What causes God to hide his face?

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Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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Yep, you are referring to the inductive method. :)

Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I thought that you were looking at it in a negative way. I guess I read too fast. I was in a hurry when I read it. I thought you said that you get preconceived notions when you use the inductive method. Sorry about that!

And I agree, studying the bible opened up a whole new way of studying and understanding what God is saying in His word. What He's saying and not how someone else interprets it for you. I love it! I haven't studied to rapture topic yet though.


 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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??? Miscommunication???

Willie says that that method helped him break free of preconcieved notions...he never described it...but nice summary of the method desert_rose.
Total miscommunication! Thanks for helping out there. :) It's a good lesson for me to not read a post and reply when I'm in a hurry to get errands done.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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Yep, you are referring to the inductive method. :)

Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I thought that you were looking at it in a negative way. I guess I read too fast. I was in a hurry when I read it. I thought you said that you get preconceived notions when you use the inductive method. Sorry about that!

And I agree, studying the bible opened up a whole new way of studying and understanding what God is saying in His word. What He's saying and not how someone else interprets it for you. I love it! I haven't studied to rapture topic yet though.


People often cannot believe I sometimes read a book as many as 6 or 7 times.... and s-l-o-w-l-y, to make sure I fully understand everything trying to be said.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
People often cannot believe I sometimes read a book as many as 6 or 7 times.... and s-l-o-w-l-y, to make sure I fully understand everything trying to be said.
Yeah I feel kind of slow cuz I read something 5 or 6 times and still don't feel like I totally understand.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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I also try to use common sense. For instance, with Matthew 24 (you can go read it), I find myself putting on my sandals, and imagining what and why the disciples asked a question..... and whether, or not Jesus would launch into a far-off explanation of something that would occur 2,000 years off into the dim future, and pertain to something the disciples didn't even imagine was going to possibly happen, let alone ASK about.

I also try to understand the idioms and hyperbole commonly used in their language and writing. If we try to apply our standard of understanding to THEIR times, we will end up so confused that it might actually become impossible for us to have any idea what they meant.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
I agree that people can believe whatever they choose. People can believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if they want.

From what I can see - which of course is what I base my belief on - the scriptures are very clear in regards to Christ's eternal salvation but if others want to believe they lose salvation somehow or other - then that is their individual choice.

If people fear that they will lose their salvation - then it is a sign that they have not been perfected in love yet - because fear involves punishment - losing one's salvation is punishment. I just state what I believe the scriptures are saying and whether people have fear or not is none of my business. I leave that in the Lord's hands....:)

I still believe that Christians are saved from the wrath of God on sin because of what Jesus did. He purchased us with His blood and in Him we have redemption. But if others want to doubt that - that is their individual choice..:).
I guess that thought could explain the different reaction to the phrase "God hides His face".

It doesn't cross my mind that God is ever gonna stop loving and caring for me. Perhaps when I was younger, I was worried, but events in my life has shown how God has taken care of me. Plus He has given me faith enough to know that when I die, I will be with Him. We are all in different parts of our faith journey and I can look back at a time when I wasn't sure. Even at a time when I was in open rebellion and defiance, but God lead me back to Him.

I still believe there are moments in a believer's life when God turns His face from us.

He doesn't have to look at us to be paying attention.

Even us flawed parents can figure out what our kids are doing just by listening to their conversation.

So what happens when God turns His face from the world?

I think examining that chapter could help us understand.
 
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Yeah I feel kind of slow cuz I read something 5 or 6 times and still don't feel like I totally understand.
Remember, it sometimes took the authors several YEARS to write their books. We should never try to understand all they meant to say in a few hours one evening.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Isaiah 59

Again the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord delivered them into the hand of the Philistines for forty years.

