Was the crucifixion of Jesus just a dastardly crime?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I

Incandescence

Guest
#1
I was thinking about the murder of Jesus, and a great number of questions arose. Is it right to believe the death of Jesus was a propitiatory sacrifice? To believe it was part of a Divine Plan, instead of just a dastardly murder? Consider: A commandment given by God is "Thou shalt not kill". So if cruel murder and hate stands against the very principle of the Divine Will that Jesus taught, why would God (Whom Jesus is a Part) encourage evil by participating in it through the crucifixion? Is it not strange to assume God would seek to cure evil from the earth by perpetrating the same evil, i.e., conspiring with man to commit a brutal murder of His Son Jesus? Thus plotting to murder a Part of Himself in cold blood? Is this not a type of Divine suicide? In other words, using evil (the premeditation of murder) to work with evil (conspiring with man) to commit evil (the crucifixion), which is somehow meant to cure evil (redeeming man). Would this not necessitate God breaking His own commandment if we assume this was His plan?

In addition, the bible documents Jesus said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do..." Is it not true that only what is wrong needs forgiveness? Why would forgiveness be needed for something that is right?
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
764
113
39
Australia
#2
I was thinking about the murder of Jesus, and a great number of questions arose. Is it right to believe the death of Jesus was a propitiatory sacrifice? To believe it was part of a Divine Plan, instead of just a dastardly murder? Consider: A commandment given by God is "Thou shalt not kill". So if cruel murder and hate stands against the very principle of the Divine Will that Jesus taught, why would God (Whom Jesus is a Part) encourage evil by participating in it through the crucifixion? Is it not strange to assume God would seek to cure evil from the earth by perpetrating the same evil, i.e., conspiring with man to commit a brutal murder of His Son Jesus? Thus plotting to murder a Part of Himself in cold blood? Is this not a type of Divine suicide? In other words, using evil (the premeditation of murder) to work with evil (conspiring with man) to commit evil (the crucifixion), which is somehow meant to cure evil (redeeming man). Would this not necessitate God breaking His own commandment if we assume this was His plan?

In addition, the bible documents Jesus said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do..." Is it not true that only what is wrong needs forgiveness? Why would forgiveness be needed for something that is right?
I'm assuming you don't know the purpose of His sacrifice? In the old system, year by year a sacrifice was made for the atonement of peoples sin's. God came down Himself and became the sacrifice Himself, once and for all. Hebrews 9:22 without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness.
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
6,877
1,949
113
Germany
#3
what?? Jesus died as the sacrifice for our sins.. he didnt break his commandments..
Plus It is written '' Thou shall not murder " if you look at the original texts.. I am too blown away by the ''God murdering his son breaking his own commandments etc" of your post to want to explain why Jesus had to die the way he did
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,777
25,971
113
#4
Jesus was innocent, so His murder as you call it was wrong, and yet, He came into the world as a sin offering, that men through Him might be saved, for He fulfilled the requirements of the law and paid the propitiatory price for the sins of the world through His death. Scripture furthermore attests that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world, and He Himself acknowledges it was for this very purpose He came into the world. No, it is not suicide. Men did to Jesus as God knew they would, since the darkness of our hearts is fully known by Him. He sees the end from the beginning.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,777
25,971
113
#5
You err also to say that God conspired with man to bring this about, as God did no such thing. God being omniscient simply knew that man hates the Truth found in God; mankind wishes to have their own way rather than living as God would have us do. Many of the prophets were killed by God's chosen people; one of Jesus' parables tells how He knew He would likewise be killed. Jesus came that we might be reborn Spiritually to a life more abundant, free from the sin that has corrupted all of creation.
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
271
83
#6
No one killed Jesus. They were just used in the plan laid out from the beginning. He offered Himself to bear our sins at the perfect time. There was not one person who could have touched Him if he had not willingly gave up His life for us. He could have called on legions of angels to protect Him, as He once mentioned.

The call for the Father to forgive them was for all of mankind's sins. And it was done by the shedding of His own blood - the perfect Lamb of God.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,777
25,971
113
#7
No one killed Jesus. They were just used in the plan laid out from the beginning. He offered Himself to bear our sins at the perfect time. There was not one person who could have touched Him if he had not willingly gave up His life for us. He could have called on legions of angels to protect Him, as He once mentioned.
I thought it was Satan who suggested that to Jesus?
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#8
Where does the bible say that Jesus HAD to die to save us... not that he did die or it was in fulfillment of scripture that he would die, but where does the bible say mankind could not be saved unless Christ died AFTER the foundation of the world?
 

