Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

[John146]

I did just that in this post but apparently again you can't read, or refuse to?

God's message to Nineveh, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Was Nineveh overthrown? Did God lie? Of course not...God changed His mind. Is it possible for God to limit His knowledge?

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Is this true or is it another play on words?

 

[StanJ]

Says you or Scripture? That Scripture you posted has to do with the long term plans of Israel. Read the context. In all passages concerning "God will not repent", they all have to do with Israel.
Here's a look into God's heart:
Jeremiah 18
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
If...then...if...then

I can only assume you just don't understand the vernacular used in the King James version maybe you should try a Modern English version?

Jer 18
[FONT=&quot]7 There are times, Jeremiah, when I threaten to uproot, tear down, and destroy a nation or kingdom. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 But if that nation I threatened stops doing wrong, I will cancel the destruction I intended to do to it. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 And there are times when I promise to build up and establish a nation or kingdom. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 But if that nation does what displeases me and does not obey me, then I will cancel the good I promised to do to it.

[/FONT]God is immutable, despite the conditions imposes on mankind. That obviously is the right of God to do. If you continue to ignore what the scripture clearly says about his immutability by deflecting to other scriptures you think questions it then you're truly not willing to believe God's word which does not contradict itself.

 

[StanJ]

God's message to Nineveh, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." Was Nineveh overthrown? Did God lie? Of course not...God changed His mind. Is it possible for God to limit His knowledge?
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Is this true or is it another play on words?

Deal with what you were given and stop trying to deflect. Are the verses I quoted you true or not?

 

[John146]

Deal with what you were given and stop trying to deflect. Are the verses I quoted you true or not?

Sorry again, God didn't threaten Nineveh. He pronounced destruction upon them. I'd suggest you run from your false versions and read THE word of God. Study THE word of God. Believe THE word of God.

 

[StanJ]

Let's use Scripture, not insults. Thanks.

I take the Bible literally. The passage about cutting off your hands...that is literally what you should do in the kingdom of heaven if your hands are causing you to sin. Matthew 5-6 are Jewish in nature concerning the kingdom of heaven, the Lord's literal kingdom on earth when He rules with a rod of iron over the nations. The sermon on the mount is the rule of living under that kingdom on earth.

I think it's wrong for man to define God and put God into our definitions. Allow Scripture to define God. Is God perfect in knowledge? Yes. But why do we consider all future decisions knowledge? What saith the Scriptures?

Insults are not framed as questions, which you never answer I've noticed. Jesus was not being literal, he was saying IF your hands or eyes make you sin cut them off. The point is that it's not your hands or your eyes that make you sin, it's your heart but apparently you don't understand the style of writing that is employed here? Jesus was making a point but apparently neither you or the Pharisees got? You need to learn what hyperbolic language is, then re-read your Bible.

The Bible defines God and it's up to us to understand the definitions that the Bible tells us. That's why Paul wrote what he did in
2 Timothy 2:15. the sad reality is that the average American reads at a grade 1 or 2 level and it's one of the main reasons why so many people don't understand the Bible and need a pastor to explain it to them. Why would you even bother reading the King James version when you can't understand the normal American vernacular?

 

[StanJ]

Sorry again, God didn't threaten Nineveh. He pronounced destruction upon them. I'd suggest you run from your false versions and read THE word of God. Study THE word of God. Believe THE word of God.

If you can't understand the KJV then why do you read it. What it says in common American vernacular is;

[FONT=&quot]“Go immediately to [/FONT]Nineveh, that large capital city, and announce judgment against its people because their wickedness has come to my attention.”

Do you really believe that God didn't know about Nineveh until it came to his attention?

 

[nowyouseem033]

Deal with what you were given and stop trying to deflect. Are the verses I quoted you true or not?

Thats what i would like from you in regards to the scriptures that teach that we are Gods elect and chosen:

2 Thessolonians 2:13-14 "...because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.."
2 Timothy 2:10 "For this reason i endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen..."
Colossions 3:12 "So as those who have been chosen of God.."

Who could "those" people be?

Not to mention ephesians 1 which you seem to miss the object of Gods election in the very scripture it says.

Your exegesis of ephesians 1 is assumptions not exegesis. And assumptions bring ignorance to the word 'us' in the text itself?

 

[StanJ]

Thats what i would like from you in regards to the scriptures that teach that we are Gods elect and chosen:

2 Thessolonians 2:13-14 "...because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.."
2 Timothy 2:10 "For this reason i endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen..."
Colossions 3:12 "So as those who have been chosen of God.."

Who could "those" people be?

Not to mention ephesians 1 which you seem to miss the object of Gods election in the very scripture it says.

Your exegesis of ephesians 1 is assumptions not exegesis. And assumptions bring ignorance to the word 'us' in the text itself?

The scripture does not teach that we are God's elect and chosen for salvation, the scripture teaches that we are his elect after we are saved..
2 Thess 2:13-14
[FONT=&quot]But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He called you to this through our gospel,that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[/FONT]2 Tim 2:10 is about enduring to the end to receive the reward of salvation. The elect don't get saved twice.
Col 3:12 does it say chosen in the Greek it says ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) which is 'elect'.

You really need to learn and understand your Bible and stop reading it from your bias.

 

[nowyouseem033]

The scripture does not teach that we are God's elect and chosen for salvation, the scripture teaches that we are his elect after we are saved..
2 Thess 2:13-14
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.He called you to this through our gospel,that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Tim 2:10 is about enduring to the end to receive the reward of salvation. The elect don't get saved twice.
Col 3:12 does it say chosen in the Greek it says ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) which is 'elect'.

You really need to learn and understand your Bible and stop reading it from your bias.

Hence my original question if you read at the beginning of the post.
Is election rooted in our response or rooted in the act of God? Not to mention you just distorted 2 thessolonians which explicitly says "you were chosen for salvation".... so yes election is linked to salvation or what is it linked to then???? Your accusations are unwarranted as well otherwise i might have to copy and paste the post from the other thread. I think you know the one. So im glad you accept election of a people. I do too... But what is election grounded and rooted in? Is it people? or is it God and his plan? I know what the Greek is in timothy and I know persevering is apart of the christian faith so i dont need those answers. But can you hold or go into any depth of the intention and origin of election?

 

[fredoheaven]

Thats what i would like from you in regards to the scriptures that teach that we are Gods elect and chosen:

2 Thessolonians 2:13-14 "...because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.."
2 Timothy 2:10 "For this reason i endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen..."
Colossions 3:12 "So as those who have been chosen of God.."

Who could "those" people be?

Not to mention ephesians 1 which you seem to miss the object of Gods election in the very scripture it says.

Your exegesis of ephesians 1 is assumptions not exegesis. And assumptions bring ignorance to the word 'us' in the text
itself?

2 Thessalonian 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2 Thessalonian 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

God’s choosing is for believers’ service not salvation. The preposition “to” is basically misunderstood. Although the gk.”eis” means ‘for’ in some instances or as in the other context 2Thes. 2 has been written for all those who were saved. It was the calling of the gospel that saved believing sinners until he was chosen to obtaining the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus this has something to do with service more than salvation.

2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
2 Timothy 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The elects here were the Israelites. The reference of the seed of David will always point to the Hebrew, Jew or the Israelites.

Collosians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering
Collosians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

This is in reference to the believers as holy and beloved to put on the bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering, forbearance, forgiveness and love in action.

So to answer the question: Who could "those" people be?


1. Thessalonicans’ believers but may applied as well to believers
2. The Jewish people
3. Any believers in Christ.

 

[John146]

If you can't understand the KJV then why do you read it. What it says in common American vernacular is;

“Go immediately to Nineveh, that large capital city, and announce judgment against its people because their wickedness has come to my attention.”

Do you really believe that God didn't know about Nineveh until it came to his attention?

Ok, I'll go with what you suppose and change the word of God...taking your above statement, God announced judgment against the people of Nineveh. Was God lying? Did God have every intention of destroying Nineveh? And yet, God did not destroy them. Why? Did His mind change? You still have failed to answer this. Instead, you turn to sources outside the Bible to explain it away. Don't you know that's where false religions rise? Using your philosophy, I can make the Bible says anything I want it to say.

 

[John146]

Thats what i would like from you in regards to the scriptures that teach that we are Gods elect and chosen:

2 Thessolonians 2:13-14 "...because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.."
2 Timothy 2:10 "For this reason i endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen..."
Colossions 3:12 "So as those who have been chosen of God.."

Who could "those" people be?

Not to mention ephesians 1 which you seem to miss the object of Gods election in the very scripture it says.

Your exegesis of ephesians 1 is assumptions not exegesis. And assumptions bring ignorance to the word 'us' in the text itself?

2 Timothy 2
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds;(from his brethren the Jews) but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory(the elect here is the Jews, the nation of Israel).

Elect merely means chosen. Israel was chosen by God to bring forth the seed. They were God's elect.