For your hands are defiled with blood,
And your fingers with iniquity;
Your lips have spoken lies,
Your tongue has muttered perversity.
No one calls for justice,
Nor does any plead for truth.
They trust in empty words and speak lies;
They conceive evil and bring forth iniquity.
They hatch vipers’ eggs and weave the spider's web;
He who eats of their eggs dies,
And from that which is crushed a viper breaks out.
Their webs will not become garments,
Nor will they cover themselves with their works;
Their works are works of iniquity,
And the act of violence is in their hands.
Their feet run to evil,
And they make haste to shed innocent blood;
Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity;
Wasting and destruction are in their paths.
The way of peace they have not known,
And there is no justice in their ways;
They have made themselves crooked paths;
Whoever takes that way shall not know peace.

Therefore justice is far from us,
Nor does righteousness overtake us;
We look for light, but there is darkness!
For brightness, but we walk in blackness!
We grope for the wall like the blind,
And we grope as if we had no eyes;
We stumble at noonday as at twilight;
We are as dead men in desolate places.
We all growl like bears,
And moan sadly like doves;
We look for justice, but there is none;
For salvation, but it is far from us.
For our transgressions are multiplied before You,
And our sins testify against us;
For our transgressions are with us,
And as for our iniquities, we know them:
In transgressing and lying against the Lord,
And departing from our God,
Speaking oppression and revolt,
Conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
Justice is turned back,
And righteousness stands afar off;
For truth is fallen in the street,
And equity cannot enter.

So truth fails, And he who departs from evil makes himself a prey.
note this all happens when God's face is turned away from the world. However the suffering of an innocent righteous person can call God's attention back to the situation. Its a line that the wicked cross and God says enough as is evident in the next half of the chapter.

Then the Lord saw it, and it displeased Him **That there was no justice. He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him. For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, And a helmet of salvation on His head;
 
Feb 7, 2015
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I guess that thought could explain the different reaction to the phrase "God hides His face".

It doesn't cross my mind that God is ever gonna stop loving and caring for me. Perhaps when I was younger, I was worried, but events in my life has shown how God has taken care of me. Plus He has given me faith enough to know that when I die, I will be with Him. We are all in different parts of our faith journey and I can look back at a time when I wasn't sure. Even at a time when I was in open rebellion and defiance, but God lead me back to Him.

I still believe there are moments in a believer's life when God turns His face from us.

He doesn't have to look at us to be paying attention.

Even us flawed parents can figure out what our kids are doing just by listening to their conversation.

So what happens when God turns His face from the world?

I think examining that chapter could help us understand.
I'm pretty sure God never said He turned His face fron the whole WORLD. Usually, it is only said that He turned from the nation of Israel.... and that was just for a period of time. Remember, they lived under a special contract with Him.
 
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pottersclay

Guest
Here is what I am talking about:

