Is It Possible To Backslide

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dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#241
Dec 12, 2013
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#241
Stunnedbygrace said:
So then I'm back to where I was again. Moses was disobedient and couldn't enter the promised land and they were disobedient and couldn't enter the promised land. But all were not affected as to their ultimate outcome? (That's a question. :))
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Their sin and disobedience did not affect their salvation or lack thereof.......it did affect entering into the promised land which represents the rest that can be found in THIS life in a BELIEVER who is faithful........
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#242
Nov 12, 2015
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#242
So if their mistrust and disobedience did NOT affect the ultimate outcome of any of them, then this is how we arrive at: so all were ultimately saved?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#243
Dec 12, 2013
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#243
Stunnedbygrace said:
So if their mistrust and disobedience did NOT affect the ultimate outcome of any of them, then this is how we arrive at: so all were ultimately saved?
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That is not a plausible interpretation....there is no proof that they were all the saved children of God.....is every member of every church on the planet saved? Is every family member in a believer's home saved? The point is not abut eternal salvation and who was and who was not.......it is about entering into rest in this life as a believer.....in the same manner...a child of God is born of the spirit and their eternal destiny is sealed, after salvation comes a position and place of rest that can be found based upon faithfulness and obedience to the word......the Corinthian brother that Paul states to cut loose for the destruction of the FLESH is a prime example....HIS SPIRIT was till saved, but he was going to suffer the consequences of his sin in the flesh.....that is the point.......
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#244
Nov 12, 2015
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#244
dcontroversal said:
That is not a plausible interpretation....there is no proof that they were all the saved children of God.....is every member of every church on the planet saved? Is every family member in a believer's home saved? The point is not abut eternal salvation and who was and who was not.......it is about entering into rest in this life as a believer.....in the same manner...a child of God is born of the spirit and their eternal destiny is sealed, after salvation comes a position and place of rest that can be found based upon faithfulness and obedience to the word......the Corinthian brother that Paul states to cut loose for the destruction of the FLESH is a prime example....HIS SPIRIT was till saved, but he was going to suffer the consequences of his sin in the flesh.....that is the point.......
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I agree that there is no proof they all were saved.
And when you say a place of rest can be found based on faithfulness and obedience to the word, I also agree.
What I can't agree with is that the opposite of faithfulness and obedience has no bearing on ultimate outcome.

So my question is still there. If moses disobeyed and it didn't affect his ultimate outcome, and if they disobeyed and it DID affect their ultimate outcome, what causes this difference in their final destinations?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#245
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#245
Stunnedbygrace said:
I agree that there is no proof they all were saved.
And when you say a place of rest can be found based on faithfulness and obedience to the word, I also agree.
What I can't agree with is that the opposite of faithfulness and obedience has no bearing on ultimate outcome.

So my question is still there. If moses disobeyed and it didn't affect his ultimate outcome, and if they disobeyed and it DID affect their ultimate outcome, what causes this difference in their final destinations?
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Your mixing apples and oranges......

The children of Israel.....

a) ALL were delivered from Egypt by the striking of blood (Passover)
b) Not ALL were the saved children of GOD per se (KORAH and HIS band went ALIVE down into the pit)
c) ONLY 2 men over 20 entered the promise land (Joshua and Caleb)
d) ALL over 20 died in the wilderness due to disobedience and were not ALLOWED to enter into rest
e) ALL who were the children of GOD (such as MOSES) were received and had eternal life and will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection
f) ALL who were not the children of GOD are in hell awaiting the GREAT WHITE THRONE judgment and their eternal destiny

This is consistent with what the bible teaches........to try and surmise, guess who was saved and or not is impossible.....but one thing we know for sure.....

a) MOSES was KILLED for disobedience and NOT allowed to enter the promise land
b) I am the LORD thy GOD I change not and HE is no respecter of PEOPLE
c) MOSES stood on the MOUNT of transfiguration
d) BASED upon (B) I can rightfully conclude that ALL the saved who perished in the wilderness due to rebellion were STILL received just as MOSES was received...........and ALL who were LOST such as (KORAH and HIS BAND) will NOT make the 1st RESURRECTION...........
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#246
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#246
dcontroversal said:
Your mixing apples and oranges......

