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Thread: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

  1. #21
    Senior Member nowyouseem033's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by wwjd_kilden View Post
    My problem with the idea of God selecting us from the start is this:

    If He not only know, but DECIDES "Jack" will be saved and "John" won't , why bother putting them both on earth?
    Jack can't help John come to Christ anyway....
    also, that means God selected John for hell. You can't get around that one with only two possibilities.

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God

    Also, if we were selected from the beginning, why all this talk of having been lost and doomed and then saved? If we were always save, we were never lost.

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
    I dont intend to get around them either. Election biblically means God chooses for himself a people that will love and serve him. Which means yes that God has the right as creator to pass over some whilst saving others. Why would he do that though? doesnt it sound unfair and mean of God to do that?

    Romans 9:21 "Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay one vessel for honor and the other for dishonor?"

    Why though?

    Romans 9:23 "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the vessels of mercy that he prepared in advance for glory"

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by wwjd_kilden View Post
    He could choose not to create either to begin with.
    Why would God create life to choose to destroy it? Deserving or not.
    Here's the thing, in either schema, we end up with God creating a ppl that He knew MANY would die and suffer eternally.

    Oh, ppl try to mitigate it by saying God gave them ample opportunities. But He still created ppl, knowing they would suffer.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    I thing God is so great that He choses not only some general group of events, but also the smallest detail in it, like a genius all-powerful architect.

    Yes, He chose this world to exist, but also everything in it to happen Right? Every move of the atom and every individual to be as is.
    Absolutely, i believe God governs the whole world and everything in it. But the bible in no way supports any idea of possible worlds and predestinating events or electing situations. Thats just in no way biblical or even logical for that matter. Afterall its not the creation thats in rebellion towards God, its his creatures that are!
    Depleted and SovereignGrace like this.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    I dont intend to get around them either. Election biblically means God chooses for himself a people that will love and serve him. Which means yes that God has the right as creator to pass over some whilst saving others. Why would he do that though? doesnt it sound unfair and mean of God to do that?

    Romans 9:21 "Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay one vessel for honor and the other for dishonor?"

    Why though?

    Romans 9:23 "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the vessels of mercy that he prepared in advance for glory"
    does that mean John 3:16 is a lie, or does the word "world" suddenly mean "the elect to go to heaven" ? (I assume God did not love the people who, according to the election theory, were elect to end up in hell
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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    What I mean is the source of your faith from you, I.E., innate or gifted to you from the Father?
    Everything what I have in me is also a gift from the Father so how can I respond? Is there anything what exists without Him?

    When He created the Universe, He also predestined what will be in me in any moment of my life...
    Do not be worried about many things - only one thing is needed (Lk 10:41-42).

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by wwjd_kilden View Post
    does that mean John 3:16 is a lie, or does the word "world" suddenly mean "the elect to go to heaven" ? (I assume God did not love the people who, according to the election theory, were elect to end up in hell
    Why...

    Do ppl automatically go to John 3:16 as if we have blotted it out?
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Senior Member Blain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Well lets think of about this what we are really talking about is predestination as in were we predestined to be saved or were we predestined to be this kind of person for him ect. Now let's say that we were chosen before time began and that it was predestined that we would be him For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
    This would indicate that no matter what what we would have been saved and were chosen before hand but that also would mean that others were predestined to not be saved and spend eternity in hell and were not chosen and this goes against God's character doesn't it?

    There is a reason salvation is called in scripture a gift it is something given but you have to be willing to take it. I believe all were predestined and chosen before time began however he has always let us choose for ourselves free will decides if we accept this or not even the Pharisees were predestined and chosen but they chose to instead glorify themselves.
    My life's testimony seems to have helped many people so I am going to put it here http://christianchat.com/testimonies...-new-post.html

    When the hearts of God and a child of his make that special intimate connection a wondrous power is born and a flame ignites that can never be put out

    Jesus knew more than anyone of us-Love hurts

    The strongest among you may not wear a crown

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    Senior Member Tinuviel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by wwjd_kilden View Post
    My problem with the idea of God selecting us from the start is this:

    If He not only know, but DECIDES "Jack" will be saved and "John" won't , why bother putting them both on earth?
    Jack can't help John come to Christ anyway....
    also, that means God selected John for hell. You can't get around that one with only two possibilities.