DaveTheRave

Senior Member
May 28, 2014
125
8
18
25
#9
Where does the bible say that Jesus HAD to die to save us... not that he did die or it was in fulfillment of scripture that he would die, but where does the bible say mankind could not be saved unless Christ died AFTER the foundation of the world?
Jesus himself asked the father for him to not be killed if it was at all possible. So it clearly had to happen at that stage

[SUP]39 [/SUP]"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matthew 26:39
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#11
Jesus himself asked the father for him to not be killed if it was at all possible.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matthew 26:39
Agreed but that had to be done to fulfill old testament scripture which in my opinion the scripture was written because God knew the future... if that makes any sense.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,777
25,971
113
#12
In addition, the bible documents Jesus said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do..." Is it not true that only what is wrong needs forgiveness? Why would forgiveness be needed for something that is right?
How do you see the murder of an innocent Man as being right? Do you also see it as being loving, merciful or just? God does indeed embody all those attributes, and it was for that reason that He manifested in the flesh, to die the agonizing unjust death of an innocent, as the spotless Lamb of God, that we might attain to life more abundant through our faith in His propitiatory sacrifice, made on our behalf out of His great love for us. The Holy Spirit of God reveals these Truths to people, that we may accept Jesus as the Living Word of God and the light and life of men.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,299
16,294
113
69
Tennessee
#14
The reason that Jesus died on the cross was to pay the price for our sins. He did not die to cure evil from the earth. What makes you think that God encouraged evil? Your understanding about the biblical plan of salvation is quite weak.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#15
I was thinking about the murder of Jesus, and a great number of questions arose. Is it right to believe the death of Jesus was a propitiatory sacrifice? To believe it was part of a Divine Plan, instead of just a dastardly murder? Consider: A commandment given by God is "Thou shalt not kill". So if cruel murder and hate stands against the very principle of the Divine Will that Jesus taught, why would God (Whom Jesus is a Part) encourage evil by participating in it through the crucifixion? Is it not strange to assume God would seek to cure evil from the earth by perpetrating the same evil, i.e., conspiring with man to commit a brutal murder of His Son Jesus? Thus plotting to murder a Part of Himself in cold blood? Is this not a type of Divine suicide? In other words, using evil (the premeditation of murder) to work with evil (conspiring with man) to commit evil (the crucifixion), which is somehow meant to cure evil (redeeming man). Would this not necessitate God breaking His own commandment if we assume this was His plan?

In addition, the bible documents Jesus said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do..." Is it not true that only what is wrong needs forgiveness? Why would forgiveness be needed for something that is right?
Let me simplify it for you.
Man has rebelled against God who they do not know.
Man believes he is ok, or no worse than the guy next to him.
He thinks if God had to live like this, he would be the same.
Accepting we are rotten, God does not care, he put us in the junk heap, so what if we sin.

Jesus walked sinlessly. He gave love freely and lived the fulfilment of Moses law, healed
the sick, spoke with authority and truth, and still they killed Him, wanting their own power
rather than bow the knee to the Lord.

And when God who was innocent, took all the grot people could through at Him, still said
forgive them, they know not what they do, salvation was gained.

If your sin is the sin of those who murdered Christ you are forgiven. If you accept His
reality of love and death is enough to show you who God is and that He can change you
to walk as He walked, then you have forgiveness.

The cross is a chosen sacrifice, but also it is an example, a promise and a contract.
There was no other way to prove mans fallenness, even in following the law of Moses,
and Gods love than this. Yes we can be friends with God, and He with us, but it is
a narrow path, it has many difficulties, but it can be walked.

The more I learn of my King the more I am humbled, this is the wisdom of God and
not man, or his invention, or his thought. And he chose me from the beginning of time
like all the elect, to walk into eternity with Him, because we did not know what we were
doing, and His light is the light of life itself.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,777
25,971
113
#16
Jesus himself asked the father for him to not be killed if it was at all possible. So it clearly had to happen at that stage

[SUP]39 [/SUP]"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matthew 26:39
Did Jesus not of His own free will choose to go to the cross on our behalf out of His great love for us? He submitted always to the will of the Father, for He and the Father are one in heart, mind, Spirit, and purpose. Everything He said and did, Jesus repeatedly told others came directly from God, and was for their own good, to further their understanding etc. The humanity of Jesus I can fully understand being loathe to suffer as ignobly as He knew He would, and yet He was set upon the path to do so from His very birth. The devil was no doubt hoping Jesus would not go through with it. I cannot imagine dying in such a way. The Romans chose crucifixion because of its ability to afflict the maximum amount of pain in a lengthily protracted torment of agony. It was an extremely cruel way to put anyone to death, which is exactly why they did it :( That Jesus could love to that degree, not just to submit Himself fully to it on our behalf, but to ask forgiveness of those participating in it, perpetuating the atrocity of such, is humbling. Do we possess His capacity to forgive?
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#17
Where does the bible say that Jesus HAD to die to save us... not that he did die or it was in fulfillment of scripture that he would die, but where does the bible say mankind could not be saved unless Christ died AFTER the foundation of the world?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son so that whoever believes in Him, will not perish but have everlasting life.

