Unconditional Election or Conditional Election
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Gods mercy is what withholds His wrath. Every man deserves to die but God is slow to anger and great in mercy that He gives us space to repent and receive His Son Jesus Christ as our Savior.
Grace is God giving to us the righteousness of Christ and placing our sin on Jesus on the cross.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Grace is God giving to us the righteousness of Christ and placing our sin on Jesus on the cross.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Well i can see this debate is still going strong and I wanted to come and to say that I will not be taking part of this debate for a while because I am going to be doing an in depth study on this subject before I begin to into it again. There seem to be to many holes and to much contradiction on both sides that both seem to hold some truth to them yet there is still opposition in both views. Hopefully in my studies I can find the (missing link) a little humor there lol
U
In John chapter 7, Jesus made a famous claim: I AM the bread of Heaven.
When the Jews ( who had witnessed Him miraculously multiply 5 loaves bread and 2 fish to feed a multitude) objected, Jesus reacted to their unbelief by saying 'Those the Father gives me WILL come.'
This phrase is the best tidings for those in frontier missions: the Saviour rests not on persuasion of the gospel message or the eagerness of the audience, but on the ultimate power of God to bring them.
Therefore, its not 'they might come', or 'they probably will come' its that they WILL come.
Praise be to the God and The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Chhrist. For He CHOSE US before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. (EPHESIANS 1:3,4)
In John chapter 7, Jesus made a famous claim: I AM the bread of Heaven.
When the Jews ( who had witnessed Him miraculously multiply 5 loaves bread and 2 fish to feed a multitude) objected, Jesus reacted to their unbelief by saying 'Those the Father gives me WILL come.'
This phrase is the best tidings for those in frontier missions: the Saviour rests not on persuasion of the gospel message or the eagerness of the audience, but on the ultimate power of God to bring them.
Therefore, its not 'they might come', or 'they probably will come' its that they WILL come.
Praise be to the God and The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Chhrist. For He CHOSE US before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. (EPHESIANS 1:3,4)
J
Paul was a screwup even though he followed the "law" to a T. He was a serious murderer. He still had sin issues even after his conversion, but he kept his faith and kept striving to be a better servant even though he knew he couldn't achieve perfection.
It did not matter, he had been chosen beforehand. It wasn't his strength that kept him going, it was Christ in him.
“The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come! “So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them.
“The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. And he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
I think he knew beforehand who would rely on him in truth and who wouldn't, and I think he knew who best to redeem for the purposes of the kingdom.
Just my 2c.
It did not matter, he had been chosen beforehand. It wasn't his strength that kept him going, it was Christ in him.
“The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come! “So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them.
“The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. And he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests.
“But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
I think he knew beforehand who would rely on him in truth and who wouldn't, and I think he knew who best to redeem for the purposes of the kingdom.
Just my 2c.
So take the Bible literally only if it doesn't mess with your theology. When it goes against your theology, explain it away with hermeneutics. So when God changed His mind about wanting to destroy the nation of Israel, changing His mind on Hezekiah, changing His mind on Nineveh, etc...it's all a play on words. And what are we supposed to learn on this play on words?
There are parts of Scripture that says God will not repent or change His mind, and in every case, it is talking about the long terms plans for the nation of Israel. Study it for yourself. God is not changing His mind on Israel.
There are parts of Scripture that says God will not repent or change His mind, and in every case, it is talking about the long terms plans for the nation of Israel. Study it for yourself. God is not changing His mind on Israel.
Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Sorry my friend, this is not a play on words.
King David knew full well that God has all authority to change His mind.
2 Samuel 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
Only if David Knew God was using fancy hermeneutics...he could have stopped praying and fasting for his child because prayer doesn't do any good.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Sorry my friend, this is not a play on words.
King David knew full well that God has all authority to change His mind.
2 Samuel 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
Only if David Knew God was using fancy hermeneutics...he could have stopped praying and fasting for his child because prayer doesn't do any good.
Hi Roger,
I'm afraid you didn't get my point.
I'm sure everyone here knows what God's grace is.
But YOU said it's God's grace that saves us, not faith.
The reason I have a problem with your concept is the following:
Christians have Always been taught that salvation comes from FAITH in Christ.
Everyone on earth receives the grace of God. Even atheists.
His grace is what causes a person to heal when sick.
It certainly isn't satan doing that good deed!
WHERE did the idea come from that we re saved by God's grace??
Everything on earth is done through God's grace; however, salvation
comes THROUGH FAITH in Jesus our Savior.
Ephesian 2:8
"For By GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH..."
NASB
It is certainly God's goodness that ALLOWS us to be saved, but THROUGH FAITH in Jesus.
No Faith --- No salvation
Fran
I'm afraid you didn't get my point.
I'm sure everyone here knows what God's grace is.
But YOU said it's God's grace that saves us, not faith.
The reason I have a problem with your concept is the following:
Christians have Always been taught that salvation comes from FAITH in Christ.
Everyone on earth receives the grace of God. Even atheists.
His grace is what causes a person to heal when sick.
It certainly isn't satan doing that good deed!
WHERE did the idea come from that we re saved by God's grace??
Everything on earth is done through God's grace; however, salvation
comes THROUGH FAITH in Jesus our Savior.
Ephesian 2:8
"For By GRACE you have been saved THROUGH FAITH..."
NASB
It is certainly God's goodness that ALLOWS us to be saved, but THROUGH FAITH in Jesus.
No Faith --- No salvation
Fran
S
If you were serious about taking the Bible literally then by now you would have cut off one of your hands or plucked out one of your eyes. Have you done that yet?
God is immutable and impassable and the fact that you don't understand that is your problem not anybody else's.
Bible also doesn't say anything about God's omniscience or omnipotence or omnipresence, but you believe those are his attributes don't you? I'm going to guess you didn't get a very high grade in English and Grammar did you?
God is immutable and impassable and the fact that you don't understand that is your problem not anybody else's.
Bible also doesn't say anything about God's omniscience or omnipotence or omnipresence, but you believe those are his attributes don't you? I'm going to guess you didn't get a very high grade in English and Grammar did you?
Let's use Scripture, not insults. Thanks.
I take the Bible literally. The passage about cutting off your hands...that is literally what you should do in the kingdom of heaven if your hands are causing you to sin. Matthew 5-6 are Jewish in nature concerning the kingdom of heaven, the Lord's literal kingdom on earth when He rules with a rod of iron over the nations. The sermon on the mount is the rule of living under that kingdom on earth.
I think it's wrong for man to define God and put God into our definitions. Allow Scripture to define God. Is God perfect in knowledge? Yes. But why do we consider all future decisions knowledge? What saith the Scriptures?
I take the Bible literally. The passage about cutting off your hands...that is literally what you should do in the kingdom of heaven if your hands are causing you to sin. Matthew 5-6 are Jewish in nature concerning the kingdom of heaven, the Lord's literal kingdom on earth when He rules with a rod of iron over the nations. The sermon on the mount is the rule of living under that kingdom on earth.
I think it's wrong for man to define God and put God into our definitions. Allow Scripture to define God. Is God perfect in knowledge? Yes. But why do we consider all future decisions knowledge? What saith the Scriptures?
S
You obviously don't understand what Biblical hermeneutics is and you also don't understand that the immutability of God means he decided before the beginning of time what he would do and all his actions were predetermined. The fact is that God can be merciful when man repents is not changing his mind, it's responding to the person's positive actions and their repentance.
Romans 10:9-11 is the template for salvation but just because one does not do so today because of unbelief, does not mean that one cannot do so a day from now or a week from now or a year from now. That is not God changing his mind that is us changing our mind. The moment we repent and confess is the moment we are saved.
The fact that you take words from men that have doubts about God and form them into a doctrine is quite incredulous.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+23:19,Hebrews+13:8,James+1:17&version=NIV
Romans 10:9-11 is the template for salvation but just because one does not do so today because of unbelief, does not mean that one cannot do so a day from now or a week from now or a year from now. That is not God changing his mind that is us changing our mind. The moment we repent and confess is the moment we are saved.
The fact that you take words from men that have doubts about God and form them into a doctrine is quite incredulous.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+23:19,Hebrews+13:8,James+1:17&version=NIV
Says you or Scripture? That Scripture you posted has to do with the long term plans of Israel. Read the context. In all passages concerning "God will not repent", they all have to do with Israel.
Here's a look into God's heart:
Jeremiah 18
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
If...then...if...then
Here's a look into God's heart:
Jeremiah 18
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
If...then...if...then