourself. God is not changing His mind on Israel.
    Apparently you didn't understand my post which I thought was fairly clear? God doesn't change his mind on ANYTHING.
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    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Can you post Scripture stating this?
    I did just that in this post but apparently again you can't read, or refuse to?
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    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    Apparently you didn't understand my post which I thought was fairly clear? God doesn't change his mind on ANYTHING.
    Says you or Scripture? That Scripture you posted has to do with the long term plans of Israel. Read the context. In all passages concerning "God will not repent", they all have to do with Israel.

    Here's a look into God's heart:

    Jeremiah 18
    7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
    8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
    9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
    10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

    If...then...if...then

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