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God

    Also, if we were selected from the beginning, why all this talk of having been lost and doomed and then saved? If we were always save, we were never lost.

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
    Y

    Yes, from a human perspective you would have to say that John was ordained to go to hell. Which doesn't seem fair, right? But that IS fair. That is the only thing fair about the world because everyone deserves hell. God selected SOME for life everlasting, and some he left to be doomed in hell. "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated." When we look at the biblical account of Jacob and Esau, they both start out pretty much creeps. God selected Jacob before he was born, and then molded him to His purpose. Esau was dammed before he was born. It is called "double predestination" and in this day and age it is a hard pill to swallow. Think of it this way:

    If I made two robots, and both of them turned out wrong and didn't do what I wanted, I have a perfect right to destroy them both. I also have a right to destroy one and keep the other, fitting it into my purposes and taking care of it. No one would call that unfair. Yet when God takes what he created, and justly damns some of his fallen creatures, it is considered unfair, unloving, unjust. Romans 9 has a startling example of this, and a startling conclusion which basically says "shut up!"


    10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


    16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

    19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

    22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


    I realize this is a much disputed chapter, but the message is clear. God reserves some of his created beings for hell (dishonor) that we might see His glory. His glory is displayed not necessarily in sending the unjust to hell, (though I think in heaven as perfect beings we will indeed see the glory of this) but in SAVING some sinners to heaven. And as the KJV would say (in it's rather blunt fashion): "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" Paul knows that this is a difficult truth, his response is "believe. Who are YOU to protest to the Creator?"
    Depleted likes this.
    “If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.”
    ~Charles Spurgeon

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    Everything what I have in me is also a gift from the Father so how can I respond? Is there anything what exists without Him?
    No.........
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

  10. #30
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Blain View Post
    Well lets think of about this what we are really talking about is predestination as in were we predestined to be saved or were we predestined to be this kind of person for him ect. Now let's say that we were chosen before time began and that it was predestined that we would be him For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
    This would indicate that no matter what what we would have been saved and were chosen before hand but that also would mean that others were predestined to not be saved and spend eternity in hell and were not chosen and this goes against God's character doesn't it?

    There is a reason salvation is called in scripture a gift it is something given but you have to be willing to take it. I believe all were predestined and chosen before time began however he has always let us choose for ourselves free will decides if we accept this or not even the Pharisees were predestined and chosen but they chose to instead glorify themselves.
    First off Brother, our wills are not free, but bound. Matthew 6 and Romans 6(Paul says we are slaves to sin, and slaves ain't free).

    And yes we must receive the gift of salvation. Just like the one who receives CPR after having an heart attack. Lazarus received life when he was dead, but he did not reach out and take it. God's gifts are irrevocable. When He gives gifts we accept them.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

  11. #31
    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    No.........
    So either way it happened (from my inside of from my outside), it was from Him.

    So I am probably for both views in the same time.
    Do not be worried about many things - only one thing is needed (Lk 10:41-42).

  12. #32
    Senior Member Blain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    I dont intend to get around them either. Election biblically means God chooses for himself a people that will love and serve him. Which means yes that God has the right as creator to pass over some whilst saving others. Why would he do that though? doesnt it sound unfair and mean of God to do that?

    Romans 9:21 "Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay one vessel for honor and the other for dishonor?"

    Why though?

    Romans 9:23 "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the vessels of mercy that he prepared in advance for glory"
    He tries to save everyone he constantly offers a way of salvation however not everyone wants it and rejects it. It's not that he passes over others it's that they simply reject him because they love the darkness and love to live life their own ways and him being the kind father he is allows them to do so. In my opinion it would be best if we didn't have a choice but father loves a willing child not a controlled one.

    The elect are simply the ones who accepted him it's not that they were more special than the ones who didn't or that they were chosen before hand above the others it's simply that they chose to accept his offering to us and thus became the elect. When God created the earth he knew all that would happen he knew people would suffer and he knew he would suffer as a father who sees his children suffer and die and refuse his love must be absolutely heartbreaking but he did this anyways because this is the love story of all love stories
    My life's testimony seems to have helped many people so I am going to put it here http://christianchat.com/testimonies...-new-post.html

    When the hearts of God and a child of his make that special intimate connection a wondrous power is born and a flame ignites that can never be put out

    Jesus knew more than anyone of us-Love hurts

    The strongest among you may not wear a crown

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by wwjd_kilden View Post
    does that mean John 3:16 is a lie, or does the word "world" suddenly mean "the elect to go to heaven" ? (I assume God did not love the people who, according to the election theory, were elect to end up in hell
    God certainly doesnt love the world the same way he loves the church...ahhh yeah. Gods love for the world and Gods love for the church are not the same.

    John 3:16 does indeed express the love of God but to whom though? every individual or individuals who believe in him? I think the latter... afterall Jesus doesnt pray for the world in John 17:9 but he certainly prays for his church, those whom God has given. Which again relates to election.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Blain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    First off Brother, our wills are not free, but bound. Matthew 6 and Romans 6(Paul says we are slaves to sin, and slaves ain't free).

    And yes we must receive the gift of salvation. Just like the one who receives CPR after having an heart attack. Lazarus received life when he was dead, but he did not reach out and take it. God's gifts are irrevocable. When He gives gifts we accept them.
    First I want to point out that paul specifically says over and over that we wereslaves to sin but are now slaves to Christ, I am not slave to sin for sin is not my master he is. second free will is indeed free because everyday we choose for ourselves. I can choose to lie about something or tell the truth I can choose to act out of anger or out of love our free will is evident in our every day decisions and the same goes for salvation if his gift was accepted no matter what then it wouldn't matter what choice we make would it?

    One major rule with God is that free will cannot be over ridden, he never forces us to choose him or to make the right choice instead he guides us he provokes us he will nudge us in that direction and even satan can only whisper and nudge us to make the wrong choice but he can never force us to
    Desertsrose likes this.
    My life's testimony seems to have helped many people so I am going to put it here http://christianchat.com/testimonies...-new-post.html

    When the hearts of God and a child of his make that special intimate connection a wondrous power is born and a flame ignites that can never be put out

    Jesus knew more than anyone of us-Love hurts

    The strongest among you may not wear a crown

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    And Brother, you're way too hung up on this mythical free will thing. Man's will is not free. Matthew 6 and Romans 6 easily refute this notion.
    Romans 6
    16 Know ye not, that to whomye yield yourselves servants to obey(the choice is ours), his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart(our choice to obey the gospel) that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    Seems pretty clear that the choice is up to us to receive the gospel.

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Blain View Post
    He tries to save everyone he constantly offers a way of salvation however not everyone wants it and rejects it. It's not that he passes over others it's that they simply reject him because they love the darkness and love to live life their own ways and him being the kind father he is allows them to do so. In my opinion it would be best if we didn't have a choice but father loves a willing child not a controlled one.

    The elect are simply the ones who accepted him it's not that they were more special than the ones who didn't or that they were chosen before hand above the others it's simply that they chose to accept his offering to us and thus became the elect. When God created the earth he knew all that would happen he knew people would suffer and he knew he would suffer as a father who sees his children suffer and die and refuse his love must be absolutely heartbreaking but he did this anyways because this is the love story of all love stories
    I agree with the first part that people reject him.... Why? John 10:26 "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep" ouch even Jesus wasnt afraid to preach election. The only difference is he knows those who are his and we do not.

    The elect are indeed those who accepted him OBVIOUSLY but whats election grounded in??? ME and MY response or God and his ACT?

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    Why...

    Do ppl automatically go to John 3:16 as if we have blotted it out?
    hahah. Havent you heard. John 3:16 is an automatic refutation of anything calvinist.
    Tinuviel likes this.

  18. #38
    Senior Member Tinuviel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Blain View Post
    He tries to save everyone he constantly offers a way of salvation however not everyone wants it and rejects it. It's not that he passes over others it's that they simply reject him because they love the darkness and love to live life their own ways and him being the kind father he is allows them to do so. In my opinion it would be best if we didn't have a choice but father loves a willing child not a controlled one.

    The elect are simply the ones who accepted him it's not that they were more special than the ones who didn't or that they were chosen before hand above the others it's simply that they chose to accept his offering to us and thus became the elect. When God created the earth he knew all that would happen he knew people would suffer and he knew he would suffer as a father who sees his children suffer and die and refuse his love must be absolutely heartbreaking but he did this anyways because this is the love story of all love stories
    This is a more acceptable way of saying it, but the problem I have with that view is this: you just said "God TRIES to save everyone" Obviously, not everyone is saved. So...This means that there are some parts of His creation that God has no control over. That is not a god I want to serve.

    We are DEAD in our sin, so even the power to accept or DESIRE to accept God comes from Him. Yes, God gives the offer of salvation to everyone, but dead men can do nothing for themselves. Say we as humans were in the middle of the ocean, unable to save ourselves. If we were drowning or merely DYING, we could reach for the life ring that God throws to us. Since we are DEAD, we are incapable of doing even that. God must first make us alive, so we can reach out and grasp the life ring. WE chose to grasp the ring, but WE would never have even seen it if GOD had not opened our eyes and shown it to us. We would have remained dead in our trespasses, not even seeing or desiring the life ring.
    nowyouseem033 and Depleted like this.
    “If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.”
    ~Charles Spurgeon

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinuviel View Post
    This is a more acceptable way of saying it, but the problem I have with that view is this: you just said "God TRIES to save everyone" Obviously, not everyone is saved. So...This means that there are some parts of His creation that God has no control over. That is not a god I want to serve.

    We are DEAD in our sin, so even the power to accept or DESIRE to accept God comes from Him. Yes, God gives the offer of salvation to everyone, but dead men can do nothing for themselves. Say we as humans were in the middle of the ocean, unable to save ourselves. If we were drowning or merely DYING, we could reach for the life ring that God throws to us. Since we are DEAD, we are incapable of doing even that. God must first make us alive, so we can reach out and grasp the life ring. WE chose to grasp the ring, but WE would never have even seen it if GOD had not opened our eyes and shown it to us. We would have remained dead in our trespasses, not even seeing or desiring the life ring.
    You mean you want God to have control over all creation?
    Do you want Him to decide what time you should wake up Tomorrow?
    How far would you like this to go??

    If we're drowing, we're not dead YET. Your post above is confusing.
    The Ring...

    Once we learn about God, we SEE the ring. HE doesn't have to FORCE us to see it.

    The Whole point of salvation economy is that God made a way for us to be saved.
    WE have to WANT to be saved.
    Otherwise what does that make us?
    God's puppets??

    Fran
    oldethennew likes this.

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinuviel View Post
    This is a more acceptable way of saying it, but the problem I have with that view is this: you just said "God TRIES to save everyone" Obviously, not everyone is saved. So...This means that there are some parts of His creation that God has no control over. That is not a god I want to serve.

    We are DEAD in our sin, so even the power to accept or DESIRE to accept God comes from Him. Yes, God gives the offer of salvation to everyone, but dead men can do nothing for themselves. Say we as humans were in the middle of the ocean, unable to save ourselves. If we were drowning or merely DYING, we could reach for the life ring that God throws to us. Since we are DEAD, we are incapable of doing even that. God must first make us alive, so we can reach out and grasp the life ring. WE chose to grasp the ring, but WE would never have even seen it if GOD had not opened our eyes and shown it to us. We would have remained dead in our trespasses, not even seeing or desiring the life ring.
    At 17 you are demonstrating biblical distinctions and logical coherency... this cant be true. Surely!!! Calvinism must really be making a resurgence and revival amongst the young adults
    Depleted likes this.

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