 

[Grandpa]

2 Timothy 2
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds;(from his brethren the Jews) but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory(the elect here is the Jews, the nation of Israel).

Elect merely means chosen. Israel was chosen by God to bring forth the seed. They were God's elect.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
[FONT=&quot]24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I suppose those that God gives repentance to are also His Elect, Chosen.[/FONT]

 

[nowyouseem033]

2 Timothy 2
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds;(from his brethren the Jews) but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory(the elect here is the Jews, the nation of Israel).

Elect merely means chosen. Israel was chosen by God to bring forth the seed. They were God's elect.

Well John146 it looks like almost every single commentator of 2 Timothy 2 disagrees with you buddy. Let me list them for you:

-Matthew Henry
-Elliott
-Barnes
-Matthew Poole
-and Meyer goes so far to say this in no way speaks of Christ but of the church and refutes your direct comments.

Sorry John but your simply wrong and in disagreement to previous scholars who arent even calvinists i might add. I like how you added to the word of God your comments of reference to Jews when the text itself doesnt even say anything about Jews at all. Dangerous territory if you keep doing that....
In fact show me in the whole book of 2 Timothy where it explicitly mentions Jews or Israelites?

 

[John146]

Well John146 it looks like almost every single commentator of 2 Timothy 2 disagrees with you buddy. Let me list them for you:

-Matthew Henry
-Elliott
-Barnes
-Matthew Poole
-and Meyer goes so far to say this in no way speaks of Christ but of the church and refutes your direct comments.

Sorry John but your simply wrong and in disagreement to previous scholars who arent even calvinists i might add. I like how you added to the word of God your comments of reference to Jews when the text itself doesnt even say anything about Jews at all. Dangerous territory if you keep doing that....
In fact show me in the whole book of 2 Timothy where it explicitly mentions Jews or Israelites?

Why would Paul endure so much trouble and physical persecution for the elect if God already chose them before the foundation of the world? "Hey Paul, it doesn't matter if you reach them with the gospel or not, they're going to get saved anyway. God elected them."

Let me ask you, all the missionaries who brave persecution, disease and death to family members, living poor lives without food many times for the sake of the gospel...all these missionaries are risking their lives for people who are already elect by God. Does that make sense to you? And please spare me the "God's ways are not our ways" excuse.

And by the way, let God be true and every man a liar. I don't care about what commentaries may or may not say. What saith the Scriptures?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God chose based on one reason and one reason only.

His foreknowledge, God knew before time began WHO would accept and who would reject.

As John said, in 1: 12, he gave the RIGHT to become children of God to those who had FAITH in him.

As Paul said in ephesians, He predestined those who HEARD the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation. And then TRUSTED, it was them who he sealed. (eph 1)

if you take CHOICE out of the equation, You have to take LOVE out of the equation. Because you can not LOVE or be LOVED by those who are pre-programmed.

People need to remember, We are limited to Time, God is not. To God, 6000 years ago was like 6 seconds ago.. I know it is hard to fathom, but that is God. We are not God, and are limited,

 

[preacher4truth]

God chose based on one reason and one reason only.

His foreknowledge, God knew before time began WHO would accept and who would reject.

No, sorry, no Scripture backs up your tradition friend. You're also redefining foreknowledge to an unbiblical definition, there is nothing theologically based in your traditionally blurred defining.

You need to take a gander at John 1:13 and put 1:12 in proper context, not out of perspective as you are doing. This truth that it, salvation, is not by willing, or human determination is also supported by Romans 9:11ff, James 1:18, 1 Thess. 1:4; 1 Peter 1:1ff &c.

if you take CHOICE out of the equation, You have to take LOVE out of the equation. Because you can not LOVE or be LOVED by those who are pre-programmed.

This is a total strawman and the passages aforementioned dismantle your decisional salvation gospel. IOW yours is pure sentimentalism and has no theological basis.

Furthermore nothing in Scripture says anything about being 'pre-programmed' that is simply being used as a derogatory commentary on the truth. Predestined is the word to use here. God has determined whom He would save based on nothing they have done whether good or bad; 1 Corinthians 1:26ff. Just setting the story straight, fully aware you will not believe the truth here. The other solemn matter is you're merely practicing Romans 9:20.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]No, sorry, no Scripture backs up your tradition friend. You're also redefining foreknowledge to an unbiblical definition, there is nothing theologically based in your traditionally blurred defining.

