"Why Jesus is God!" Explanations for JW's

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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#1
In English, the order of the sentence generally determines the use of the noun. The subject usually comes first. However, in Greek, the word order is flexible, and is used for emphasis rather than for strict grammatical functions. For example, if there are two nouns and one has the definite article, it is the subject.

Word order is also employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally, if a word is thrown to the front of a clause or sentence, it is done so for emphasis. When the predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis.

A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. English versions usually say, “and the Word was God.” But in Greek, the word order is reversed.

Καί θεός ήν ό λόγος or (Kai theos en ho logos) literally below:
"And God was the Word"

We know that “the Word” ho logos (ό λόγος), is the subject, because it has the definite article and is in the nominative case and we translate it accordingly “and the Word was God.” It is sometimes called a "predicate nominative" in Greek.

Two questions, both of theological importance, come to mind
1. Why was θεός (theos or god) thrown forward, when it actually comes at the end of the sentence?
2. Why does Theos or God lack the article in Greek, or the word "the" in English?

The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.

John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism

To state this another way, let’s look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

1. καί ό λόγος ήν ό θεός
“and the Word was the God” Sabellianism*
2. καί ό λόγος ήν θεός
“and the Word was a god” Arianism+
3. καί θεός ήν ό ΄λόγος
“and the Word was God” Orthodoxy

(Number 2, is the translation the JW's use, being Arians. Besides being a wrong translation, it turns them into polytheists, with a BIG God (Almighty) and a small god (mighty).

Just to note, I had the JW's on my door step a few months back.I told them about my Greek studies, and I would love to have them come back so we could discuss the Greek and translations. They took off fast, and never came back! Sigh. I would not normally let them in my door, but I thought this would be a good time to discuss the Greek, which they did not want to hear! It might just work to say to JW missionaries, that you want to invite them in to discuss the Greek. You can copy and paste this post and the next, and discuss it with them, if they dare.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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#2
Another way John in his gospel refutes these early heretics, is the 7 “I am” statements!

“I am the bread of life” John 6:35
“I am the light of the world.” John 8:12
“I am the door” John 10:9
“I am the Good Shepherd” John 10:11
“I am the resurrection and the life.” John 11:25
“I am the way, the truth and the life” John 14:6
“I am the true vine, my Father is the vinedresser” John 15:1


Now, while these are all expressive and interesting word pictures, but how do they prove the deity of Christ?

Unfortunately, the Greek wording does not come out in any English translation that I am aware of. But the Greek is very important. The way to say, “I am” in Greek is εἰμί or eimi. Indeed, in each of the 7 “I am” verses I listed above, the word “I” or "ἐγώ” or ego is also included. Thus, in all 7 of these “I am” statements, John actually says, “ἐγώ ἐιμί” οr “I, I am.” So again, that is “ἐγώ ἐιμί.” Or just think “I, I am!” But even that is not enough to explain why these statements, among others, made the Pharisees and the scribes so angry, that they tried to stone Jesus for making himself equal with God.

We have to look back to the Old Testament to find the full reason. In Exodus 3:14 Moses asks God whom he is to say sent him to Pharaoh. YHWH gives his sacred name.

“God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” Ex. 3:14.

In Hebrew, “I am who I am” is the tetrgram YHWH, or as some transliterate into English, Yahweh. A few hundred years before the time of Christ, Alexander the Great, when he ruled the known world, started a rigorous program of Hellenization (or making everyone into Hellenes or Greeks,) The Jews started were losing their Hebrew. So in Egypt, an ambitious project to translate the OT into Greek was started, for the Hellenized Jews, and completed around 300 years before the time of Christ.

So how do you think this Old Testament, which was called the Septuagint or LXX (After the 70 or 72 translators who translated the Hebrew into Greek), which Jesus and the disciples also used, translated “YHWH or
יְהֹוָה ?

In Greek, Exodus 3:14 was ἐγω ἐιμί. The sacred name of God was translated as “I am” in exactly the same way John wrote that Jesus called himself at least 7 times, in the above statements. The Jehovah's witnesses translate "ego eimi," into the word Jehovah! But the Jews, before Christ, they translated YHWH into Greek using the words ἐγώ ἐιμί in Exodus 3:14. I think they knew what they were talking about, and certainly Jesus knew what he was talking about, when he called himself the same name as YHWH, or as some people Anglicize it "Jehovah" And that is why the Jews were so angry with him they tried to stone him. He was calling himself God. He said before Abraham was ἐγώ ἐιμί or "I, I am." And then in his teaching he repeated the fact in his parables and metaphors that he was God. Because he said "ἐγώ ἐιμί" or "I, I am" or YHWH!"

It doesn't get any clearer than that!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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#3
I should note that translators are not wrong in translating "Ego eimi" as "I am" rather than "I, I am." "I, I am" is not good grammar although it is certain good and understandable Koine Greek, with a singular and important meaning.

Sadly, this is a very important thing that became lost in translation, because Greek and English are quite different!
 
Nov 19, 2016
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#4
Why do people make it complicated.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

There is only one God,and there was no God formed before God,and no God formed after God.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

There is only one God,and Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,so He is God,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.

Plain and simple Jesus is God,for there is only one God,and no God formed before Him,and no God formed after Him,and He is God manifest in the flesh.

Jesus cannot be a created God for there was no God formed after God,and He is God manifest in the flesh.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus is God,and He is more than a visible manifestation of God,but He is an invisible Spirit,for while He showed a visible manifestation of Himself,He is outside that body as an invisible Spirit whom we can never see,and Jesus told the thief on the cross today you shall be with Me in paradise,although He went and conquered death hell and the grave,and the Son of man on earth,which is also in heaven.

Some people look at Jesus as a manifestation of God,or a prophet of God,and that is it,but He is an invisible omnipresent Spirit.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,023
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New Zealand
#5
Another part of this: Jesus forgives sin in the third person..


Eg.. Someone hits you and Jesus comes along as says 'I forgive you' to the person who hit you.

Only God can do that!

Fallen man can forgive those who sin directly against them.. but they can't forgive another person's sin who haven't directly harmed them.

Another part-- Jesus was the head of the disciples, but not one of them. If the disciples figuratively represnted the twelve tribes of Israel.. what does this say about Jesus?
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,656
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#7
outstanding, Angela :)

thank you for sharing what you've learned with us!

the Greeks of John's day... the philosophers... were looking for the meaning of all things. they concluded it was "logos".

Heraclitus said Logos was the link between rational discourse and the world's rational structure.
Aristotle (logos, pathos and ethos) said Logos was argument from reason.
the Stoics said it was active reason pervading and animating the universe.
and we don't even want to get into the Gnostics. ;)

they danced all around the Truth without ever arriving at it.

"In the beginning was the Word"... did John intentionally call us back to the creation account, do you think?

"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him..."


 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#8
For Angela53510:

Why do you think that "ego eimi" means "I, I am"?

Its true that "eimi" is only for the 1st person. But so is "am". As you cant say "I are", but only "I am", so also "ego eimi [am]" is a natural use.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#9
outstanding, Angela :)

thank you for sharing what you've learned with us!

the Greeks of John's day... the philosophers... were looking for the meaning of all things. they concluded it was "logos".

Heraclitus said Logos was the link between rational discourse and the world's rational structure.
Aristotle (logos, pathos and ethos) said Logos was argument from reason.
the Stoics said it was active reason pervading and animating the universe.
and we don't even want to get into the Gnostics. ;)

they danced all around the Truth without ever arriving at it.

"In the beginning was the Word"... did John intentionally call us back to the creation account, do you think?

"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him..."


Exactly. Original chaos has become the cosmos (ordered system, world) through the influence of the logos (order, ratio, intelligence, logic).

There was also very important philosopher Plotinus, who named the most close emanation of God "logos". But he lived century later.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#10
Concerning the I Am.....does it not imply...I MYSELF AM......?
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,656
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#11
Exactly. Original chaos has become the cosmos (ordered system, world) through the influence of the logos (order, ratio, intelligence, logic).