The children of Israel.....

a) ALL were delivered from Egypt by the striking of blood (Passover)
b) Not ALL were the saved children of GOD per se (KORAH and HIS band went ALIVE down into the pit)
c) ONLY 2 men over 20 entered the promise land (Joshua and Caleb)
d) ALL over 20 died in the wilderness due to disobedience and were not ALLOWED to enter into rest
e) ALL who were the children of GOD (such as MOSES) were received and had eternal life and will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection
f) ALL who were not the children of GOD are in hell awaiting the GREAT WHITE THRONE judgment and their eternal destiny

This is consistent with what the bible teaches........to try and surmise, guess who was saved and or not is impossible.....but one thing we know for sure.....

a) MOSES was KILLED for disobedience and NOT allowed to enter the promise land
b) I am the LORD thy GOD I change not and HE is no respecter of PEOPLE
c) MOSES stood on the MOUNT of transfiguration
d) BASED upon (B) I can rightfully conclude that ALL the saved who perished in the wilderness due to rebellion were STILL received just as MOSES was received...........and ALL who were LOST such as (KORAH and HIS BAND) will NOT make the 1st RESURRECTION...........
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What made moses a child of God and some others NOT a child of God?
Am really enjoying talking with you this morning, by the way. :)
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#247
Dec 12, 2013
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#247
Stunnedbygrace said:
What made moses a child of God and some others NOT a child of God?
Am really enjoying talking with you this morning, by the way. :)
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One can only surmise that it was by faith into the coming Messiah.....just like Abel, Abraham, Noah etc....`

English Standard Version
for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

Berean Study Bible
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

King James Bible
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

International Standard Version
For all of you are God's children through faith in the Messiah Jesus.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#248
Nov 12, 2015
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#248
That could be surmised I guess...
I wonder how that would happen since no one preached Christ to them...
And if no one preached Christ to them, they were guilty for not believing in Christ anyway...but if no one preached Him, it seems unfair that men would be expected to believe in Him.
It appears to me that they had to keep trusting God in all that He said and for daily provision, and that after He saved them, their subsequent lack of trust was what angered Him.

But because Christ was preached to us, our subsequent mistrust is not held against us as it was to them?
Does that sound right?
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#249
Nov 12, 2015
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#249
But wait...if, as you say, their mistrust had nothing to do with their ultimate destination, but only affected their temporal life here, then I am back to the question of why some will not be in heaven...
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#250
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#250
Stunnedbygrace said:
That could be surmised I guess...
I wonder how that would happen since no one preached Christ to them...
And if no one preached Christ to them, they were guilty for not believing in Christ anyway...but if no one preached Him, it seems unfair that men would be expected to believe in Him.
It appears to me that they had to keep trusting God in all that He said and for daily provision, and that after He saved them, their subsequent lack of trust was what angered Him.

But because Christ was preached to us, our subsequent mistrust is not held against us as it was to them?
Does that sound right?
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The key would be found in the statement.....the coming MESSIAH.....which had been predicted all the way back in Genesis 3:15.....One thing that is overlooked is the simple fact that they were under a conditional covenant....their blessing and or punishment was directly tied to their adherence to the law.....if they were faithful and followed the law they were blessed and prospered....if they rejected and walked contrary they were punished......the difference in the New Covenant is the fact that it is based upon the faithfulness and righteousness of Christ.....the O.T. proved that no man can live up to God's standard of righteousness completely (break one of the least of the commandments makes one guilty of the whole) under the New the righteousness of Christ is applied unto ALL who believe and the consequences of the law (punishment) have been nailed to the cross and are no longer immediately applied when one fails, sins or even falls into a rut of unfaithfulness.....this is not to say that we will not be whipped (chastisement) but rather we are given time a space to repent, get right and regardless of our stance.....our eternal state is secure in Christ!
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#251
Nov 12, 2015
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#251
So then, they got the short end of the stick.
They had to follow the law to be saved yet it was impossible to follow the law perfectly.
So they were doomed no matter what they did?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#253
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#253
Stunnedbygrace said:
So then, they got the short end of the stick.
They had to follow the law to be saved yet it was impossible to follow the law perfectly.
So they were doomed no matter what they did?
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No....again their salvation was not in question....their right to live in the land, be blessed and prospered is what was tied to their obedience.....
 
Stephen63

Stephen63

Banned
#254
Aug 15, 2009
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#254
This group believes there's no repentance after accepting Christ. The reason is God no longer convicts of sin after conversion.

Besides this, repentance is only changing of the mind, no remorse, no shame, no guilt.

Their "true repentance" is "making a decision" for Christ.