So loved - this is the only way to show everything to man by love and not power and
domination. God's wisdom is before our eyes, we read it and dismiss it, which is why
we, me included are so blind. The things of God are here and now, yet we often look
with unbelieving eyes. The throne of grace listens to us, what a privilege.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,640
1,099
113
#18
You err also to say that God conspired with man to bring this about, as God did no such thing. God being omniscient simply knew that man hates the Truth found in God; mankind wishes to have their own way rather than living as God would have us do. Many of the prophets were killed by God's chosen people; one of Jesus' parables tells how He knew He would likewise be killed. Jesus came that we might be reborn Spiritually to a life more abundant, free from the sin that has corrupted all of creation.
except this:

Him (Jesus) delivered up by the determinate plan and foreknowledge of God, you put to death, having crucified Him by lawless hands (Acts 2:23 Berean Literal Bible)

not that God conspired with men. but He willed it. :)
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
6,877
1,949
113
Germany
#19
Jesus gave himself freely. He was not forced at all. He did it out of love.
And to set us free of sin, giving us a chance into the kingdom of God, he had to die carrying all unrighteousness and pain. To be released from ALL sin, there had to be a holy human sacrifice without sin. Just like in the OT animals were able to be killed to be set free of some sins, some sins had the death penalty as there is nothing clean enough to wash you free so Jesus freely took it on himself so we can.
Also the bible states that when he was hanging on the cross (tree according to scripture) he became a curse so we can receive and go into the blessing of God.
His sacrifice is ultimate and holy enough to cleanse all sins. In that moment he died and rose again, death was conquered so that no one anymore had to die for their sins but can be forgiven and inherit the kingdom of God when accepting him.

God didnt murder Jesus, nor did really the Jews. They have no fault for it has been prophesied and Gods divine will for us.
God cannot break his own word or laws. Nor can he lie or deceive. It is not in his nature. Just impossible for he is holy and righteous.

Thats my short summary
 
Nov 19, 2016
502
23
0
#20
God knows the human nature and knew they would go against Christ for what they thought were contrary ways,especially with the Roman Empire controlling in that area,for there would be Jews against Jesus,and the Roman Empire was against Jesus,and their method of execution was the cross,so it would happen,which there is people against Christ today,and if Christ were here today it would probably happen again,although more of an execution like Martin Luther King Jr.,or John F. Kennedy,or Ghandi,for the world likes to bump off people like that who are contrary to their evil ways,and go against the grain,and when you represent high morality and goodness,and harmony among people,you will rattle some feathers of the big wigs that like control and not revolting.

Jesus was contrary to them so they would be against Him,and Jesus was not the only one executed for going against the grain of a power or nation.

God knew the cross would happen because of the nature of people,so it can be put this way,God allowed it to happen without intervening to stop it.

Like God said if Israel was disobedient for a duration of time He would allow other nations to go against them,like Babylon,but then would punish that nation for doing so,which it is not God that does it but allows it to happen,and knows the nature of people will do it,which God does not do it Himself,but allows it to happen,and it is the evil spirits that instigate it.

Like God said He hardened Pharaoh's heart,but He did not touch Him to harden his heart,but He knew the nature of Pharaoh and Pharaoh did it to himself,or was influenced by an evil spirit.

1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If the devils would of known that the cross gave salvation to mankind putting them in the good graces of God they would of not instigated the cross.

God knows the nature of people,and knew they would be against Jesus and have Him killed,especially with the Roman Empire controlling the area,so He allowed it to happen.

God says He will cause something to happen,but some people say why would He do that,but it is not Him directly,but He allows it to happen by the instigation of evil spirits,and the nature of people.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart,but was against Him.
God said I will bring Babylon against Israel,but then punished Babylon for it.
I will give My Son as a sacrifice,but then is against those that opposed Him.
God said I will cause Ahab king of Israel to fall at Ramothgilead,but it was a lying spirit that put lying words in the prophets mouths,which were false prophets.

God did not do it directly,but allowed it to happen,and the nature of people,and the instigation of devils,will cause it to happen.

God gave us His Son,and knew the nature of people,and the instigation of devils,would have Him crucified,but He allowed it to happen,but did not do it directly,for thou shall not kill.

This is something to consider.The Roman Empire controlled in that area and did not like that Jesus stirred up a lot of trouble,and dissension,and the Jews were afraid of the Roman Empire and did not want them to go against them because of Jesus.

If the Roman Empire did not rule there,and it was only all Jews,would they have accepted Jesus on a grander scale,for even Nicodemus said we know that you are a teacher of God,for no man can do these miracles,except God be with Him,and many believed but were afraid to openly admit it,lest they be put out of the synagogue,or the Roman come down on them.

God allowed it to happen at the right time,when Israel because of their disobedience was ruled by another nation,causing the right conditions for them to be against Christ,and have Him executed.

God did not do it directly,but allowed it to happen,knowing the nature of people and their ways.

Jesus offered Himself but as a human could not commit suicide,but He knew they would be against Him and have Him executed,and He did not fight it.
 
Last edited: