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Thread: What causes God to hide his face?

  1. #121
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    And what was the singular "punishment" the Bible decreed for sin?

    There was only one thing. Nothing more.

    It was no more than death. And that is what Jesus came to do..... simply to die...................... BUT, before He died, Satan thought he saw his big chance to actually MAKE Jesus (God) sin, itself.

    Jesus gladly accepted this..... and then He (as our sin) died. All our sin had jumped on Jesus. And He accepted and held onto that sin that stupidly jumped onto Him. And ALL OUR SIN died as Him and with Him, and went to the grave when He went to the grave..... unable to come back out again, because only the original Jesus was resurrected.
    Willie, I am one of the few here who hold to the fact that the wages of sin is death. Are you also an annihilationist?


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  2. #122
    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Jesus wasn't experiencing "punishment from God" on that cross. He was experiencing all the horrible feelings we went through before we surrendered that part of us, and what we still go through because we often won't let go of sin....... And not just our horrid emotions, but those of billions of people who have and will live on the Earth.

    Simple 'death' wasn't the anguish. Rather, it was becoming sin, and not letting the alien enemy — sin — get back out of Him.... until He could take it to the grave with Him, and leave it there.
    Last edited by Willie-T; January 11th, 2017 at 03:22 PM.
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  3. #123
    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Jesus came to defeat and destroy sin..... NOT to have God (actually, Himself) beat the Hell out of Him (Himself).
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  4. #124
    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Willie, I am one of the few here who hold to the fact that the wages of sin is death. Are you also an annihilationist?
    I've heard so many definitions of so many labels, I really couldn't say.
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  5. #125
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    Jesus wasn't experiencing "punishment from God" on that cross. He was experiencing all the horrible feelings we went through before we surrendered that part of us, and what we still go through because we often won't let go of sin....... And not just our horrid emotions, but those of billions of people who have and will live on the Earth.

    Simple 'death' wasn't the anguish. Rather, it was becoming sin, and not letting the alien enemy of sin get back out of Him.
    If sin is still in the world then Jesus did not take it to the grave to be gone forever as you seemed to say just minutes ago. Some people say Satan is bound now, too. I am not one of them. I also thought Jesus was resurrected in a glorified body. Isn't that why He was unrecognizable to those who actually knew Him best? Are we not also to be given new bodies when we pass from death to life, when the mortal is clothed in immortality (rather kills the belief that the soul is already immortal as many teach) and the corruptible puts on the incorruptible?

    I would like to see some of the many Scriptures you say exist denying
    God's wrath fell upon Jesus. Still, He said it for our benefit, right?



    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

  6. #126
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    I've heard so many definitions of so many labels, I really couldn't say.
    Does the nonbeliever pass into the second death following judgement, or are they tortured forever after?


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

  7. #127
    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Look at it from Satan's eyes:

    "That fool, Jesus, thought these simple humans would accept Him. But, LOOK, they are actually murdering Him. How dumb of Him to trust them. NOW is my chance to take over, by BECOMING Him.... even though He has resisted and thwarted me for 33 years. Go get Him Boys! Every single one of you go right into His body and mind. Take over. BECOME God!"

    Sort of the way some people have underestimated a certain human being recently, Satan underestimated God for a second time. He thought he had Him. That He was defeated, down and out. But God elected Him King and Savior.

    A poor analogy, but quite illustrative. LOL
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  8. #128
    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Does the nonbeliever pass into the second death following judgement, or are they tortured forever after?
    Since most of what we understand of "judgement" comes from Second-Temple Judaism's inculcation and adoption of a never-before-imagined Egyptian theology of the afterlife (something the Jews didn't even consider in their original worship of God), I would have to say all I really know is that whatever is beyond death is what God planned for me (us) from before the beginning of time.
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    “True eloquence consists of saying all that is necessary, and only that which is .” François Duc De La Rochefoucauld
    I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus.

  9. #129
    Senior Member BeyondET's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    I ask sincerely. Show me that I may change my view if I am wrong,
    that I may in future have a better more correct way of presenting it.
    Show where the scripture says God brought wrath upon His Son, it doesn't say it like that at all, now some take some verses and assume it means that like these below but that's not what it's saying..

    as Jesus died
    The wrath of God was satisfied
    For every sin on him was laid
    Here in the death of Christ I live

    Or this one that says saved from the wrath of God through Jesus..

    Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! Rom 5:9

    I know some people have been turned off from the gospel because they thought God killed Jesus. Never mind that Jesus said: “No one takes my life from me, but I lay it down of my own accord” (John 10:18).
    Ariel82 and Grace777x70 like this.

  10. #130
    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Give me a couple more days Magenta, and I will have some thoughts ready to send you in book form. I have about a hundred more pages to get properly formatted.
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    I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus.

  11. #131
    Senior Member FreeNChrist's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondET View Post
    I like that indeed, not sure why people think Jesus was here only in human flesh form but yet his mind wasn't and didn't have a need to ponder on things while in such pain...
    Not sure you are getting the meaning of the phrase. It speaks to Jesus assuming all of the consequences of man's sin in order to heal all.
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondET View Post
    One more thing to ponder on IMO,

    If God had abandoned him forsake him on the cross, then who was Jesus talking too when He cried out??? If God had abandoned him/ turned away then Jesus would have known that and would have said nothing... So IMO he was speaking to God who was right there the whole time..
    Wait that isn't logical. Who was David taking to when he plead with God to turn His face back to him?

    The phrase doesn't imply that God was no longer present but that He no longer had the hedge of protect from the enemy and allowed Satan's attack upon Jesus to deceive people and have Him crucified.


    So when God "turns His face from us" he allows the enemy to attack and allows certain test to happen like Job.

    This does not mean we are guilty of sin, but it does help grow our faith to yield fruits like patience and righteousness. Perhaps not just ours but others who watch as we grow and stand strong in the Lord.

    Would you still love God if you felt His presence was absent or would you get drunk with your friends and beat your servants?
    BeyondET likes this.

  13. #133
    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    If sin is still in the world then Jesus did not take it to the grave to be gone forever as you seemed to say just minutes ago. Some people say Satan is bound now, too. I am not one of them. I also thought Jesus was resurrected in a glorified body. Isn't that why He was unrecognizable to those who actually knew Him best? Are we not also to be given new bodies when we pass from death to life, when the mortal is clothed in immortality (rather kills the belief that the soul is already immortal as many teach) and the corruptible puts on the incorruptible?

    I would like to see some of the many Scriptures you say exist denying
    God's wrath fell upon Jesus. Still, He said it for our benefit, right?

    Yes, sin is still in the world. Jesus didn't take Satan and the influence and temptation to sin to the grave. He took the ruling dominance over, and consequence of, the sin of anyone who would believe He did that. Satan is still right here tempting and hoping to get people NOT to trust in what Jesus did. Sometimes he seems to be successful in keep many from accepting what was already done for them.
    Ariel82 and Magenta like this.
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  14. #134
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    Since most of what we understand of "judgement" comes from Second-Temple Judaism's inculcation and adoption of a never-before-imagined Egyptian theology of the afterlife (something the Jews didn't even consider in their original worship of God), I would have to say all I really know is that whatever is beyond death is what God planned for me (us) from before the beginning of time.
    I stand by God being loving, just, and merciful. Jesus promised life ever after to those who believe on Him. All of Scripture testifies of Him. He created everything for Himself, for His own glory. He holds the keys to life and death. Abraham saw the day of Jesus and was glad. It would be quite a, oh what is the word? Um, atheists love it haha. The dissonance, is it intellectual dissonance? Abraham had already been promised numerous descendants through Isaac. Do you think he believed in a resurrection? Certainly some believed in a resurrection through Him. It is why He tarried when Lazarus fell ill, so Jesus could call him out of the grave, four days after his passing, and have more come to belief, and wasn't it the week before He Himself was to be put to death? When were the Psalms written? Psalm 49:15 God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me.


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  15. #135
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondET View Post
    Show where the scripture says God brought wrath upon His Son, it doesn't say it like that at all, now some take some verses and assume it means that like these below but that's not what it's saying..

    as Jesus died
    The wrath of God was satisfied
    For every sin on him was laid
    Here in the death of Christ I live

    Or this one that says saved from the wrath of God through Jesus..

    Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! Rom 5:9

    I know some people have been turned off from the gospel because they thought God killed Jesus. Never mind that Jesus said: “No one takes my life from me, but I lay it down of my own accord” (John 10:18).
    Yes, and Jesus is God, so some say He committed suicide. But I don't care what non-believers say here and now, when I am asking for the Scriptures that explicitly state the wrath of God did not fall upon Jesus. Jesus asks at one point, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? True He was addressing the religious leaders whom He viewed as a den of vipers etc but the wrath of God is a well known tread on the wheel of Scriptural Truths. I am not one of those who purports that God is going to torture and torment forever after those who refuse Him. When you get right down to it, how could anyone come face to face with God and refuse Him? The demonic influence would have to be so strong to hold such sway. Yes, Jesus' blood saves us from the wrath of God as the verse you provided from Romans so clearly puts forth. I never said Scripture says the wrath of God fell on Him, but I was just told that plenty of Scriptures say otherwise. I have not been provided one yet.


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

  16. #136
    Senior Member BeyondET's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    Wait that isn't logical. Who was David taking to when he plead with God to turn His face back to him?

    The phrase doesn't imply that God was no longer present but that He no longer had the hedge of protect from the enemy and allowed Satan's attack upon Jesus to deceive people and have Him crucified.


    So when God "turns His face from us" he allows the enemy to attack and allows certain test to happen like Job.

    This does not mean we are guilty of sin, but it does help grow our faith to yield fruits like patience and righteousness. Perhaps not just ours but others who watch as we grow and stand strong in the Lord.

    Would you still love God if you felt His presence was absent or would you get drunk with your friends and beat your servants?
    Your talking about David who wasn't sinless as Jesus was so that comparison is not logical... A prime example on context context matters even in the bible..

  17. #137
    Senior Member BeyondET's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Yes, and Jesus is God, so some say He committed suicide. But I don't care what non-believers say here and now, when I am asking for the Scriptures that explicitly state the wrath of God did not fall upon Jesus. Jesus asks at one point, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? True He was addressing the religious leaders whom He viewed as a den of vipers etc but the wrath of God is a well known tread on the wheel of Scriptural Truths. I am not one of those who purports that God is going to torture and torment forever after those who refuse Him. When you get right down to it, how could anyone come face to face with God and refuse Him? The demonic influence would have to be so strong to hold such sway. Yes, Jesus' blood saves us from the wrath of God as the verse you provided from Romans so clearly puts forth. I never said Scripture says the wrath of God fell on Him, but I was just told that plenty of Scriptures say otherwise. I have not been provided one yet.
    It's quite simple scripture doesn't say God did not bring wrath upon Jesus nor does it say he did that's the point.. Your listening to what you have learned through the hearing of others...

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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen63 View Post
    God has literal back parts & no face? What chapter & verse is that?
    Ex 33:17-23
    17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
    18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
    19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
    20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
    21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
    22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
    23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
    KJV


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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondET View Post
    Your talking about David who wasn't sinless as Jesus was so that comparison is not logical... A prime example on context context matters even in the bible..
    Well...just trying to discuss the phrase. Not sure if I would agree or disagree that God turned His face from Christ on the Cross....kind of a side topic.

    More interested in understanding what David meant by "God turning his face from me" and if it happens to us today.

  20. #140
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: What causes God to hide his face?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondET View Post
    It's quite simple scripture doesn't say God did not bring wrath upon Jesus nor does it say he did that's the point.. Your listening to what you have learned through the hearing of others...
    I was just told there were lots of Scriptures saying that the wrath of God did not fall on Jesus. If there are none that actually say that, okay. Jesus became sin for us. Does the wrath of God not fall upon sin? It makes sense to me that it does. Jesus took the punishment for sin upon Himself; He Who knew no sin became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God.

    On another somewhat related note, people have been talking about God hating this or that thing, including people who work iniquity, and bringing up Esau and Jacob, Esau have I hated etc God decided this before the boys were born... but could not hate simply be a removal of love? In the same way that darkness is the lack of light. When God removes His love from the equation of anyone's existence, what is one left in the presence of? Darkness, and workers of iniquity, and the forces that work to see such things brought to pass. How grateful we all shall be when those forces are finally laid to rest, in the lake of fire, where even our works that do not align with the will and purposes of God shall be burnt away. Neither shall there be need for a planetary body to cast light upon us! For the Light that is the true Light shall be among us. I cannot help but look forward to that time, when sin and death no longer beset us.


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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