You need to take a gander at John 1:13 and put 1:12 in proper context, not out of perspective as you are doing. This truth that it, salvation, is not by willing, or human determination is also supported by Romans 9:11ff, James 1:18, 1 Thess. 1:4; 1 Peter 1:1ff &c.

This is a total strawman and the passages aforementioned dismantle your decisional salvation gospel. IOW yours is pure sentimentalism and has no theological basis.

Furthermore nothing in Scripture says anything about being 'pre-programmed' that is simply being used as a derogatory commentary on the truth. Predestined is the word to use here. God has determined whom He would save based on nothing they have done whether good or bad; 1 Corinthians 1:26ff. Just setting the story straight, fully aware you will not believe the truth here. The other solemn matter is you're merely practicing Romans 9:20.

Call it what you want, That does not matter, But to say we are chosen based on no reason whatsoever, and others will never believe no matter how bad they may want, Because of election is called pre-programming. If you do not like that term, Not sure I can feel sorry for you, I do not like fatalism. yet you have no problem trying to get me to buy into that view.

John 1,13 does not support you view, I was not saved by My Will, I was saved By Gods will. He chose to save me, I TRUSTED him when he offered it to me, Nothing more nothing less.

Romans 9 is not about whether God saved on kid or anothe rbefore birth, It is about God chosing the nation of Isreal. and keeping his promise that nothing is able to seperate us from the love of God (yet what happened to Israel? Did God make a mistake (rom 9:6)

I would suggest maybe stop thinking what you were taught, and start to open your mind some. Your strawman that I someone how saved myself because I said yes when God called is just that, a strawman.

PS, I am not offended that God is God, I am saddened that you portray God to be a God he is not not ever claimed to be.

 

[nowyouseem033]

Why would Paul endure so much trouble and physical persecution for the elect if God already chose them before the foundation of the world? "Hey Paul, it doesn't matter if you reach them with the gospel or not, they're going to get saved anyway. God elected them."

Let me ask you, all the missionaries who brave persecution, disease and death to family members, living poor lives without food many times for the sake of the gospel...all these missionaries are risking their lives for people who are already elect by God. Does that make sense to you? And please spare me the "God's ways are not our ways" excuse.

And by the way, let God be true and every man a liar. I don't care about what commentaries may or may not say. What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 18:10 "...I have many people in this city" Context is in this passage Paul wanted to move on from this city as no one was accepting what Paul preached, namely the gospel. However God told Paul to go back and continue to preach.. WHY? Because there were people who God had called in that city who still needed to hear the gospel.

Also your straw man arguments are pathetic and shows you actually do not know the doctrine of election rightly. To suggest we shouldnt preach the gospel because the elect will get saved anyway nnot one Calvinist agrees with this conclusion. How will they get saved without the preaching of the gospel? Do you know who the elect are?

Plus in adding dont think yourself above scripture. I asked the simple question show me one instance where 2 timothy explicitly mentions Jews or Israelite's? and you never answered the question. Which means you are imposing and inevitably distorting the text 2 Timothy which i said earlier is dangerous. The scriptures do not say Jews and Israelites so what saith the scriptures indeed?

 

[StanJ]

Hence my original question if you read at the beginning of the post.
Is election rooted in our response or rooted in the act of God? Not to mention you just distorted 2 thessolonians which explicitly says "you were chosen for salvation".... so yes election is linked to salvation or what is it linked to then???? Your accusations are unwarranted as well otherwise i might have to copy and paste the post from the other thread. I think you know the one. So im glad you accept election of a people. I do too... But what is election grounded and rooted in? Is it people? or is it God and his plan? I know what the Greek is in timothy and I know persevering is apart of the christian faith so i dont need those answers. But can you hold or go into any depth of the intention and origin of election?

I answered your post. I can't help it if you don't like the answer. My answer was very clear to anyone who wants to learn. We are the elect because we are saved, we are not elected to be saved. Depending on the context in the New Testament the elect can also be referring to the children of Israel, not because they are saved but because they are a chosen race. Despite that they also have to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior or they are cut off from the Olive Tree, as Paul teaches in Romans 11.
As I'm sure I've told you before, if you don't understand the vernacular of the King James version then you shouldn't use it. I called it from the NET, which is one of the most accurate English versions of today. If you're not willing to accept this linguistically superior version of the Bible then you won't be able to move on in your learning.
There are only three verses in the New Testament that deal with election and I think you should read them and understand what they are saying in the context they're used. They do not represent a doctrine.

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NET&quicksearch=Election&begin=47&end=73