Then, they go on & say that when we accept Christ, we no longer want to sin, so we won't practice it.

But since we live in sinful flesh that wants to sin, what keeps us from doing that? We do, of course!

But hold on now..... we can't do anything on our own..... so how do we quit practicing sin?

Because the Holy Spirit won't let us..... because He convicts us of our sins..... oh, that's right, He doesn't do that anymore.

Then it's because we change our minds..... oh wait..... no conviction or repentance after conversion.

There must be something that curbs our fleshly sinning nature, but it just can't be the Holy Spirit.

Ya'know what? It must be grace..... that's it! But how does God's grace do anything without the Holy Spirit's intervention?

Maybe that grace works thru legalism..... no, grace believers don't believe in legalism..... no works can do it.

I'm out of excuses.:confused:

Maybe we're not saved in the first place..... They say that happens, so maybe that's it.:rolleyes:

They say we won't want to continue deliberately in sin, but they can't say how, except somehow thru grace that doesn't have the Holy Spirit involved.:rolleyes:
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#255
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#255
dcontroversal said:
No....again their salvation was not in question....their right to live in the land, be blessed and prospered is what was tied to their obedience.....
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If their salvation was not in question, then how is it that some of them won't be in heaven?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#256
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#256
Stunnedbygrace said:
If their salvation was not in question, then how is it that some of them won't be in heaven?
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What about the following is so difficult to understand....

a. Some were saved
b. Some were lost
c. The national condition (under the law) to ALL was to observe the law outwardly so as to live in the land and be blessed
d. The law was designed to point ALL to Christ (messiah)
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#257
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#257
Everything you say here is not what (this group) believes or practices....and to be honest....even though I have been guilty myself, I have yet to see you make a point without sarcasm directed at those who disagree with your self indulgent works for salvation....What part of...NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, AND NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST....don't you understand........ ;)

Stephen63 said:
This group believes there's no repentance after accepting Christ. The reason is God no longer convicts of sin after conversion.

Besides this, repentance is only changing of the mind, no remorse, no shame, no guilt.

Their "true repentance" is "making a decision" for Christ.

Then, they go on & say that when we accept Christ, we no longer want to sin, so we won't practice it.

But since we live in sinful flesh that wants to sin, what keeps us from doing that? We do, of course!

But hold on now..... we can't do anything on our own..... so how do we quit practicing sin?

Because the Holy Spirit won't let us..... because He convicts us of our sins..... oh, that's right, He doesn't do that anymore.

Then it's because we change our minds..... oh wait..... no conviction or repentance after conversion.

There must be something that curbs our fleshly sinning nature, but it just can't be the Holy Spirit.

Ya'know what? It must be grace..... that's it! But how does God's grace do anything without the Holy Spirit's intervention?

Maybe that grace works thru legalism..... no, grace believers don't believe in legalism..... no works can do it.

I'm out of excuses.:confused:

Maybe we're not saved in the first place..... They say that happens, so maybe that's it.:rolleyes:

They say we won't want to continue deliberately in sin, but they can't say how, except somehow thru grace that doesn't have the Holy Spirit involved.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#258
May 17, 2013
15,050
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113
#258
Stunnedbygrace said:
So then, they got the short end of the stick.
They had to follow the law to be saved yet it was impossible to follow the law perfectly.
So they were doomed no matter what they did?
Click to expand...
They got the law to show them they needed grace to be saved. Abraham was before the law and he was saved by grace through believing Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#260
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#260
notuptome said:
They got the law to show them they needed grace to be saved. Abraham was before the law and he was saved by grace through believing Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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This...this finally might sound like something good...
Could this be the answer we've been looking for?
They were saved by believing Gods' word?
This actually makes sense finally...
And if you believe His word, of course you will obey it...

They believed Him when He told them to put the blood on the doorposts and so they obeyed Him for saving, they believed Him when they were told to step out into the sea and so they obeyed Him for saving. They believed Him to save them and He did and they escaped their bondage.

But after He saved them through their trust of His word, in the desert, they...became faithless somehow. They stopped believing His word and they stopped trusting and obeying.

This...sounds like ME...I believed Him for my saving and He saved me. But why do I worry for my provision and about how my IRA has tanked? And if I will have enough for old age? Or how I will have a place to stay when I haven't been able to find a job? I believed Him for my saving but then became unbelieving just as Israel, when it came to something much simpler, like provision, just as Israel...!

I have repeated Israels mistake!
 
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