There was also very important philosopher Plotinus, who named the most close emanation of God "logos". But he lived century later.
ah, the 'nous'?
and the totally transcendent One?

hey! i actually learned something in those philosophy classes! :cool:

 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,656
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#12
i don't really know any Greek. :eek:

but if 'eimi' can be used alone to mean "I am", and 'ego' means 'I'... (or me, or my)...

wouldn't that support what Angela said? :confused:

the NAS exhaustive concordance says of ego:
"I (only expressed when emphatic)"

what does this mean? lol
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#13
Another way John in his gospel refutes these early heretics, is the 7 “I am” statements!

“I am the bread of life” John 6:35
“I am the light of the world.” John 8:12
“I am the door” John 10:9
“I am the Good Shepherd” John 10:11
“I am the resurrection and the life.” John 11:25
“I am the way, the truth and the life” John 14:6
“I am the true vine, my Father is the vinedresser” John 15:1


Now, while these are all expressive and interesting word pictures, but how do they prove the deity of Christ?

Unfortunately, the Greek wording does not come out in any English translation that I am aware of. But the Greek is very important. The way to say, “I am” in Greek is εἰμί or eimi. Indeed, in each of the 7 “I am” verses I listed above, the word “I” or "ἐγώ” or ego is also included. Thus, in all 7 of these “I am” statements, John actually says, “ἐγώ ἐιμί” οr “I, I am.” So again, that is “ἐγώ ἐιμί.” Or just think “I, I am!” But even that is not enough to explain why these statements, among others, made the Pharisees and the scribes so angry, that they tried to stone Jesus for making himself equal with God.

We have to look back to the Old Testament to find the full reason. In Exodus 3:14 Moses asks God whom he is to say sent him to Pharaoh. YHWH gives his sacred name.

“God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” Ex. 3:14.

In Hebrew, “I am who I am” is the tetrgram YHWH, or as some transliterate into English, Yahweh. A few hundred years before the time of Christ, Alexander the Great, when he ruled the known world, started a rigorous program of Hellenization (or making everyone into Hellenes or Greeks,) The Jews started were losing their Hebrew. So in Egypt, an ambitious project to translate the OT into Greek was started, for the Hellenized Jews, and completed around 300 years before the time of Christ.

So how do you think this Old Testament, which was called the Septuagint or LXX (After the 70 or 72 translators who translated the Hebrew into Greek), which Jesus and the disciples also used, translated “YHWH or
יְהֹוָה ?

In Greek, Exodus 3:14 was ἐγω ἐιμί. The sacred name of God was translated as “I am” in exactly the same way John wrote that Jesus called himself at least 7 times, in the above statements. The Jehovah's witnesses translate "ego eimi," into the word Jehovah! But the Jews, before Christ, they translated YHWH into Greek using the words ἐγώ ἐιμί in Exodus 3:14. I think they knew what they were talking about, and certainly Jesus knew what he was talking about, when he called himself the same name as YHWH, or as some people Anglicize it "Jehovah" And that is why the Jews were so angry with him they tried to stone him. He was calling himself God. He said before Abraham was ἐγώ ἐιμί or "I, I am." And then in his teaching he repeated the fact in his parables and metaphors that he was God. Because he said "ἐγώ ἐιμί" or "I, I am" or YHWH!"

It doesn't get any clearer than that!
Isn't John 8:58 that same "I am?" That's where I go to to prove Jesus is the great I AM that I AM.
 
L

LaurenTM

Guest
#14
appreciate this op Angela

what some people may not know and what you emphasize, is that Greek can double down on the meaning of words ...while English is pathetically short on the deeper renderings of words

there is no difference in English if I say I love my husband or I love my dog or I love sea salt caramels....I love em all but my husband comes first...no distinction though in word

as we know the, JW's have their very own translation of the Bible...which is not accepted by any other body of translators in the world, as they go out of their way to demote Jesus to a created being and not the only begotten Son of God

they teach that Jesus is 'a god' and not God

btw, it was a JW woman who got me started studying years ago as I realized I knew what I believed but could not really defend it

conversations with her was the impetus for my digging deep! into the Word...:eek:
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#15
i don't really know any Greek. :eek:

but if 'eimi' can be used alone to mean "I am", and 'ego' means 'I'... (or me, or my)...

wouldn't that support what Angela said? :confused:

the NAS exhaustive concordance says of ego:
"I (only expressed when emphatic)"

what does this mean? lol
I think its better to say that "eimi" can be used as "am" and it can be used alone, in Greek, mostly somewhere in the middle of a sentence.

"Ego eimi" is mostly used in the beginning of sentences. But it does not mean "I, I am", it means only "I am...".

Similar to other verbs. "Legó" means "I speak", "Egó legó" means also "I speak", its only another way how to use it, mostly to stress the fact its me and not somebody else.
 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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#16
For Angela53510:

Why do you think that "ego eimi" means "I, I am"?

Its true that "eimi" is only for the 1st person. But so is "am". As you cant say "I are", but only "I am", so also "ego eimi [am]" is a natural use.



In Greek, like Spanish it is always sufficient to use the verb, with the correct tense, number and person. However, eimi, is a special case. Because ego eimi is used in the Septuagint, as I said in the OP, for YHWH, or I am who I am, the Hebrews never used ego eimi. Eimi is never just "am," in the Bible. It has sacred implications. As Lynn points out later on, in fact, when Jesus used "ego eimi" in John 8:58 the Jews were going to stone him "for claiming he was God."

"58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple." John 8:58-59

Please remember that John is interweaving the story of who Jesus is throughout his whole book, and also reflecting on the many times Jesus revealed himself, with the use of "ego eimi," which was blasphemy to the Jews. The Pharisees hated him and this was the turning point in their campaign to kill Jesus for his blasphemy!

@Lynn

John 8:58 is an entire sermon on its own. One I am still working on! But thanks for bringing it up, it is vital to the whole book of John and the NT because it totally reveals the deity of Christ and the reaction he got when he said it!
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,025
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#17
Very nice thread sister angela. And it's always good to invite the Jw's as well as Mormons to discuss scripture, it's an excellent way to learn. There is also a pharse that you may have heard that goes like this? The Jw's as well as the Mormons go out witnessing for a lie more than some Christians do for the truth.

Now, I did read all the post in this thread and when you witness to the cults (or anybody else for that matter) it's best to make argument's that limit their answers to a minimum. For example, saying I would give them the "I am" verses just raises more questions. I would just limit it to John 8:58 by saying when Jesus said, "I am." why did the Jews at John 8:59 want to kill Jesus for what He said?

The following is what I posted on another site just about a half hour ago. The person I am dealing with is pretty sharp and he is a Christadelphian. Were discussing Philippians 2:specifically verses 5 and 6. His post is to a friend of mine that's why I said at the onset I am going to interject.


"The first thing in exegesis, after determining the text and possible variations, is to look at the semantic range of the words used. You cannot look at context until you have first established what the words mean (and cannot mean). Looking at how words are used in other places is one of the way we do this. It is not “statistical analysis” or “counting games”.

Firstly, we agree that morphe does not mean “nature” – that is huge progress. Most trinitarians will never admit that, even in spite of the evidence. So lets look a bit more at this verse.

Paul uses the term “form of God”. If he meant to say Jesus was God, he could simply say so. Why does he introduce the word “morphe”? Doesn't it seem strange if what Paul was trying to convey was that Jesus was God.

Secondly, he goes on to say that Jesus “did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped”. Do you realise that means Paul identifies God as someone other than Jesus? This is the norm in the NT. If Jesus could grasp at equality with God, God must be someone else. Note that he doesn’t say ““did not count equality with the Father a thing to be grasped”.

Taking the form of a servant, is not the same as taking the form of a man. Humility is not an essential attribute of a man. A man can be humble – a man can be proud. His ontological nature has nothing to do with it,, but his outward appearance does. It's what a man does that demonstrates humility. So the contrast is "form of God" vs "form of a servant" - not "form of God" vs "form of a man".

Do you want to comment on this before I continue?"

If I may, I'm going to interject in this post of yours because of what you said? I will also honor your request you said to me about keeping the subject on Philippians 2. Secondly, I also agree with py that morphe does not mean "nature." I'm also glad you said, "We are now making progress."

