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Thread: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

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    Senior Member nowyouseem033's Avatar
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    Default Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Moving on from the previous thread of Total Depravity we end on the TULIP acronym, letter U.

    U standing for Unconditional Election...

    What scriptures and arguments are there to support Election being 1) Unconditional or 2) Conditional?

    If one starts with the premise that we cannot (unable) to choose God UNLESS God first chooses to do a work in us so that we respond by faith to him, then it ties in with Total Depravity and would render election UNCONDITIONAL.
    However if one starts with the premise that we can choose God through our free will then in turn denies Total depravity, one holds that the choice has been given to us by God and he is waiting for us to respond by faith to him that therefore would render election CONDITIONAL.

    Which is a biblical and accurate picture of how election takes place?

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    "U"............
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    I believe that God, before He created the Universe, was seeing all possible worlds with all possible combinations of acts, decisions etc.

    And He chose to create our world, because He liked it the most.

    He chose to create the world where I and you will come to faith, because this world was the best of all possible worlds.

    So, am I for conditional or unconditional election? I think both
    Last edited by trofimus; January 10th, 2017 at 12:10 PM.
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    Let the brotherly love stay * Láska bratrská ať zůstává

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    We were chosen in Christ from BEFORE the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4]

    Before Jacob and Esau had done anything good or bad, God loved Jacob and hated Esau.[Romans 9:13]
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    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    Moving on from the previous thread of Total Depravity we end on the TULIP acronym, letter U.

    U standing for Unconditional Election...

    What scriptures and arguments are there to support Election being 1) Unconditional or 2) Conditional?

    If one starts with the premise that we cannot (unable) to choose God UNLESS God first chooses to do a work in us so that we respond by faith to him, then it ties in with Total Depravity and would render election UNCONDITIONAL.
    However if one starts with the premise that we can choose God through our free will then in turn denies Total depravity, one holds that the choice has been given to us by God and he is waiting for us to respond by faith to him that therefore would render election CONDITIONAL.

    Which is a biblical and accurate picture of how election takes place?
    Is there a third choice? How about man has free will to choose and once man makes the choice to believe the gospel, God elects that man (because the man is now "in Christ) to receive the adoption which is the redemption of our body.
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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    I believe that God, before He created the Universe, was seeing all possible worlds with all possible combinations of acts, decisions etc.

    And He chose to create our world, because He liked it the most.

    He chose to create the world where I and you will come to faith, because this world was the best of all possible worlds.

    So, am I for conditional or unconditional election?
    It depends on how you see ppl coming to faith.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Is there a third choice? How about man has free will to choose and once man makes the choice to believe the gospel, God elects that man (because the man is now "in Christ) to receive the adoption which is the redemption of our body.
    You have men doing something and then Him saving them. That's conditional election.
    Dino246 likes this.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Senior Member nowyouseem033's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    I believe that God, before He created the Universe, was seeing all possible worlds with all possible combinations of acts, decisions etc.

    And He chose to create our world, because He liked it the most.

    He chose to create the world where I and you will come to faith, because this world was the best of all possible worlds.

    So, am I for conditional or unconditional election?
    Molinism certainly would fall into Conditional Election. Essentially God is reacting to the choices being made by humans rather than acting. So election would be grounded in the response of man rather then by the choice and act of God.
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    Senior Member nowyouseem033's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Is there a third choice? How about man has free will to choose and once man makes the choice to believe the gospel, God elects that man (because the man is now "in Christ) to receive the adoption which is the redemption of our body.
    Yeah that would be Conditional because its your response that enables election rather than Gods choosing individuals.
    John146 likes this.

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Is there a third choice? How about man has free will to choose and once man makes the choice to believe the gospel, God elects that man (because the man is now "in Christ) to receive the adoption which is the redemption of our body.
    And Brother, you're way too hung up on this mythical free will thing. Man's will is not free. Matthew 6 and Romans 6 easily refute this notion.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    Molinism certainly would fall into Conditional Election. Essentially God is reacting to the choices being made by humans rather than acting. So election would be grounded in the response of man rather then by the choice and act of God.
    He created the universe where I came to faith. How is it reacting?

    P.S. I dont think this is molinism.
    Let the brotherly love stay * Láska bratrská ať zůstává

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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    He created the universe where I came to faith. How is it reacting?
    How did you come to faith?
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Senior Member nowyouseem033's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    He created the universe where I came to faith. How is it reacting?

    P.S. I dont think this is molinism.
    Because essentially what God is electing is not people but a world of which this and this take place. Unfortunately election is always linked to a people not places or events.

    He knew you would react by faith in this world rather than non-faith in another world. God is essentially electing worlds not people.
    SovereignGrace likes this.

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    wwjd_kilden
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    My problem with the idea of God selecting us from the start is this:

    If He not only know, but DECIDES "Jack" will be saved and "John" won't , why bother putting them both on earth?
    Jack can't help John come to Christ anyway....
    also, that means God selected John for hell. You can't get around that one with only two possibilities.

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God

    Also, if we were selected from the beginning, why all this talk of having been lost and doomed and then saved? If we were always save, we were never lost.

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by nowyouseem033 View Post
    Because essentially what God is electing is not people but a world of which this and this take place. Unfortunately election is always linked to a people not places or events.

    He knew you would react by faith in this world rather than non-faith in another world. God is essentially electing worlds not people.
    I thing God is so great that He choses not only some general group of events, but also the smallest detail in it, like a genius all-powerful architect.

    Yes, He chose this world to exist, but also everything in it to happen Right? Every move of the atom and every individual to be as is.
    Last edited by trofimus; January 10th, 2017 at 12:28 PM.
    Let the brotherly love stay * Láska bratrská ať zůstává

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by wwjd_kilden View Post
    My problem with the idea of God selecting us from the start is this:

    If He not only know, but DECIDES "Jack" will be saved and "John" won't , why bother putting them both on earth?
    Jack can't help John come to Christ anyway....
    also, that means God selected John for hell. You can't get around that one with only two possibilities.

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God

    Also, if we were selected from the beginning, why all this talk of having been lost and doomed and then saved? If we were always save, we were never lost.

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
    The question should be, why does He save Jack? Both were equally lost, reserving eternal hell. So, why does He save anybody should be the question asked.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    How did you come to faith?
    I am believing from childhood, so I do not remember the exact moment of "now I believe!".

    If you mean theologically, I suppose I was elected to be so
    Let the brotherly love stay * Láska bratrská ať zůstává

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    I thing God is so great that He choses not only some general group of events, but also the smallest detail in it, like a genius all-powerful architect.

    Yes, He chose this world to exist, but also everything in it to happen Right?
    Nothing happens beyond His control. He has ordined all that comes to pass. The fall He ordained and used secondary causes for it to happen.

    The crucifixion of the Christ was by primary causes.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

  19. #19
    wwjd_kilden
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    The question should be, why does He save Jack? Both were equally lost, reserving eternal hell. So, why does He save anybody should be the question asked.
    He could choose not to create either to begin with.
    Why would God create life to choose to destroy it? Deserving or not.

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    I am believing from childhood, so I do not remember the exact moment of "now I believe!".

    If you mean theologically, I suppose I was elected to be so
    What I mean is the source of your faith from you, I.E., innate or gifted to you from the Father?
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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