I have never found anyone who adequately explained this message given by Jesus. It seems obvious to me that the first century church believed that Jesus would return during their life time. I suppose that many believed that Christ would return immediately after the destruction of the temple and of the nation. After Christ did not return they were forced to acknowledge that Jesus was speaking of two events, though they were written together in such a fashion as to make it appear as one. The secret to understanding Matt 24,Mark 13, and Luke 21 seems to me to be in learning to recognize the places where Jesus described the destruction of Jerusalem that occurred around 70ad and the places that describe Christ return and the end of the age. To make things more complex, it appears that some of the things that happened in 70ad may have something very similar to it happen at the end of the age. First, when Jesus told the apostles to flee to the mountains when they seen Jerusalem surrounded by armies...that happened in 70ad. There is a place in scripture where Jesus spoke of His return and he told the disciples not to flee or to try to save their life. So that is a clear difference. The 70ad Christians were to run for their lives, the end time Christians were to stand their ground(because the angels would gather them). I wonder how many differences others have noticed between the 70ad destruction and the end time destruction?
Understanding Matt 24,Mark 13,Luke21
- Thread starter samuel23
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Good evening samuel23,
The scriptures below are referring to the same event:
"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again." - Matt.24:15-21
"The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."
- Rev.12:6
"The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. - Rev.12:14
According to Dan.9:27 and quoted by Jesus in Matt.24:15, , the abomination will be set up in the temple in the middle of the seven years, which initiates the great tribulation period, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. When the abomination is set up and the man who made the seven year covenant with Israel proclaims to be God, then the desolation will take place, which is when Israel will flee from Jerusalem/Judea to that place prepared for her out in the wilderness. There Israel will remain until the Lord returns 3 1/2 years later.
Below is the scripture that you are referring to:
"Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. "
Therefore, based on the first part of the scripture, finding ones life would be the opposite of living for Christ, i.e. those who are living according to the sinful nature who have their eyes set on the things of this world. The Lord, who searches the hearts of believers, knows whether He is first or not in the hearts of those who claim to belong to him.
"Finding ones life" can also be applied to when that mark of the beast comes out. For this coming mark will be like that proverbial line being drawn in the sand. At that time there will be no more neutrality, no fence sitting. The mark will force the inhabitants of the earth to make a clear choice. For without the mark, no one will be able to buy or sell, which will mean that anyone without it will not be able to be apart of the world economy. Without it, they will not be able to electronically credit or debit their bank accounts. Therefore, the way in which people will find their lives at that time, will be by saving their own lives by receiving the mark over God. Others however, (the great tribulation saints) will be willing rather to lose their lives for His name sake and the word of God and will not receive the mark.
The scriptures below are referring to the same event:
"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again." - Matt.24:15-21
"The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."
- Rev.12:6
"The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. - Rev.12:14
According to Dan.9:27 and quoted by Jesus in Matt.24:15, , the abomination will be set up in the temple in the middle of the seven years, which initiates the great tribulation period, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. When the abomination is set up and the man who made the seven year covenant with Israel proclaims to be God, then the desolation will take place, which is when Israel will flee from Jerusalem/Judea to that place prepared for her out in the wilderness. There Israel will remain until the Lord returns 3 1/2 years later.
Below is the scripture that you are referring to:
"Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. "
Therefore, based on the first part of the scripture, finding ones life would be the opposite of living for Christ, i.e. those who are living according to the sinful nature who have their eyes set on the things of this world. The Lord, who searches the hearts of believers, knows whether He is first or not in the hearts of those who claim to belong to him.
"Finding ones life" can also be applied to when that mark of the beast comes out. For this coming mark will be like that proverbial line being drawn in the sand. At that time there will be no more neutrality, no fence sitting. The mark will force the inhabitants of the earth to make a clear choice. For without the mark, no one will be able to buy or sell, which will mean that anyone without it will not be able to be apart of the world economy. Without it, they will not be able to electronically credit or debit their bank accounts. Therefore, the way in which people will find their lives at that time, will be by saving their own lives by receiving the mark over God. Others however, (the great tribulation saints) will be willing rather to lose their lives for His name sake and the word of God and will not receive the mark.
Hi birdie: The reason I believe the first century church believed that Jesus would "probably" return in their life time was that in the letters of instruction written by Paul, Peter, James, John, they told Christians to wait for the Lord's return. Today we tend to teach Christians to remain faithful until their life time is up and then they will go be with the Lord. In the NT believers were taught to remain faithful UNTIL JESUS RETURNED...they were not expecting to physically die.
Hi Ahwatukee: So you believe that there is a double meaning to the scripture where Jesus told the disciples to flee to the mountains when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies? The event that happened around 70 Ad and also something similar that will happen just before the return of Christ? Here are the two different scripture versions of what to do, the first one, when the temple and Israel were destroyed in 70ad ,and the second one when Christ returns to gather the believers. Luke 21:20 when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies(abomination of desolation in Matt,Mark) THEN let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains and let them which are in the midst of it(Judea)depart OUT...for these be the days of vengeance. That obviously happened in 70ad. Now this is Jesus describing His actual return Luke 17:24 for as the lightning that lights out of the one part under heaven and shines unto the other part, so shall also the Son of Man be in His day..33 whoever shall seek to SAVE his life shall lose it..in that night there will shall be two in one bed, the one shall be taken and the other shall be left(taken by the angels). So it is clear from scripture(to me anyway) that the "flee for your life" was for 70ad, while "do not seek to save you life" is for the time when Christ appears.
In Luke 21:36 the Lord wants us to escape what is coming on the Earth (The Great Tribulation---Time of Jacob's Trouble)---pray to be counted worthy-----in the same sense the disciples were "worthy" to suffer persecution for the Lord...(Acts 5:41)---not in a lukewarm state----when the Rapture takes place will lukewarm Christians go with the Lord?-----seems like He will spew them out of His mouth---don't know for sure and don't want to find out...(Revelation 3:14-19)---referring to 70 A.D.----Christians left Jerusalem when Titus came---destroyed the temple---no Christians died... if you study to Book of Revelation---the Church is not mentioned in the Tribulation----the purpose of the Tribulation is to have Jews turn to Christ----144,000 chapter 7---are firstfruits unto God----more saved later----the purpose also of the Tribulation is to judge those who have rejected Christ---"The Winepress of the Wrath of God"...Grace and Peace
What happened in 70 AD may have absolutely nothing to do with the scriptures you quote... The prophecies have to all happen as stated.. It's like stating that an earthquake in 100 ad was the fulfillment of the Revelation that there will be earthquakes in diverse places at the time of the end when the prophecies of the earthquakes was only one part of the group of prophecies.. You need to see all the events happening one after another in one generation. Because Jesus said when you see all these things coming to pass know the end is near... So there will be a generation in the end times which will see all the signs in Matthew 24 happening in their life times...
The temple has been destroyed and rebuilt on more then one occasion and there is no reason why the Temple cannot be built again in the future. The temple may be rebuild 5 more time and destroyed 5 more times before the generation that will see all the signs in Matthew 24 see all the signs foretold by Jesus happening in their life times.
The temple has been destroyed and rebuilt on more then one occasion and there is no reason why the Temple cannot be built again in the future. The temple may be rebuild 5 more time and destroyed 5 more times before the generation that will see all the signs in Matthew 24 see all the signs foretold by Jesus happening in their life times.
Let me just say, I completely disagree with your position about this place in the bible and I see no evidence that would convince me that it is correct... I have studied that position. In the book of Luke ,in particular, Jesus described in detail what happened in 70ad and when He said that it would happen in that generation that IS when it happened. I believe that Jesus was also describing the end of the age and His return. About the temple, how could ungodly jews build a temple of God, that is not possible. I suppose they could build a replica of the temple but it could never be a temple of God.
Luke 20-21
45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.
21 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said,
I think he is addressing the disciples though.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
It makes no sense unless he is talking to those of the Church
45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.
21 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said,
I think he is addressing the disciples though.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
It makes no sense unless he is talking to those of the Church