Now, remember you ask me about Jesus Christ always existing which I base that on Philippians 2:6 where it says, "who, although He existed in the form of God." The following I'm about to write may help in our understanding. The only problem is I cannot remember who said it. "The "form" here referred to must have been something before he became a man, or before he took upon him the form of a servant. It was something from which he humbled himself by making "himself of no reputation;" by taking upon himself "the form of a servant;' and by being made "in the likness of men."

Of course, it must have been something which existed when he had not been in the likenss of a man, that is, before he became incarnate. As well he therefore had an existence before he appeared on earth as a man, and in that previous state of existence there must have been something which rendered it proper to say (in the first place) that he was "in the form of God." This is why we have the words at vs6, "who, although He existed in the form of God."

This is where the Greek word "huparchon" comes into play which is Strong's number 5225. Here is Strong's explanation of the word. Strong's Greek: 5225. ὑπάρχω (huparchó) -- to begin, to be ready or at hand, to be Also Greek Scholar A.T.Robertson weighs in on the Philipians 2:6, http://www.studylight.org/commentari...ippians-2.html Just scroll down to vs6. There are other verses that back up Jesus Christ preexisting His incarnation as a man with Philippians 2:6. John 17:4,5 is one example.

I know that the NASB uses the word, "although" He existed etc. and that word means "nevertheless" or "notwithstanding" "in spite of the fact." that He/Jesus preexisted. Finally, you ask this question? "Paul uses the term “form of God”. If he meant to say Jesus was God, he could simply say so." I think you know better to make this statement because it's an "argument from silence." Not saying something is not proof or evidence. Which brings me to the next question? Why did not Jesus just come out and say, "I am God?" But I have a better question?

Why did not the Jews ever ask Jesus, "Are you God?" Do you know what the Jews did ask Jesus on a number of occasions? At His trial at Matthew 26:63 the high priest Caiaphas said, "I adjure You (in other words swear to us) by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ/Messiah, the Son of God." Caiaphas is asking the one person of Jesus Christ if He is (1) the Messiah and (2) the Son of God." At Luke 22:70 Jesus says, "Yes, I am." So, why is this a blasphemous offence worthy of death?

And even more interesting is what the Apostle John says at John 20:31, "but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is (1) the Christ/Messiah and (2) the Son of God. So let me close by asking the following question that brings all of this in focus as to why the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy? Whether or not the Jews are correctly or even incorrectly understanding who is Jesus Christ is not the issue. The real issue is what was it that Jesus said in the gospels that caused the Jews or upset the Jews to accuse Him of blasphemy?

The following are some examples of what I'm talking about. John 5:18, John 8:58,59, John 10:30-38, John 19:7 and at His trial at Matthew 26:60-65."

So when I witness to Jw's I usually start out by asking them, "Why was Jesus Christ accused of blasphemy?" I want to control the conversation and that does not mean I'm "rude." I let them talk and I also ask them to read the verses out loud I give them while at the same time I am praying for the Lord to open up their hearts to what they are reading. Try and keep it simple and try not to let them change the subject by saying things like, "Are you a trinitarian" etc. Keep up the good work.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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#18
Good points, Bluto! And certainly true that sometimes simplicity is best!

So perhaps this thread is directed more just to inform Christians of the substantial Biblical base for their faith? I do appreciate what you have said and have quoted here.

PS. We did translate the passage in Philippians last semester in Greek and discussed this very issue. It is another bedrock to understand what Paul was really saying! Which of course, like John, was that Jesus was God, as the Jews knew well that he was saying that. And their reason for wanting to kill him. Although God did use even that as part of his plan for the salvation of the world which he knew and foreordained before the foundation of the earth.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#19
i think the JWs get hung up on scriptures such as:
Numbers 23:19
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
Hosea 11:9
9 I will not execute my burning anger;
I will not again destroy Ephraim;
for I am God and not a man,
the Holy One in your midst,
and I will not come in wrath.

compared with:

John 8 40
40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.
Acts 2 22
22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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Australia
#20
Boy am I glad your don't have to study linguistics to know the Truth about Jesus...otherwise I'd be ruined!

Good work Angela.