Inductive Bible Study
Introduction
The Inductive Bible study method is applicable to every level from individual study, to leading a small group, to every level of Bible teaching from children’s Sunday School to the main message coming from the pulpit.
Its goal is to provide a framework by which you can hear God speaking through His Word and make personal application to your life. It’s how one becomes a doer of the Word and not just a listener. This brief introduction is essential to understanding Walk with the Word’s perspective and approach to providing Bible studies and related materials to all levels of ministry. There are many books and web sites devoted to this topic that will provide much more detail. This discussion is provided as an overview.
At its simplest, the Inductive method employs three basic techniques:
• Observation
• Interpretation
• Application
Observation
Observation teaches you to see what the passage says and is the basis for accurate interpretation and correct application. It is vitally important to understand the context of the Scripture being studied and to not pull the words or sentences away from their true meaning. Observation answers the question, “What does the passage say?”
You don’t have to earn a degree in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic to figure out the correct context of any portion of Scripture. (It can’t hurt, either.) But it’s essential that you keep in mind that language changes over time, and that speech patterns, writing styles, communication methods differ during the course of our own lifetime, much less over 2,000 years and many, many cultural hand-offs. The observation techniques that follow allow you to glean what is being said in the proper context as you study.
Begin with Prayer
If you want to “hear” what God has to say to you personally, you really need to enter into 2-way communication. Prayer begins the “conversation” and places your mind, heart and soul in the right relationship with Him.
Ask the 5 W's and an H
The hardest thing to do is ridding ourselves of assumptions when we approach God’s Word, whether it’s a book (“Revelation is nothing but symbols and allegories.”) or a familiar passage (“1 Corinthians 13 is all I need to know about ‘love. ’”). Presuppositions are the most common culprits leading to wrong interpretation and mis-application. Carefully observing who, what, when, where, why and how are the best assurances leading to correct interpretation. DON’T RUSH PAST THIS. Doing this on a chapter-by-chapter basis consistently places the paragraphs, sentences, and words in their proper context.
• WHO is speaking? Who is this about? Who are the main characters? To whom is he speaking?
• WHAT is the subject or event covered in the chapter? What do you learn about the people, event, or teaching?
• WHEN do/will the events occur or did/will something happen to someone in particular?
• WHERE did or will this happen? Where was it said?
• WHY is something being said or mentioned? Why would/will this happen? Why at that time and/or to this person/people?
• HOW will it happen? How is it to be done? How is it illustrated?
Mark Key Words and Phrases
A key word or phrase is one which, when removed, leaves the passage void of meaning. They are often repeated by the author throughout a chapter or book in order to reveal the point or purpose of the writing.
However you decide to mark such things in your Bible, determine to be consistent in your use of colors, symbols, or a combination of both throughout in order to capture important themes that transcend just a single passage of Scripture. (e.g., “love”, “covenant”, “sin”, “grace”, etc.)
Pay attention to pronouns (“he”, “she”, “we”, “they”, “I”, “you”, “it”, “our”, etc.) as they often indicate a change of direction or emphasis. (e.g., when it changes from “He” says to “you” say.) And note synonyms which are different ways of referring to the same person, place, or thing. For instance, there are many names for “God”, several names for “Jerusalem”, and so on. These often hint at different character traits of the same entity, trying to teach us a little more about it.

Look for Lists
Trivia Time: In movies, books and everyday speech people often refer to “The Seven Deadly Sins” – where did that come from? One of Paul’s epistles. (Looking it up would be good for you.) Lists are often additional words used to describe a key word, but are also what is said about someone or something or related thoughts/instructions grouped together.
Lists are something you should develop as you study a particular topic throughout the Bible such as “grace”. Listing the characteristics of grace as provided by each use throughout Scripture will provide you with a much broader view of the whole meaning of grace. Such a list allows you see the bigger picture and avoid incorrectly interpreting it on the basis of just one Scripture in and of itself. Lists are the building blocks to developing something usually described in the much more intimidating terms “doctrine” and “theology”.
Yes, keeping lists of the important topics provides you with the basis for personalizing doctrines and theologies that follow from studying a theme across the entire Bible. Essentially you are placing the foundation layers of your faith into their right and proper context.
Watch for Contrasts and Comparisons
A contrast is a comparison of things that are different or opposite, such as light/darkness, proud/humble, good/evil. The word but often indicates a contrast to something just stated.
A comparison points out similarities and is most often indicated in the use of words such as like, as, as it were.
These small words are great eye-openers in the process of observation as they set the words on either side of them into their proper context.
Identify Terms of Conclusion
Wherefore, therefore, for this reason, and finally are terms of conclusion that usually follow an important thought in order to tell you how to personally apply the teaching. They’re a bridge between the “teaching” and the “application” and often clearly spell out the proper meaning and context of the passage with no guesswork as to what it means.


