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Thread: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

  1. #41
    Senior Member nowyouseem033's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    You mean you want God to have control over all creation?
    Do you want Him to decide what time you should wake up Tomorrow?
    How far would you like this to go??

    If we're drowing, we're not dead YET. Your post above is confusing.
    The Ring...

    Once we learn about God, we SEE the ring. HE doesn't have to FORCE us to see it.

    The Whole point of salvation economy is that God made a way for us to be saved.
    WE have to WANT to be saved.
    Otherwise what does that make us?
    God's puppets??

    Fran
    So where did this desire to learn about Gd come from when your in rebellion against him, enemys with him and are a lover of darkness? Thats funny you say we have to want to be saved because calvinists agree.... but where does the want come from given you and i both hate him?
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  2. #42
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    So either way it happened (from my inside of from my outside), it was from Him.

    So I am probably for both views in the same time.
    Logically you can't hold to both.

  3. #43
    Senior Member FranC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    I dont intend to get around them either. Election biblically means God chooses for himself a people that will love and serve him. Which means yes that God has the right as creator to pass over some whilst saving others. Why would he do that though? doesnt it sound unfair and mean of God to do that?

    Romans 9:21 "Does not the Potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay one vessel for honor and the other for dishonor?"

    Why though?

    Romans 9:23 "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the vessels of mercy that he prepared in advance for glory"
    God must be a little god if He needs to create me to be lost for all eternity so He could let His glory be known.

    I learn from the bible that God is a GOOD God.
    How is he good if He makes some people go to hell with no input from them??

    Fran

  4. #44
    Senior Member Tinuviel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    You mean you want God to have control over all creation?
    Do you want Him to decide what time you should wake up Tomorrow?
    How far would you like this to go??

    If we're drowing, we're not dead YET. Your post above is confusing.
    The Ring...

    Once we learn about God, we SEE the ring. HE doesn't have to FORCE us to see it.

    The Whole point of salvation economy is that God made a way for us to be saved.
    WE have to WANT to be saved.
    Otherwise what does that make us?
    God's puppets??

    Fran
    Fran, my point was that we are NOT merely drowning. The bible says we're DEAD in sin, not DYING. If I were merely dying, I would have the strength and desire to reach out and grab the life ring. I'm dead. I can't do anything until I learn about God and He creates a spiritual rebirth so that I can desire to grab the ring. Yes, when God has stirred my heart my desire to grab the ring is real. He doesn't force me to grab it, but once He has put the desire into my heart, I WILL grab it. He HAS made a way for us to be saved: the death of His Son. But we are SO far removed from God that we can't even see that "life ring" it doesn't even make sense to us until He has opened our eyes to see the lifesaver that He has provided for us--Christ Jesus.
    Depleted and SovereignGrace like this.
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
    ~James 1:17

  5. #45
    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    You mean you want God to have control over all creation?
    You dont?

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    Do you want Him to decide what time you should wake up Tomorrow?
    How far would you like this to go??
    As far as He is great, so without any end.
    Tinuviel likes this.
    God's truth prevails (John Huss) * Pravda Boží vítězí (Jan Hus)

  6. #46
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Blain View Post
    He tries to save everyone he constantly offers a way of salvation however not everyone wants it and rejects it. It's not that he passes over others it's that they simply reject him because they love the darkness and love to live life their own ways and him being the kind father he is allows them to do so. In my opinion it would be best if we didn't have a choice but father loves a willing child not a controlled one.

    The elect are simply the ones who accepted him it's not that they were more special than the ones who didn't or that they were chosen before hand above the others it's simply that they chose to accept his offering to us and thus became the elect. When God created the earth he knew all that would happen he knew people would suffer and he knew he would suffer as a father who sees his children suffer and die and refuse his love must be absolutely heartbreaking but he did this anyways because this is the love story of all love stories
    God...

    Doesn't try anything. He does it. God doesn't try to save ppl, He saves them.

    And He SHALL save His ppl from their sins.[Matthew 1:21]

  7. #47
    Senior Member Tinuviel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    At 17 you are demonstrating biblical distinctions and logical coherency... this cant be true. Surely!!! Calvinism must really be making a resurgence and revival amongst the young adults
    There is nothing amazing about it; call it blessed beyond measure. I am very blessed to come from a home where Biblical truths were taught, and we learned to express them
    Depleted and SovereignGrace like this.
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
    ~James 1:17

  8. #48
    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    God did not create any man to perish. Adam sinned and that changed the whole equation. Through Adams sin all men must choose between sin and salvation.

    Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    Use of the word elect in scripture is not always the same as we use in our common vernacular.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    Billyd, FranC and Desertsrose like this.
    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

  9. #49
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Blain View Post
    First I want to point out that paul specifically says over and over that we wereslaves to sin but are now slaves to Christ, I am not slave to sin for sin is not my master he is. second free will is indeed free because everyday we choose for ourselves. I can choose to lie about something or tell the truth I can choose to act out of anger or out of love our free will is evident in our every day decisions and the same goes for salvation if his gift was accepted no matter what then it wouldn't matter what choice we make would it?

    One major rule with God is that free will cannot be over ridden, he never forces us to choose him or to make the right choice instead he guides us he provokes us he will nudge us in that direction and even satan can only whisper and nudge us to make the wrong choice but he can never force us to
    You who were dead in transgressions and sins He has quickened. He has made alive. Nekros is the Greek word which mean literally a dead corpse. Dead corpses don't reach out and take hold of anything.

  10. #50
    Senior Member nowyouseem033's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by FranC View Post
    God must be a little god if He needs to create me to be lost for all eternity so He could let His glory be known.

    I learn from the bible that God is a GOOD God.
    How is he good if He makes some people go to hell with no input from them??

    Fran
    HAHAHA well if you learn from the bible then deal with Paul in Romans 9:23 and 21. What about when Jesus said in John 10:26 "the reason you dont believe is because you are not my sheep" thats the reason for unbelief. What about when Paul says Jacob I loved, Esau I hated... what about the scripture that says God hardens whom he hardens in Romans 9:18?

    He is good because he is God.

    Do you really think that this world centres around you? You are not the centre of Gods world, Jesus Christ is not you or me. God does everything not for you but for his Son Jesus. Which means God is doing everything for his own glory!!! Including showing mercy and compassion to one group and justice and judgement to another. Whats the problem?
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  11. #51
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
    You're using eisegesis here. That's not the context of 2 Peter 3:9.

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    There's one word that is ALWAYS overlooked...Us-ward. The Us-ward is the church, the bride of Christ. He's not willing that any of the Us-ward should perish.

    Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    Paul is speaking of 'Israel' here, with 'Israel' being all the believers. See Romans 2:28,29.

    Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    Jesus was grieving about their impending judgment. He gets no pleasure out of the death of wicked. But in His righteousness, they have to pay for their open rebellion of him.

    God did not create any man to perish. Adam sinned and that changed the whole equation. Through Adams sin all men must choose between sin and salvation.
    Correct in that God did not create any man to perish.

    Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
    Correct.

    Use of the word elect in scripture is not always the same as we use in our common vernacular.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    But elect salvifically means they were chosen from before the creation of the world.

  12. #52
    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    You're using eisegesis here. That's not the context of 2 Peter 3:9.
    Horse feathers.
    There's one word that is ALWAYS overlooked...Us-ward. The Us-ward is the church, the bride of Christ. He's not willing that any of the Us-ward should perish.
    We cannot perish in Christ. God wants all men to be saved.
    Paul is speaking of 'Israel' here, with 'Israel' being all the believers. See Romans 2:28,29.
    That does not mean that there is no application to all men.
    Jesus was grieving about their impending judgment. He gets no pleasure out of the death of wicked. But in His righteousness, they have to pay for their open rebellion of him.
    Gods judgment is upon sin and not the souls of men.
    Correct in that God did not create any man to perish.
    So keep that context and apply to all the above verses.
    But elect salvifically means they were chosen from before the creation of the world.
    You become elect when you become saved. We are elect in Christ because we have received Him as Savior. The problem arises when you try to make salvation a result of being elect from before the creation of the world.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

  13. #53
    Senior Member wwjd_kilden's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    hahah. Havent you heard. John 3:16 is an automatic refutation of anything calvinist.

    we are not to take away from the bible, and the verse says God loved THE WORLD
    are you going to say He did not? Does your bible say this verse should not be there? does your bible say "God loved the people in the world who believed in him?"
    Grandpa and Blain like this.

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    Senior Member wwjd_kilden's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    You who were dead in transgressions and sins He has quickened. He has made alive. Nekros is the Greek word which mean literally a dead corpse. Dead corpses don't reach out and take hold of anything.
    so God created dead corpses to send them to hell?

  15. #55
    Senior Member Blain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    I agree with the first part that people reject him.... Why? John 10:26 "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep" ouch even Jesus wasnt afraid to preach election. The only difference is he knows those who are his and we do not.

