Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

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nowyouseem033

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2014
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#1
Moving on from the previous thread of Total Depravity we end on the TULIP acronym, letter U.

U standing for Unconditional Election...

What scriptures and arguments are there to support Election being 1) Unconditional or 2) Conditional?

If one starts with the premise that we cannot (unable) to choose God UNLESS God first chooses to do a work in us so that we respond by faith to him, then it ties in with Total Depravity and would render election UNCONDITIONAL.
However if one starts with the premise that we can choose God through our free will then in turn denies Total depravity, one holds that the choice has been given to us by God and he is waiting for us to respond by faith to him that therefore would render election CONDITIONAL.

Which is a biblical and accurate picture of how election takes place?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#3
I believe that God, before He created the Universe, was seeing all possible worlds with all possible combinations of acts, decisions etc.

And He chose to create our world, because He liked it the most.

He chose to create the world where I and you will come to faith, because this world was the best of all possible worlds.

So, am I for conditional or unconditional election? I think both :)
 
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Dec 28, 2016
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#4
We were chosen in Christ from BEFORE the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4]

Before Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, God loved Jacob and hated Esau.[Romans 9:13]
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,481
3,497
113
#5
Moving on from the previous thread of Total Depravity we end on the TULIP acronym, letter U.

U standing for Unconditional Election...

What scriptures and arguments are there to support Election being 1) Unconditional or 2) Conditional?

If one starts with the premise that we cannot (unable) to choose God UNLESS God first chooses to do a work in us so that we respond by faith to him, then it ties in with Total Depravity and would render election UNCONDITIONAL.
However if one starts with the premise that we can choose God through our free will then in turn denies Total depravity, one holds that the choice has been given to us by God and he is waiting for us to respond by faith to him that therefore would render election CONDITIONAL.

Which is a biblical and accurate picture of how election takes place?
Is there a third choice? How about man has free will to choose and once man makes the choice to believe the gospel, God elects that man (because the man is now "in Christ) to receive the adoption which is the redemption of our body.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#6
I believe that God, before He created the Universe, was seeing all possible worlds with all possible combinations of acts, decisions etc.

And He chose to create our world, because He liked it the most.

He chose to create the world where I and you will come to faith, because this world was the best of all possible worlds.

So, am I for conditional or unconditional election?
It depends on how you see ppl coming to faith.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#7
Is there a third choice? How about man has free will to choose and once man makes the choice to believe the gospel, God elects that man (because the man is now "in Christ) to receive the adoption which is the redemption of our body.
You have men doing something and then Him saving them. That's conditional election.
 

nowyouseem033

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2014
535
30
28
#8
I believe that God, before He created the Universe, was seeing all possible worlds with all possible combinations of acts, decisions etc.

And He chose to create our world, because He liked it the most.

He chose to create the world where I and you will come to faith, because this world was the best of all possible worlds.

So, am I for conditional or unconditional election?
Molinism certainly would fall into Conditional Election. Essentially God is reacting to the choices being made by humans rather than acting. So election would be grounded in the response of man rather then by the choice and act of God.
 

nowyouseem033

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2014
535
30
28
#9
Is there a third choice? How about man has free will to choose and once man makes the choice to believe the gospel, God elects that man (because the man is now "in Christ) to receive the adoption which is the redemption of our body.
Yeah that would be Conditional because its your response that enables election rather than Gods choosing individuals.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#10
Is there a third choice? How about man has free will to choose and once man makes the choice to believe the gospel, God elects that man (because the man is now "in Christ) to receive the adoption which is the redemption of our body.
And Brother, you're way too hung up on this mythical free will thing. Man's will is not free. Matthew 6 and Romans 6 easily refute this notion.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#11
Molinism certainly would fall into Conditional Election. Essentially God is reacting to the choices being made by humans rather than acting. So election would be grounded in the response of man rather then by the choice and act of God.
He created the universe where I came to faith. How is it reacting?

P.S. I dont think this is molinism.
 

nowyouseem033

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2014
535
30
28
#13
He created the universe where I came to faith. How is it reacting?

P.S. I dont think this is molinism.
Because essentially what God is electing is not people but a world of which this and this take place. Unfortunately election is always linked to a people not places or events.

He knew you would react by faith in this world rather than non-faith in another world. God is essentially electing worlds not people. :)
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#14
My problem with the idea of God selecting us from the start is this:

If He not only know, but DECIDES "Jack" will be saved and "John" won't , why bother putting them both on earth?
Jack can't help John come to Christ anyway....
also, that means God selected John for hell. You can't get around that one with only two possibilities.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God

Also, if we were selected from the beginning, why all this talk of having been lost and doomed and then saved? If we were always save, we were never lost.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#15
Because essentially what God is electing is not people but a world of which this and this take place. Unfortunately election is always linked to a people not places or events.

He knew you would react by faith in this world rather than non-faith in another world. God is essentially electing worlds not people. :)
I thing God is so great that He choses not only some general group of events, but also the smallest detail in it, like a genius all-powerful architect.

Yes, He chose this world to exist, but also everything in it to happen :) Right? Every move of the atom and every individual to be as is.
 
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#16
My problem with the idea of God selecting us from the start is this:

If He not only know, but DECIDES "Jack" will be saved and "John" won't , why bother putting them both on earth?
Jack can't help John come to Christ anyway....
also, that means God selected John for hell. You can't get around that one with only two possibilities.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God

Also, if we were selected from the beginning, why all this talk of having been lost and doomed and then saved? If we were always save, we were never lost.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
The question should be, why does He save Jack? Both were equally lost, reserving eternal hell. So, why does He save anybody should be the question asked.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#17
How did you come to faith?
I am believing from childhood, so I do not remember the exact moment of "now I believe!".

If you mean theologically, I suppose I was elected to be so :)
 
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#18
I thing God is so great that He choses not only some general group of events, but also the smallest detail in it, like a genius all-powerful architect.

Yes, He chose this world to exist, but also everything in it to happen :) Right?
Nothing happens beyond His control. He has ordined all that comes to pass. The fall He ordained and used secondary causes for it to happen.

The crucifixion of the Christ was by primary causes.
 
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wwjd_kilden

Guest
#19
The question should be, why does He save Jack? Both were equally lost, reserving eternal hell. So, why does He save anybody should be the question asked.
He could choose not to create either to begin with.
Why would God create life to choose to destroy it? Deserving or not.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#20
I am believing from childhood, so I do not remember the exact moment of "now I believe!".

If you mean theologically, I suppose I was elected to be so :)
What I mean is the source of your faith from you, I.E., innate or gifted to you from the Father?