Develop Your Own Chapter Themes
The printed chapter themes in most Bibles are more of an aid for finding a specific story or passage such as “Jesus Heals a Blind Man”; they’re not very descriptive of the spiritual topic or theme that reveal the lessons God is directing to your heart. Nearly every Bible translation is available without such markings, usually in a “wide margin” edition conducive to making personal notes. The New Inductive Study Bible by Harvest House Publishers, for instance, builds this into several versions and even provides a place at the end of every book to record your personal chapter headings in order to see patterns and development of themes. But this can also easily be maintained on a separate sheet of paper.
Note Expressions of Time
This is often the most-overlooked part of observation. A crucial part of attaining the correct context is understanding when something has/is/will happen.
Time is often directly indicated such as “during the reign of”, “on the tenth day”, “at the feast of”, etc., etc. Sometimes the context is as much about when, or its relationship to a past or present event, as it is the person, place, or thing mentioned.
Pay attention to words such as until, then, when, and after as they reveal the relationship of one event to another. This is of particular importance when studying the Gospels as you will begin to see that Jesus’ acts and miracles are often an extension of the teaching He gave just before or after them. Throughout the Bible these words help connect actions with teaching in the proper context.
These are the fundamentals and, to be sure, there are added guidelines for the proper observation applied to some of the different types of literature provided throughout the Bible such as psalms, songs, parables, allegories, etc. But this will serve as the baseline throughout. Proper observation takes the guesswork out of interpretation and application. As stated previously, don’t rush through observation because you want to get to interpretation or application more quickly. The latter are only properly achieved through patient and thorough observation.
Interpretation
Interpretation answers the question, “What does the passage mean?” Tons of books and web sites are available on this topic–not to mention hundreds of institutions providing degrees in related fields–so these are the basic rules. But don’t let anyone intimidate you in following their steps; God makes His knowledge and will known to ANYONE who seeks. (There’s a good topic for you to keep track of throughout your studies.)
1. Context ALWAYS rules first. Never take a Scripture out of its context to make it say what you want it to say. Look at context first from the perspective of the book being studied, the overall chapter, the paragraph, and the sentence. Try to stay away from giving individual words meanings that reinterpret sentences, paragraphs, and onward up.
2. Always seek the FULL counsel of God’s Word. Never accept someone’s teaching based on one or two verses; ensure that they’re not taken out of context as they’re employed throughout the whole Bible.
3. Scripture never contradicts Scripture. It’s amazing how the best interpreter of Scripture is other Scripture. One of the best study aids is a good Bible dictionary which will show words and concepts as they’re presented throughout ALL of Scripture. This is often the best use of footnotes in your Bible that indicate other verses utilizing the same words or phrases in other places so you can compare and contrast how it’s used in many passages.
4. Never base a belief or conviction on an obscure passage of Scripture. You can always ask other Believers, go to Bible dictionaries or commentaries, or submit it to God in prayer and await His direction.
5. Interpret Scripture literally. Obviously there are no dragons and the Bible uses it and other symbols. But these are far and away the exceptions in the Bible as the vast majority are very, very literal. Beware of false teachers who teach that all the Bible is but allegory, such as Jonah and the big fish, or the Garden of Eden, etc., etc. These and all events, places and things in the Bible are real and not allegory. God is very clear in Scripture when He uses allegory, parables, or other literary devices to communicate His Word.
6. Look for the single meaning of the passage. Let the passage speak for itself. Seek to understand what the author had in mind. Flee from those that teach about things such as “Bible codes” or try to twist Scripture to support a meaning it never had in the first place. Making something complicated is usually an outward sign of someone that is going to great lengths to justify some kind of sin in their life or the choices they’ve made. Always remember that allegories and typology always illuminate what is already present in Scripture – they never create something new on their own.

Application
Application answers the question, “What does it mean to me personally? What truths can I put into practice? What changes should I make to my life?”
Paul states in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” Paul provides the activities involved in application: Teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness.
• Teaching is what the Word of God has to say on any topic or subject and is always true. Once you discover what the Word of God teaches, you are obligated before God to accept that truth and to live by it, dropping any false beliefs or teachings you may have previously held.
• Reproof is finding out where you have thought or behaved wrongly or have not been doing what God says is right according to His Word. It’s your personal acknowledgment that you were wrong in thought or behavior and now accept and agree with God’s truth, setting you free from sin and unbelief.
• Correction is the step wherein the knowledge gained from teaching and reproof are placed into action resulting in changed behavior. It’s converting knowledge into obedience.
• Training in righteousness can be thought of in terms of God’s Word as a handbook for living, for how we conduct ourselves. It’s continually returning to the source and consistently putting into practice the reproofs and corrections of His Word to build our character in Him.
In seeking to apply Scripture to your life, ask the following questions in light of your observation and interpretation:
1. What does the passage teach?
2. As I’ve studied this passage, do any errors in my belief or problems with my behavior come to mind?
3. Remembering that God is my Father and I am His child, what instruction is my Father trying to pass to me, His child?
Finally, in the process of applying Scripture, take note to beware of the following:
• Applying cultural standards rather than biblical standards
• Attempting to strengthen a legitimate truth by using Scripture incorrectly
• Applying Scripture out of prejudice from past training or teaching

Conclusion
• Observation, interpretation, and application lead to transformation. This is the goal at every level of Bible teaching whether in an individual’s daily devotions or the Sunday morning sermon. This is the process of becoming more and more like the image of Christ that we might not only enjoy a deeper personal relationship with our Savior but reflect His image to the world rather than our own.
• Or as Christ described it, becoming doers of the Law.
• Ultimately, it you want to measure whether or not your Bible study time and method is effective or not, there is one measurement which conclusively proves it for you personally regardless of the techniques or methodology you employ. Remember two things Jesus taught:
• “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 13:34-35
• “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.”
John 14:15
• The whole Law is fulfilled in Christ’s commandment to love others and the proof of our love for Him is found in the quality of our obedience to His Word. Therefore, if we are putting His Word into practice in our life and being obedient to Him, the proof that our Bible study method is working will be revealed in our relationships with other people.
• If we are becoming more loving, the Word is taking root as it should and therefore our Bible study method is working. But if we are the most intellectual Bible scholar on the planet yet continue to struggle in our love for others, our Bible study method is an utter failure. The proof is the degree that our relationships begin to change over time.

I just stare at the pictures. There worth a thousand words ya know:D
 
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Ariel82

Guest
The Gospel is for the world so some things that were only for Israel applies to the whole world now as well.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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The Gospel is for the world so some things that were only for Israel applies to the whole world now as well.
That is where using that Inductive Method comes into play.......... To whom are each of the individual verses you read, addressed? "For God so loved THE WORLD." You can avoid a lot of trouble if you first distinguish the 5 W's and the H.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Examining the OT helps answer the question: why does God allow evil to exist in the world?
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Like 13
And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Israel think they are special just because of their blood and many Christians agree, but I don't.

Israel is only special because of Jesus, because the promise was to the Seed not seeds.

Just because they have the blood of Moses or Abraham doesn't meant they are God's chosen people. Jesus called some of them Satan's spawn. Others He called His Apostles and brothers and sisters.
 
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When we read Gen 3, we find God seeking Adam/Eve and Adam/Eve hiding from Him and covering themselves with aprons they sewed (vs 7).

Then we see God clothing them with skins, which required the death of an animal (vs 21).

God sought out Adam and Eve, provided a covering for them. As all mankind was still in the loins of Adam/Eve at that time, is this imagery which reveals God's desire to cover the sin of all mankind?

And yet, only those who come to God in humble submission to His provision for mankind will be rewarded with eternal life.

Sadly, some will not submit, they will continue to make themselves aprons in an effort to cover themselves, and will receive the recompense of their error.

So who hides from Whom?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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I agree that people can believe whatever they choose. People can believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation if they want.

From what I can see - which of course is what I base my belief on - the scriptures are very clear in regards to Christ's eternal salvation but if others want to believe they lose salvation somehow or other - then that is their individual choice.