    The elect are indeed those who accepted him OBVIOUSLY but whats election grounded in??? ME and MY response or God and his ACT?
    but whats election grounded in??? ME and MY response or God and his ACT?[ Both my friend
    My life's testimony seems to have helped many people so I am going to put it here http://christianchat.com/testimonies...-new-post.html

    When the hearts of God and a child of his make that special intimate connection a wondrous power is born and a flame ignites that can never be put out

    Jesus knew more than anyone of us-Love hurts

    A fired up Christian shouldn't be that big a deal. Our love should be an overpowering burning desire to serve and be in His presence

  16. #56
    Senior Member Blain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinuviel View Post
    This is a more acceptable way of saying it, but the problem I have with that view is this: you just said "God TRIES to save everyone" Obviously, not everyone is saved. So...This means that there are some parts of His creation that God has no control over. That is not a god I want to serve.

    We are DEAD in our sin, so even the power to accept or DESIRE to accept God comes from Him. Yes, God gives the offer of salvation to everyone, but dead men can do nothing for themselves. Say we as humans were in the middle of the ocean, unable to save ourselves. If we were drowning or merely DYING, we could reach for the life ring that God throws to us. Since we are DEAD, we are incapable of doing even that. God must first make us alive, so we can reach out and grasp the life ring. WE chose to grasp the ring, but WE would never have even seen it if GOD had not opened our eyes and shown it to us. We would have remained dead in our trespasses, not even seeing or desiring the life ring.
    So if God gives us the choice to accept him or not and some of us absolutely refuse and won't be saved you don't want to serve him? How can we blame God for the poor decisions of ourselves? He gives us the free choice not because he isn't in control or couldn't make us serve him but in his love he gives his children the freedom to choose. Do you have any idea how badly his heart aches all the time? I mean it's one thing for us as humans and as parents to lose a child but how much greater must it hurt for the original parent to see his children choose to refuse his arms and burn in hell?

    if election is true then so is predestination which would mean he made some of us to burn in hell no matter what in which case why do we as believers even bother to go to the extremes to save a soul? it goes against his nature to have made and formed every one of us in the womb with such tender care and detail even to a single strand of hair on our heads if some were only made to burn
    My life's testimony seems to have helped many people so I am going to put it here http://christianchat.com/testimonies...-new-post.html

    When the hearts of God and a child of his make that special intimate connection a wondrous power is born and a flame ignites that can never be put out

    Jesus knew more than anyone of us-Love hurts

    A fired up Christian shouldn't be that big a deal. Our love should be an overpowering burning desire to serve and be in His presence

  17. #57
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by wwjd_kilden View Post
    so God created dead corpses to send them to hell?
    God created Adam with a spirit that was alive. He died spiritually the moment he disobeyed. We reap that which Adam sowed. We are born dead in Adam.

  18. #58
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by wwjd_kilden View Post
    we are not to take away from the bible, and the verse says God loved THE WORLD
    are you going to say He did not? Does your bible say this verse should not be there? does your bible say "God loved the people in the world who believed in him?"
    And yet God hates all workers of iniquity.[Psalm 5:5] He also hates those who bear false witness and sow discord. [Proverbs 6:16]

  19. #59
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Horse feathers.

    We cannot perish in Christ. God wants all men to be saved.

    That does not mean that there is no application to all men.

    Gods judgment is upon sin and not the souls of men.

    So keep that context and apply to all the above verses.

    You become elect when you become saved. We are elect in Christ because we have received Him as Savior. The problem arises when you try to make salvation a result of being elect from before the creation of the world.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    And it's posts like this that cause me to avoid these topics. Adieu.

  20. #60
    Senior Member Blain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    And yet God hates all workers of iniquity.[Psalm 5:5] He also hates those who bear false witness and sow discord. [Proverbs 6:16]
    You misunderstand what those verses mean. Yes he hates it workers of iniquity and who bear false witness and such but not like the hate your thinking. He hates their works and wants them to change their ways and live a holy and clean life. Now if I hated someone I could care less about them changing their ways and would want only the worst for them but I think Jesus showed how far he was willing to go for even the most evil hearts. He didn't die for the chosen or for the good he died for all the good and the bad he would have done all he had to go through a million times over for just one of us if that doesn't express the depth of his love for even the seemingly lost forever kind of people I don't know what does
    My life's testimony seems to have helped many people so I am going to put it here http://christianchat.com/testimonies...-new-post.html

    When the hearts of God and a child of his make that special intimate connection a wondrous power is born and a flame ignites that can never be put out

    Jesus knew more than anyone of us-Love hurts

    A fired up Christian shouldn't be that big a deal. Our love should be an overpowering burning desire to serve and be in His presence

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