If people fear that they will lose their salvation - then it is a sign that they have not been perfected in love yet - because fear involves punishment - losing one's salvation is punishment. I just state what I believe the scriptures are saying and whether people have fear or not is none of my business. I leave that in the Lord's hands....:)

I still believe that Christians are saved from the wrath of God on sin because of what Jesus did. He purchased us with His blood and in Him we have redemption. But if others want to doubt that - that is their individual choice..:).
They base their belief on scripture too, just as you do. And they really know why they believe as they do. They believe almost as you do but they believe that God will cut off unbelieving branches just as He first saved Israel but then was displeased at their unbelief later. I don't think what they have to say is like goofy and Donald duck. I respect them just as I respect you. There are Holy Spirit led men who believe as you and Holy Spirit led men who believe as them. And some of them once believed as you do but then changed their mind because of many scriptures.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Genesis 3 isn't an example of God hiding His face. So it's like discussing apples and oranges.

I agree we often hide from God in shame and we should not.

I just wonder if God still hides His face from people today?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I guess that thought could explain the different reaction to the phrase "God hides His face".

It doesn't cross my mind that God is ever gonna stop loving and caring for me. Perhaps when I was younger, I was worried, but events in my life has shown how God has taken care of me. Plus He has given me faith enough to know that when I die, I will be with Him. We are all in different parts of our faith journey and I can look back at a time when I wasn't sure. Even at a time when I was in open rebellion and defiance, but God lead me back to Him.

I still believe there are moments in a believer's life when God turns His face from us.


He doesn't have to look at us to be paying attention.

Even us flawed parents can figure out what our kids are doing just by listening to their conversation.

So what happens when God turns His face from the world?

I think examining that chapter could help us understand.
I understand what you are saying but what is high-lighted in brown above - it doesn't fit with Hebrews where it says to come boldly to the throne of grace to find mercy and help in time of need.

When we have messed up - that is the very time we are told to come "boldly" to the throne of God.

If we think He is turning away from us - who would go to the throne then? It just doesn't jive with "God turns His face from believers".

I think whenever we try to interpret the Old Covenant ways that God interacted with Israel and try to put those same things into the New Covenant which is based on better promises and based on the blood of Jesus - we can water down the work of Christ. Then we can get ideas that God is turning His face away from His beloved children. Humans with our own ways and thoughts are not like God's ways and thoughts.

I just don't buy it myself that God turns His face away from us believers that are in Christ. How would He do it? We are joined as one spirit with Him. We have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God.

But people are free to think how they want too on some subjects and I am not trying to correct you - I just can't fathom even the idea of it myself but I do understand where the thought that God hides His face from us - is coming from - as I grew up in a Pentecostal background that taught that very thing....perhaps it is taught in other denominations too?...I don't know.. :)
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Genesis 3 isn't an example of God hiding His face. So it's like discussing apples and oranges.
True. Apologies for not staying on track. :)



Ariel82 said:
I agree we often hide from God in shame and we should not.
Yeah. When my kids were little and misbehaved and then tried to hide from me or my husband ... on the one hand it was kind of comical. On the other hand, kind of sad that they feared mom/dad. And yet, that is what we do with God, even though we know enough of Scripture to know that nothing we do is hid from Him. We need to get to the point where we openly come to Him when we realize we've wronged Him. Hebrews 4:15 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. And the sooner the better! And the word "boldly" means freedom in speaking, unreservedness in speech. Just lay our hearts bare before Him and don't try to hide anything.


Ariel82 said:
I just wonder if God still hides His face from people today?
I think we think He does because sometimes we don't feel Him near. But I believe that's because we've turned from Him, rather than Him turning from us. And, in all reality, even though there are verses in OT which indicate God hid His face, there are also many, many verses in OT which indicate once people return to Him after they've strayed, He is within reach. So, did He really turn His face? Or did He just withhold/withdraw His goodness for a season, while watching for His people to return (like the father in the parable in Luke)?